Moving from e-bicycle to moto. Help?

SHiFT

100 W
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
140
Location
Fremont, Ca
Hi all,

I built the bike attached, and have been slowly planning a move to a full sized motorcycle. I want to build something lightweight like the Husky also attached.

I have been looking at the mars 4201 and Kelly controller combos people have been doing, and I was just wondering if this is powerful enough, or if there is something else you might suggest.

My basic specs are:
50mph or so top speed
1 hour ride time
150-200 pound frame with motor and batteries
200 pound rider

I've never done a build this big and the moto stuff is different from what I learned while doing research for my bike. Are these figures even possible without a ton of batteries?

My first bike was kind of a trial. You'll notice it has no pedals - I always wanted that to evolve into this, and I am finally starting the second build.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

SHiFT
 

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If you're looking for 50mph plus and a fairly light frame, then you have a few options depending on what you want to do. If hub motors are your thing, then a Cromotor overvolted to 100V should give you a fair amount of speed (or you could move to the Enertrac MHM602 or 603 for a better guarantee of sustained high-power handling. That said, those setups are quite heavy and expensive; an Enertrac motor will run you $1300 by itself before you even start looking at a controller or battery pack. The more typical solution for something like this is a brushless Etek motor like the ME1305 (good for 10kW peak, so a little bit wimpy for a 200lb vehicle but not bad) or the 0913 (good for 10kW continuous at 48V and 30kW peak at 96V). They're both cheaper than an Enertrac (the 10kW peak one is $500 and the 30kW peak one is $825), but they'll spin a bit fast and require gearing down by 5-7:1

Both of those should be drivable by a big Kelly (something like the KBL96251, which can do 250A peak and 100A continuous at 96-100V nominal), and the other option is to build a Lebowski controller (field-oriented control, built and assembled by you). Lebowski will sell you the preprogrammed microcontroller for 25 Swiss francs, and then you send the PCB file he provides to a fab house, assemble the main logic board, and then design and assemble a custom power stage to go with it. It's a fairly time-consuming process, and it works best if you either know a lot about electronics or are willing to learn, but you can build a 120V-capable Lebowski controller that can handle 400A peak and 200-250A continuous for significantly less money than the $900 big Kelly with identical specs. Also, the Motenergy website recommends sinusoidal and field-oriented control schemes over trapezoidal setups like the Kelly or Infineon machines; it claims that trapezoidal controllers may shorten the motor's service life and threatens to void the warranty if they are used.

As far as batteries are concerned, you can get a lot of Hobbyking LiPo for cheap. A 4.5kWh pack (88.8V nominal, 100.8V charged, 50Ah) can be assembled from 60 of the 4S 5000mAh 20-25C Hobbyking LiPo bricks arranged in a 6s10p configuration, and that will cost you only $1350 plus shipping in exchange for what should be a 30-40 mile range if you ride it hard and something closer to 60 miles if you ride around 20-25mph in stop-and-go traffic. That pack will weigh something like 80lbs completely assembled, and unless you treat it well you run the risk of a massive LiPo fire in your frame, but it should give you range. Furthermore, 50Ah of "25C" Hobbyking LiPos can probably handle 4-500A discharges without it being too hard on them, so that paired up with a 400A peak controller should work well.

That's the quasi-traditional route, using a motorcycle frame and motorcycle-sized motor. There may be another alternative (that I'm looking at now, but don't necessarily have the funds or the time to try out yet) centered around building something similar to, but a bit bigger and heavier than, a Qulbix Raptor 140. The idea I had was to use the Revolt RV-120 in a mid-drive configuration at 72-96V for 15-20kW peak and 6-8kW continuous, then use an 8-speed IGH as a jackshaft to the final gear reduction (effected by a geardown ratio somewhere between 2:1 and 4:1 between the jackshaft output sprocket and the final drive sprocket on the rear wheel). I was thinking of powering that with a 150V-rated Lebowski controller and using the LiPo configuration I just described, then building the rest around a frame based on an upsized DH mountain bike. The goal would be to keep weight below 130lbs, and have top speeds on the order of 60-70mph but with reasonable mixed-offroad capability.

That last option is attractive to me because it lets me save money (the RV120 is $280, and an 8-speed IGH is $150-200 more; thus I can basically have an 8-speed 20kW peak setup for the same price as a 10kW peak direct drive Etek), and the weight penalty for that setup is maybe 12-15lbs, as opposed to a 22lb direct-drive ME1305 or a 35-lb direct-drive ME0913. I'm not sure if it can be done, and I'm definitely still very thoroughly in the iterative planning stage (come up with ideas, kick them to the ES community, see what feedback I get, revise from there) and far from starting to build. I wish you the best of luck with your build, though! :twisted:
 
I would recommend a mid drive build over a hub motor. I would use John from CRs hub motors http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=46898

As a controller, Kellys are good if all you want is fine control but they suck at what electrics are famous for....instant torque. They have shit take off power. My recommendations for this power level would be http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190 read the whole thread and then ask for a invoice for what controllers you want and your shipping info and they will reply quickly. They cost alot but it has a built in BMS, Charger, display and so many feature packed controls its crazy.

Hobbyking lipo is good but even better would be the 18650 cells that are starting to come into play now. Just make sure you get them spot welded into parallel groups when you order them to make it all much simpler. A little bit more expensive but smaller, lighter and alot more resistant to problems.

Above all else start off with a GOOD motorbike, do not do what i did with my build and use a cheap chinese POS. It will work and work well, but it will suck when you decide you want to upgrade and have trouble selling the bike to a new owner.
 
Thank you for the excellent responses.

I agree, mid or direct drive over hub is more my thing. I have considered an IGH or the nuvinci cvt for the current bike shown. My concern there was torque. Would an IGH be able to handle the torque and rpm of an Ebike? As a jackshaft, could it handle changes in drive chain torque caused by suspension flex? Very smart idea, though, for weight. You also get a transmission where otherwise there is no option (that I know of). Maybe consider the Pinion internally geared crankset: http://pinion.eu/en
I may follow your lead there. Hope that's OK, seems a good compromise.

It would be a very attractive option if I could reuse the components on my current bike. I have an astro 3210 and Recumpense gearing, Phoenix 160 controller. I just don't think it could handle the weight and speed. What do you think is the most I could get out of my current equipment?

I have seen the 18650 cells a lot recently. I'll do some reading on how they compare to lipo packs, which I'm more familiar with.

Thanks for all the ideas.
 
No IGH or NuVinci is even close to being up to the task of pulling a motorcycle load. Unless you plan to use your bike for 2 totally different uses (eg You need highway speeds, but also need to carry heavy loads slowly up steep hills), then variable gearing is unnecessary. You're better off investing the weight in more motor.

For riding on smooth paved streets, nothing beats the silence of a hubbie, and it leaves so much more room for fitting batteries.
 
OK, so to get a transmission - I think I'm going with a 50cc transmission. Ecobogan has already started down this path, even using the (big) step up from my 3210, the Astro 3220 for an eBike.

I have a bid in on a 6 speed Honda Cr85 bottom end, basically it's the crank, rectifier, clutch, starter, and transmission. Total weight of these engines is a out 26 lbs. Minus the head, crank, and excess components, I'm hoping to get that down to about 20, or less.

I plan to remove the excess components and swap the engine for a brushless.

Some concerns, maybe people have input, noting them here either way:

I could always use power, would an ME1305 be optimal at lower RPM, I could reduce it maybe. Perhaps a different motor meant for peak performance in the 3000 to 5000 RPM range.
I'd still like to save some scratch and use any of my existing gear: Castle Creations Phoenix ICE 160 HV, Astro 3210, Recumpense Reduction drive - I could possibly rig the Recumpense drive to the transmission instead of going "full scale" with an etek or similar.
The transmission is a manual shift auto-clutch. Not exactly sure how the clutch works. I think it's centrifugal, but what happens when I downshift - I would think I'll need a freehub in the driveline somewhere to avoid "engine" braking.

Thoughts about this driveline?

Thanks,

SHiFT
 
Why do you think you need a transmission? Gassers have tranny's because they need them. Electric motors don't suffer from the same narrow torque band issue. Even Tesla tried a 2 speed before learning that it's best to go with a single speed. All that's required is a properly sized motor with controller(s) to drive it, and since you're after only 50mph top speed the gearing would be low enough for 20-30lbs of electric motor to be fine even off road with a simple and durable single reduction of motor straight to the wheel.
 
This is why I am here. Thanks for the question. So, I could be wrong, or overestimating the advantages here, but:
My thinking is that I could get away with a lower power setup if I had gears to get up to the speeds I want.

The ratio of this transmission, in 6th, is about .83:1.

So, my thoughts are that instead of stringing out a high power motor and gearing it for top speed, I could keep the power needed more modest and use gearing to get the speed without losing low end grunt.

Couldn't I use a lower power controller, extend the range on one charge, and still have the cruise speed?

I'm watching the Revolt RV-120 thread closely as I would look to use one of those probably. I'll be experimenting with my current components in the meantime.

how far off-base am I here?

Thank you,

SHiFT
 
The missing part of the thought process is that other than on hills or during acceleration, the most power is needed at max speed due to the geometric increase in wind resistance. That means if you try to stretch top speed of the lower power motor, it will be much less efficient at speed. Trains run on electric motors, and they have a fixed gearing.

Multi-speed gearing is helpful if your bike is used for 2 different uses. eg Near highway speeds on the street, and going slow with high loads like offroad in mud or soft sand or hilly terrain, or simply hauling heavy loads. Think of it only being necessary like the high range and low range for 4wd of an SUV.

Trying to put a transmission bandaid on an underpowered system results in less performance and lower efficiency. A sufficiently powered system has enough torque across it's operating range that no multi-speed is needed. Tesla's are single gearing. Brammo may still have a tranny on it's consumer bike, but that's more for the bike to have a similar feel as a gasser. Brammo's race bike is fixed gear. Zero's are fixed gear, and they simply gear their off-road bikes to a lower top speed for better efficiency at the lower speeds and higher intermittent loads in the dirt and mud.

It takes a while to come around, because it's not intuitive. Virtually all of us dreamed about how to do at least 2 speed tranny's light and durable enough to handle electric motor torque. Once you experience real continuous pull from 0 on up speed, watching cars and motos fall behind as soon as they cut their torque at the wheel by shifting to 2nd, then you'll never go back. The examples of trains and Tesla's and Zero's should be enough to convince, but it's not until you just grab the throttle and go that you're sold.
 
Having messed around with the gears on some small CR50s, CR65s, and CR80-85 boxes, I can tell you how small those little things are. While the Honda transmissions are over built and take all the abuse you can give them, a CR85 makes maybe 18 footpounds of torque at the peak of it's power band, after race tuning the motor.
My lowest powered 350w ebike's motor probably puts out 40 footpounds of torque.

An electric motor powerful enough to run a motorbike would strip the gears out of a CR's box.
 
Thank you for the input. That was the missing piece of logic, surely. It makes a lot of sense now to go direct.

What I'm looking to do, as it turns out, is comparable to a MotoPed in size and weight, but built for a different type of riding.

I am looking to have some punch left to use at 50 MPH if needed to pass or avoid obstacles - Would everyone support Arod's recommendation to go with an Etek 0913?

Isn't there a calculator floating around out there that could help me figure out how much power I need? I recall using it before, it took a lot of things into consider: tire size, tooth count, gear reduction, wind resistance, desired speed, etc.

Thank you again for your help.

SHiFT
 
Can I borrow your thread? What motor options there are for dual Max-E controllers? Im planning to do conversion for Yamaha YZFR 125 and wondering motor options.

EDIT: I was thinking hubmonster in mid mount and dual max-e or dual sabvoton. It migh be easier to just use ME1003 and Alltrax AXE7245. Any opinions?
 
John in CR said:
Even Tesla tried a 2 speed before learning that it's best to go with a single speed.

Didn't Tesla drop the 2 speed gearbox due to they could not make it reliable enough ? , when shifting the torque from the motor would just destroy the gears so they dropped the 2 speed option with the promise that when they make the gearbox reliable enough that all existing tesla owners will have a free upgrade. Of course they maybe saying that single speed is now the best way to go just to try to wiggle out of the promise :D
 
OK, old thread, but I am slowly working on this.

Could you help me compile a solid setup?

Again, goal is for an average 25-35 mph, max of 50 moto. To be used for city riding with some short, but slightly steep, half-mile hills and stop and go traffic. 50 mph would only be burst.
6 foot, 220lb rider. Bike weight in the 150 lbs range (ambitious I know)
Unfaired.

I am thinking of going with the Agni 95R.
72V 200A, 300A maximum - Alltrax controller
3.5 KWH battery pack using Tesla 18650 cells

I have many questions if you do not mind?
At 72V, should I put my second Agni on order now, so it's ready when I burn out the first one?
At 14400 Watts, will I get the power out of the Agni 95r to cruise around 25-40 mph, and take hills without slowing? Watts to HP calculator says "definitely" but I'm seeking experienced opinions.
Would you think I need to reduce the Agni or can I direct drive?
Are the Tesla cells a good choice over HobbyKing Lipo packs? What XsXp configuration would you recommend?
Which Alltrax do you recommend for this setup?

Thank you very much.

SHiFT
 
Enthusiastically following this post!

I was going to ask around the same question. I currently own an electric bicycle that can max out at 40mph. The last thing I want to do is make an electric motorcycle this is just an expensive, underpowered hack of the comparable ICE version. :x

To me, if I can't thumb-my-nose at my motorcycle buddies I shouldn't even try.
 
i think the agni is a great choice. i don't have much experience with the motor, but a little - and it has performed flawlessly. it has a great reputation and an impressive power to weight ratio. zero motorcycles used to use the 95r. i was lucky enough to get a 2011 zero s for $1,200 or so (with a dead battery). after upgrading the battery to lipo and bypassing the MBB to allow the motor to get about 400 amps from the controller i was running peaks near $20kw. the weight was slightly lower than stock at about 250lbs. it was a pretty fun bike, plenty of power to take off before all the cars at a light or speed up and pass a car.

between 10-20kw on a bike that weighs between 150-200lbs would be an absolute blast to ride. a few things that might dictate what components you use would be an estimated total price range that you are thinking about for the build. another hurdle will be the design/modification of whatever frame you decide to use. to keep the weight down, probably a 125cc dirt bike frame would be sufficient. the only problem with this is mounting a mid drive motor in the frame and still having room for a large enough battery. direct drive would definitely help the battery situation but probably wouldn't be recommended if you care a lot about handling or off-roading. if it is mainly for commuting/street use, direct drive should be more than sufficient if you get a big enough motor. john in cr's hubmonster would do the job no problem. it would also give you the future option to increase the power to 30+kw if you air cool it
 
Thanks for the input.

Glad to hear more good things about the Agni.

As for drive, I am thinking mid-mount, with a motorcycle belt drive system from a street bike or a conversion kit - if the components are not to heavy. Something like this one from a BMW f800:
BMW_F_800_ST_Swingarm.jpg


Your excitement about the project gets me more motivated to do it. Thanks!

SHiFT
 
SHiFT said:
OK, old thread, but I am slowly working on this.

Could you help me compile a solid setup?

Again, goal is for an average 25-35 mph, max of 50 moto. To be used for city riding with some short, but slightly steep, half-mile hills and stop and go traffic. 50 mph would only be burst.
6 foot, 220lb rider. Bike weight in the 150 lbs range (ambitious I know)
Unfaired.

I am thinking of going with the Agni 95R.
72V 200A, 300A maximum - Alltrax controller
3.5 KWH battery pack using Tesla 18650 cells

I have many questions if you do not mind?
At 72V, should I put my second Agni on order now, so it's ready when I burn out the first one?
At 14400 Watts, will I get the power out of the Agni 95r to cruise around 25-40 mph, and take hills without slowing? Watts to HP calculator says "definitely" but I'm seeking experienced opinions.
Would you think I need to reduce the Agni or can I direct drive?
Are the Tesla cells a good choice over HobbyKing Lipo packs? What XsXp configuration would you recommend?
Which Alltrax do you recommend for this setup?

Thank you very much.

SHiFT

Hi Shift,

If you follow this route I recommand an Alltrax 7245 controller, here is old motorcyle i have made with specs and i'm as 225 pounds rider :

http://www.evalbum.com/2824

With a LIPO pack on a rig like this you will get a pop wheelie machine, Alltrax 7245 are good pour 90 Volt (if i remmenber correctly) and the Agni 95R is good for 84 Volt max. At 67 Volt i get a top speed of 90 Km/h easy but this motorycle was gear for trails and enduro style riding in sand mostly, you can get higher top speed, with a higher voltage battery pack and correct gearing, Doctorbass smoke a CRF 450 R fourth stroke with it (flat road), and we still have fun talking about it, year's after, I hope it help, good day!
Black Arrow
 
BlackArrow said:
Hi Shift,

If you follow this route I recommand an Alltrax 7245 controller, here is old motorcyle i have made with specs and i'm as 225 pounds rider :

http://www.evalbum.com/2824

With a LIPO pack on a rig like this you will get a pop wheelie machine, Alltrax 7245 are good pour 90 Volt (if i remmenber correctly) and the Agni 95R is good for 84 Volt max. At 67 Volt i get a top speed of 90 Km/h easy but this motorycle was gear for trails and enduro style riding in sand mostly, you can get higher top speed, with a higher voltage battery pack and correct gearing, Doctorbass smoke a CRF 450 R fourth stroke with it (flat road), and we still have fun talking about it, year's after, I hope it help, good day!
Black Arrow

Awesome. Nice bike! Excellent advice. This makes me wonder one thing: I can never pull more V from the battery than it is configured for, correct? I could only spike my Amps beyond safe levels right?

Thank you,

SHiFT
 
Hi Shift,

Thank you since that I build this bike long ago… Correct for the voltage and the question you ask about Amps. Be sure to get 84 Volt at full charge (Maximum voltage) to protect the Agni 95R (Maximum RPM rating for this motor).

Very important to use a 95 "R" at this voltage, I never set the Alltrax AXE 7245 at full amps (450) mine was set at 325 Amps if remember correctly and have enough power to climb anything.
And you can change it easily by programing, to get less or more torque. I strongly recommend keeping this value low for your first ride, because this motor can kick on your butt with ease with too much amps.

Good day
Black Arrow
 
To those interested, I've started an official build thread for this project here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=69333&p=1045446
 
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