MultiSpeed/HubMotor Design Option

[eP]

Show us any coreless motor that can produce more torque than the specs of this disk motor at low RPM for its size..

Show me the reason Randy.
I dont need record torque at stall point, what i need is high efficiency at low rpm/low speed.

If my coreless motor will not be able to give me enough torque so i will be able to add the rest amount of torque at low speed.

Do you understand me Randy ?

 

[EbikeMaui]

Show us any coreless motor that can produce more torque than the specs of this disk motor at low RPM for its size..

Show me the reason Randy.
I dont need record torque at stall point, what i need is high efficiency at low rpm/low speed.

If my coreless motor will not be able to give me enough torque so i will be able to add the rest amount of torque at low speed.

Do you understand me Randy ?

yea you have to pedal. I don't like having to.

 

[eP]

...
Do you understand me Randy ?

yea you have to pedal. I don't like having to.

Maybe or maybe not - it depend on slope grade.

Even if i will must pedal it is no problem for me at low speed and at short distance especially at high efficiency.

Keep in mind i'm looking for motor for assistance not for records breaking.

You will don't have to pedal but your efficiency will be badly poor al low rpm and high torque so your range will be short.

My motor allow me the same amount of energy to use in more effective way, so i will be no tired at longer range - keep in mind: you will have to pedal at 100% when your battery will be empty.

My motor will be more flexible: at almost any speed it will be high efficient. You will have to moving at relatively high speed to be able get long range.
So you will don't get the same freedom of choice (what i want speed at the moment) as i could get from efficient (coreless) motor hub.

Do you still understand me ?

 

[Drunkskunk]

...
Do you understand me Randy ?

yea you have to pedal. I don't like having to.

Maybe or maybe not - it depend on slope grade.

Even if i will must pedal it is no problem for me at low speed and at short distance especially at high efficiency.

Keep in mind i'm looking for motor for assistance not for records breaking.

You will don't have to pedal but your efficiency will be badly poor al low rpm and high torque so your range will be short.

My motor allow me the same amount of energy to use in more effective way, so i will be no tired at longer range - keep in mind: you will have to pedal at 100% when your battery will be empty.

My motor will be more flexible: at almost any speed it will be high efficient. You will have to moving at relatively high speed to be able get long range.
So you will don't get the same freedom of choice (what i want speed at the moment) as i could get from efficient (coreless) motor hub.

Do you still understand me ?

So what is this Magical Motor of yours, Ep?

 

[EbikeMaui]

No magic. Just a motor designd for the job I expect a motor to do..
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ecyclemaui

 

[eP]

...
Do you understand me Randy ?

yea you have to pedal. I don't like having to.

Maybe or maybe not - it depend on slope grade.

Even if i will must pedal it is no problem for me at low speed and at short distance especially at high efficiency.

Keep in mind i'm looking for motor for assistance not for records breaking.

You will don't have to pedal but your efficiency will be badly poor al low rpm and high torque so your range will be short.

My motor allow me the same amount of energy to use in more effective way, so i will be no tired at longer range - keep in mind: you will have to pedal at 100% when your battery will be empty.

My motor will be more flexible: at almost any speed it will be high efficient. You will have to moving at relatively high speed to be able get long range.
So you will don't get the same freedom of choice (what i want speed at the moment) as i could get from efficient (coreless) motor hub.

Do you still understand me ?

So what is this Magical Motor of yours, Ep?

What is this ?
Try read this topic again and again ... and maybe again.

After that you will understand the Magic is the Efficiency.

Cheers.

 

[Miles]

What is this ?
Try read this topic again and again ... and maybe again.

After that you will understand the Magic is the Efficiency.

Cheers.

Did you not understand the question, eP?

 

[Lowell]

What is this ?
Try read this topic again and again ... and maybe again.

After that you will understand the Magic is the Efficiency.

Cheers.

Did you not understand the question, eP?

Maybe eP is actually Randy in disguise. :lol: :lol:

 

[Miles]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

I determined a while back that Randy is a synthetic personality. A computer generated recursive algorithm. The continual looping of the same data & the inability to deal with new input when a direct question is put to him are the indicators that you're argueing with a computer program. This must be an older generation personality sim because the newer ones are a lot more engaging.

eP would be the same running program with a different set of baseline variables. The output of one provides the input for the other & yer off to the races.

:wink:

 

[eP]

What is this ?
Try read this topic again and again ... and maybe again.

After that you will understand the Magic is the Efficiency.

Cheers.

Did you not understand the question, eP?

Did you not understand the answer Miles ?

Big coreless motor is a right candidate for very efficient one (at wide range of rpm/speed).

The cheaper option is two motor set. (Rear freewhell geared -only one gear- and cheap motor hub for front wheel 40xx for example ).

But i'm still looking for different opinions.
I'm looking for m/Wh record rather than any speed record or climb record.
So i'm not different copy of Randy.

My goal is quite different.

Cheers.

 

[Miles]

Yes, I understood your answer, eP.

I think the original question was trying to tease out something a little more specific about "my motor"..

Big coreless seems a good idea. I hate the 2 motor solution.

I'm still not absolutely clear what your goal is....

 

[eP]

Yes, I understood your answer, eP.

I think the original question was trying to tease out something a little more specific about "my motor"..

Is this very important if i have personally any motor or not ?

I think we talking about ideas first of all.

Big coreless seems a good idea. I hate the 2 motor solution.

I'm still not absolutely clear what your goal is....

If you hate 2 motor configuration so tell us why.
One of my goals is wide range of speed at high efficiency without multiple gears which i have to switch.
And keep in mind: at my 2 motors idea only one motor working at a time and each one have own task to do (rear - high torque, front - silence, speed and regen capability )
I'am aware it is little of topic but is still related.

The all discuss is futile if we dont specify motor's dimentions and needed power.
Axial flux ( disc motors ) takes advantage if diameter is big enough 'coz side (flank) area is big enough for many poles and high torque.
The side area is proportional to diameter^2.

It is futile to discuss x53xx versus cheap axial flux motor.
The discuss should be better than x53xx (130% diameter for example) versus better than cheap etek (again 130% diameter of cheap etek).
The last can gain 69% more torque and 30 more rpm at 69% increase in weight for example.

 

[Miles]

Is this very important if i have personally any motor or not ?
I think we talking about ideas first of all.

"Personally" no, but you seem to make light work of the implementation of your idea, when arguing with people that have more realistic solutions.

Maybe my prejudice against having 2 motors is similar to your prejudice against mechanical gearing? I suppose my principal objection is weight, particularly with an "either/or" set-up. Is it possible to have series-parallel motors with BLDC?

Surely, if you're intending to pedal, you'll need a few gears - so why not put the motor through them, as well?

You hint at commercial possibilities. Poland is a member of the EU, so you're restricted to 250Watts cont. Your large coreless may solve the speed/efficiency issue, but it won't be legal. Your 2 motors would be limited to 125watts cont. each. With 250Watts to play with, surely variable gearing is the way to go, no?

 

[Drunkskunk]

yea you have to pedal. I don't like having to.

Maybe or maybe not - it depend on slope grade.

Even if i will must pedal it is no problem for me at low speed and at short distance especially at high efficiency.

Keep in mind i'm looking for motor for assistance not for records breaking.

You will don't have to pedal but your efficiency will be badly poor al low rpm and high torque so your range will be short.

My motor allow me the same amount of energy to use in more effective way, so i will be no tired at longer range - keep in mind: you will have to pedal at 100% when your battery will be empty.

My motor will be more flexible: at almost any speed it will be high efficient. You will have to moving at relatively high speed to be able get long range.
So you will don't get the same freedom of choice (what i want speed at the moment) as i could get from efficient (coreless) motor hub.

Do you still understand me ?

So what is this Magical Motor of yours, Ep?

What is this ?
Try read this topic again and again ... and maybe again.

After that you will understand the Magic is the Efficiency.

Cheers.

I Don't think Ep understood the question. No, not at all.

Maybe he's just keeping it a secret. Thats it, like all good magicians, his efficancy is a secret. He doesn't want to share it with us, he just wants to taunt our motors with his knowledge that his magic motor is superior.

Or perhaps Ep has no motor at all?

Or maybe he's on a mythical quest for the Magic Motor of Efficancy. Thats it, the MMoE is laying right next to the Holy grail and Elvis in some secret cave guarded by a 72 year old virgin and Chinese battery vendors.

Untill you can provide a name, specs, and a picture of your self with this Mythical Motor and a keyboard on your head, then I'm not going to believe in your magic motor.

 

[eP]

Is this very important if i have personally any motor or not ?
I think we talking about ideas first of all.

"Personally" no, but you seem to make light work of the implementation of your idea, when arguing with people that have more realistic solutions.

My ideas are still ideas so far - i didn't claim light work of implementation.
In fact i'm looking for cheap mechanical implementation of 2 chain rear drive.

Maybe my prejudice against having 2 motors is similar to your prejudice against mechanical gearing? I suppose my principal objection is weight, particularly with an "either/or" set-up. Is it possible to have series-parallel motors with BLDC?

I'm sure you need 2 separate controllers or 2 at one board.
For my configuration i don't need 2 controllers as i dont need 2 motors working at the same time.
So what i need is simple switch for phases and hall signals and only one controller - if both motors be BLDC.

Surely, if you're intending to pedal, you'll need a few gears - so why not put the motor through them, as well?

Because i need gears. Rear motor's task is generating torque so it should work at the lowest gear all the time. Switching gears at high torque is not a easy task - if you want do it reliably it need a cost but 2 motors config should be as cheap as possible - it is my idea.

You hint at commercial possibilities. Poland is a member of the EU, so you're restricted to 250Watts cont. Your large coreless may solve the speed/efficiency issue, but it won't be legal. Your 2 motors would be limited to 125watts cont. each. With 250Watts to play with, surely variable gearing is the way to go, no?

As far as contoller will limit the power even largest motor will be legal. It is limit for cont. power not for motor's parameters.

My two motors will be limited the same way to 250W each as it will be phisically impossible run them togheter at the same time.
Even if you use additional controller and run them both only faster can give you the torque.
Rear motor(slower - for low speed band/range ) at one gear cannot give you enough rpm from the same battery as front direct drive.

I hope stupid 250W limit will be changed soon after as electic assistance will be much popular and much safe.

 

[Miles]

My two motors will be limited the same way to 250W each as it will be phisically impossible run them togheter at the same time.

You'd better check that, rather than just assume it's the case.... it's not a question of logic..

I hope stupid 250W limit will be changed soon after as electic assistance will be much popular and much safe.

I very much doubt it. Concessions on the "low-powered moped" category seem to be the only hope...

 

[eP]

My two motors will be limited the same way to 250W each as it will be phisically impossible run them togheter at the same time.

You'd better check that, rather than just assume it's the case.... it's not a question of logic..

The limit is on cont. power, so you cant add power from different periods of time.
Temporary power is unlimited as far as i know.

I hope stupid 250W limit will be changed soon after as electic assistance will be much popular and much safe.

I very much doubt it. Concessions on the "low-powered moped" category seem to be the only hope...

I don't care about rules. My idea is not for busines it is for DIY, so anybody could do limits what will need.
This topic is not for law.

You still didn't explain why you hate two motors solution. Extra weight is not very important reason for me if you can gain efficiency and flexibility.
The only seriuous reason is mechanical issue.
(How reliable mount one gear freewheel to the rear hub - and cheap enough )

 

[Miles]

The limit is on cont. power, so you cant add power from different periods of time.
Temporary power is unlimited as far as i know.

As I said before, it's not a question of logic...

You still didn't explain why you hate two motors solution. Extra weight is not very important reason for me if you can gain efficiency and flexibility.

Extra weight may not be important for you, but you asked for my opinion. Absolute weight is important to me.

Also, the idea of switching between 2 configurations of motor seems, well, rather intellectually squalid - that's rather an ethereal reason, though... If it was a series-parallel set-up, I might warm to the idea.

2 motors = 2 things to go wrong. (and almost dual redundancy, it's true .

One motor has to go in the front fork. I agree with Lowell, on this. I wouldn't risk it for myself...

Hub motors = less effective suspension.

 

[Lowell]

The front suspension is very important on any bike, and there might not be enough adjustment to work with the extra hub motor weight, although I've never tried. Just getting the compression and rebound damping, spring rate and ride hight sorted out was enough work!

 

[EbikeMaui]

My point for making this topic is to point out more reliable and more efficient systems that are not presantly or rarely used on any commercail ebikes or in complete kit form. Considering Cost, Added efficiency, Added Power Vrs weight, Added power and torque Vrs PRICE ! Quality and power plus Added Reliablity and Longevitity Vrs price and hastles of failures. Why are ebikes so expensive and How much do most 750 watt rated systems on complete ebikes cost ?
What are the markets? Kits ? complete ebikes? Off road ?
How many people could make a motor mount or battery mount to use TODAYS best technology by using off the shelf parts at the best efficiency available in $ per Kw in the ebike/motorcycle range that has power and efficiency for ANY Size of rider for ANY hills,wind, or conditions or speeds to 50 mph IF NEDED. with 1 speed. NO Maintenance ! at a cheaper price than a Bionix motor of 350 watts.All you will need to know is how to make a mount and hook up wires after you buy the available parts to have the BEST ebike. Or better than you can buy in a KIT.

 

[Lowell]

Why don't you change the industry and market your own products if they're so much better than everything else.

 

[EbikeMaui]

Why don't you change the industry and market your own products if they're so much better than everything else.

What I have made on my own is compareble to products that I have been showing everyone. Why go into production when you guys think that you already have the best and pretend the E-tek brushless 5 kw system won't out perform in every way any ebike hub motor made to date with the same weight ??

 

[Lowell]

Why don't you change the industry and market your own products if they're so much better than everything else.

What I have made on my own is compareble to products that I have been showing everyone. Why go into production when you guys think that you already have the best and pretend the E-tek brushless 5 kw system won't out perform in every way any ebike hub motor made to date with the same weight ??

Exactly, so you can kindly stop telling people what they should buy, or should have bought. If someone could make $$$ selling your system, it would already be in production. If there's money to be made knocking someones product off, the Chinese will be on it like white on rice.

If there was a real demand, you would probably be selling kits by the container load. The fact is there's little demand, and nobody is filling containers with anything but hub motors. (I could be wrong on this, so anybody feel free to point me to a mass market geared/multi-chain/whatever kit that is available to purchase in container quantities)

 

[eP]

Why don't you change the industry and market your own products if they're so much better than everything else.

What I have made on my own is compareble to products that I have been showing everyone. Why go into production when you guys think that you already have the best and pretend the E-tek brushless 5 kw system won't out perform in every way any ebike hub motor made to date with the same weight ??

Randy is right. Average guy know far to less about different options wchich are possible.

I think we should divide e-bikes by categories and describe the best options for each category.
Precise description should include motors parameters, loses for heavy load, costs, efficiencies, mechanical mount difficulties and costs, etc.
All positive and negative sides.

In other way we will do futile discuss, comparing good drives for quite different categories.

So lets begin series of topics.
Let Lowell describe his e-bike for speed, all negative and positive, costs and what still is needed to changefor better.
Randy can do the same for climb category at limited power (less then 2 kW for example).
If Lowell is sure his e-bike can beat Randy's vehicle at that category too, so could describe all again but also assume power limited to that category limit.
We can have categories by performance and/or by price.

What you guys thinking about that idea ?

If we will have a few descriptions for different categories, so admin could make a table for easy comparision for them.
This way we all gain very good (and very useful) synthetic info.

Regards