My Clyte 5304 tried to kill me today

[mvadventure]

En route to the golf course this morning, a beautiful warm morning, I ran into a "scattered" shower that was a torrential rainstorm with no way out. Twice. Everything soaked, no place to go, no place to hide and auto traffic whizzing by. I wound up going about three and one half miles in this stuff.

For the last mile and a half, despite throttle position, the motor ran wide open and the only way to slow it down was to apply the brakes. Rain so thick you can hardly see, no place to hide, no way to get off the road and a wide open throttle.

Finally I was able to find a safe spot and turn the key off and had to pedal the last half mile or so. No fun. Ready to spit and say bad words. Don't want this to happen again but this was a FAST shower, one minute fine, next minute Niagara Falls.

Any clue as to what caused this?

Mike

 

[CGameProgrammer]

Isn't it obvious? The rain causes a short-circuit. Time to open up and diagnose the controller.

 

[knoxie]

Hi

Sounds like water has got in your throttle? hall effect throttle? its a very good idea to fit a switch to the brake input, I used a mini motorbike stop switch and wired it in to the brake input, if the controller ever runs, I just slide my thumb across and it goes off, of course the safest way is to break the power totally but I dont feel the need to do that.

I am pretty sure its your throttle, I dont use hall effect throttles partly for this reason and will only use Magura throttles, they are a lot more money but are so much better made and a lot safer than halls, some of the older hall throttle magnets used to jam causing the same condition.

I would swap it out for a Magura.

Cheers

Knoxie

 

[NickF23]

This has happened to me a few times. I ride a fair amount in the rain, most of the time the bike works normally but sometimes some strange things happen. A few times I've had the throttle go on max, at other times it just cuts out intermittantly. I don't think any water get in the controller as I've waterproofed it. I imagine its the throttle wires shorting out either from water in throttle itself or in around the plugs.

Personally it doesn't bother me too much as I've its easy to cut the power on my bike by pulling out one of the cables. The best setup, i imagine, is to have a kill switch on the handles bars. I'd be curious as to what other people do.

 

[knightmb]

The best setup, i imagine, is to have a kill switch on the handles bars. I'd be curious as to what other people do.

I have a kill switch directly to the battery pack wired to a "stealth" switch on my handlebars in case the worse happens or I want to roll downhill without resistance from the motor. You can get 10 gauge wire that is stranded makes it very flexible and handles the current just great. Mine uses a 20 amp switch I got from the local Home Depot, never had it overheat since it's rated at 120 volts @ 20 amps. My controller is a 20 amp, so I don't know what would happen if a 35 amp controller were put on it.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

How are the Maguro throttles connected to the Crystalyte controllers?

 

[D-Man]

Crystalyte does make electric "safety brakes." I have them and they work great. Plug right into the controller. Last time I checked they were $20. Actually they are part of the e-bike law here in Calif. There is a little more flex in them compared to stock but still work fine.

 

[Ypedal]

Can you please tell me if your thorottle is an LED model or not ?

 

[xyster]

FWIW, I have the no-LED crystalyte hall-effect throttle. Just to be safe after hearing of similar incidents, I sealed all its joints with silicon goop. I've ridden the x5 in pouring rain dozens of times without incident, but nothing I think quite as severe as described here.

 

[mvadventure]

Lots of times ignorance is bliss. I googled maguro throttle and came up with a workable zip, nada, gas only. My existing throttle is a thumb device with cruise control on the other side of the handlebars and brake levers that turn everything off. In this case though they didn't turn anything off but I am really, really, really, really glad I put new pads on last week.

If LED throttle means a Red power light, green power light and yellow almost no power left light, then I have a LED throttle. If it means something else I remain ignorant.

I will be slightly less ignorant shortly. My watts up meter finally came this afternoon and I plan on installing it over the weekend. Thanks to fellow member Liberator I now have pics of his install last weekend to guide me. Confidence abounds. At least until the explosion.

One change I will make is controller position. For the moment is sits on the top of the battery pack, screw side up. I'm going to put a plastic bag over it so it can remain outside and stay cool but not accept rain. I also carry zip lock bags to put over the electronic controls when I'm parked but have moved them to the front basket so I can get ready access to cover at least the throttle and cruise control next time.

The kill switch is a good idea and one I will explore but I'd rather not pedal so I'm going to make every effort to keep stuff working.

Mike

Mike

 

[Ypedal]

The LED throttles like you have ( yes, red, yellow orange types ) can leech power from the LED wire and do exactly what you described. I'd swap it out for a non-led type personally.

I'm still looking for a case of the non-led throttles doing this, but i ask everytime i hear about it.

Having a sandwitch bag and a rubber band on the bike for occasions like this might be a good idea.. slide the bag over the bar and band it down.

Edit : It's Magura, not Maguro..

http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/th-magura.htm

They are a Pot throttle ( Potentiometer ) , different than Hall in some ways i personaly canot explain.. Fetcher ???

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Rather than specifically how a hall sensor functions, I think the most significant difference to the end user is that a hall throttle is non-contact.
A pot has a wiper-arm that makes physical contact & can wear out a groove over time.
Also they're wired in differently.

 

[fechter]

A hall throttle output varies from about 1 volt to 4 volts as you go from zero to full throttle. A Magura will go from 0 to 5 volts in stock form. To use a Magura throttle, you need to add 1k or so fixed resistors to two of the legs so the output matches a hall throttle. 1.2k would probably be better.

In the rain, voltage from either the +5v hall supply or the battery voltage from the LED indicator was bridged by water and caused an erroneous signal on the throttle. This could happen inside the throttle body or at any connection. If the wires going into the actual hall sensor are sealed with silicone or epoxy, it should work underwater without shorting.

The same thing could possibly happen with a Magura throttle, but their bodies are much better sealed against rain.

I use a handlebar mounted switch that controls a big relay to kill the main power in the event of runaway.

 

[Rassy]

Fechter, I need to do one test, but first could you give me (a thousand opinions) an opinion?

I have a toggle switch that allows me to go from having my three motors connected to their controllers to each being connected to motor braking, using relays rated for 800 Watts at 12 Volts. I never throw the toggle during throtle application since I am going for motor braking.

So my question is, in an emergency (throtle stuck), would the relay still break contact even though it is potentially at 36+ Volts by 35 Amps? I have been told that the relay contacts could weld together under these conditions and I am not anxious to destroy the relays. I would not be applying the brakes because the toggle has a middle off position where neither the power nor the braking relays are activated.

Thanks,

 

[fechter]

When you have lots of current going through a relay and you open the contacts, it can draw an arc. If the contacts open far enough, the arc will extinguish. In either case, there's no welding that goes on when you open the contacts. They might melt, but don't usually get stuck.

It's when you close a contact with too much current that it acts like a spot welder and can get stuck.

You have 3 motors?
When braking, is the current going to the batteries or to a big resistor?

 

[fechter]

The LED throttles like you have ( yes, red, yellow orange types ) can leech power from the LED wire and do exactly what you described. I'd swap it out for a non-led type personally.

I'm still looking for a case of the non-led throttles doing this, but i ask everytime i hear about it.

The LED throttle has one wire coming from the controller with full battery voltage on it. It takes less water to cause a problem with the higher voltage. You could disconnect the battery wire from the throttle at the connector or inside the controller to disable this. The throttle runs on 5v, which might be less prone to going runaway.

It shouldn't be too hard to take apart the throttle and waterproof the connections.

 

[xyster]

Due to this long-known issue with hall-effect LED throttles, I specifically opted for this cheaper, no-LED version:
http://www.poweridestore.com/Throttles/Half-Twist-Grip-Throttle
and then sealed it anyway.

 

[Lock]

but nothing I think quite as severe as described here.

Try salt water... As two inches of heavy road slush under a Currie scoot.
Scoot powering on w/switch off, random shorts cutting power in/out...
Impromptu wheelie stands while waiting for lights etc.
Been there, done that. Can afford to be amused w/only 350w and no one else around at the time. But hey, what do the Aussies know about slush!


Next scoot will be completely marinized. What're C-Lytes like through deep puddles? Will they get water inside (even if axle opening is sealed?)

tks

Lock

 

[Liberator]

I will be slightly less ignorant shortly. My watts up meter finally came this afternoon and I plan on installing it over the weekend. Thanks to fellow member Liberator I now have pics of his install last weekend to guide me. Confidence abounds. At least until the explosion.

Somehow I feel I need to insert some disclaimer in here. HA! All I can say is triple check your connections.

Man, I'm glad you're ok after this full throttle incident. This is one of the reasons I ride my regular bike on days when the chance of rain is greater than 20%. Still, sounds like you were caught in a freak storm that no weather forecast would have predicted. Guess I better think about a kill switch or about which cables I can reach to pull from my riding position!

 

[Rassy]

Thanks fechter. My motor braking is very special purpose, because I live on a steep hill that terminates at a blind corner with rough pavement. So I just connect each motor directly to 3 130W headlight bulbs (parellel). It works very good, but I can only use it at about 11 MPH max to keep from blowing the 12 Volt bulbs. Future project will be to replace the bulbs with something just as effective, but variable and usable at any speed.

 

[TA]

Some French people had that kind of uncontrolled bikes under rain conditions. I think that most of the problems were linked with the low voltage (signal) connectors = throttle or PAS connectors. Lots of people here did weld the wires.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

You could just cover them with duct tape or electrical tape to form a seal. Much easier.

 

[mvadventure]

What I've done so far and so far I haven't been caught in the rain again.

Put silicone caulk in the channel on the motor the wires come out of to make it as watertight as possible.

Sealed the wires leading into the brake handles, cruise control and throttle with more silicone caulk.

Enclosed most of the wires, where possible, with a flexible wiring cover

Taped the connectors from the throttle, cruise and brakes where they enter the controller

Turned the controller over so the screw portion is facing down

I have not figured out how to waterproof the slide portion of the thumb throttle but I now have a couple extra zip loc bags in my front basket to cover everything with. A new "watts up" has also been installed and mounted on the handlebars and since it's mounted nowhere near the end of the bar so a ziploc bag will fit I still have to figure out how to keep it dry. For the moment I have several nylon ties handy to secure a ziploc bag in place. All this should work unless it simply goes from sunny to torrential again and I don't get time to cover everything.

One more thing, I ordered (aint online ordering wonderful?) four semi disposable rain suits and will keep one of those with me.

Between the tools, ziploc bags, rain suits, rags and other important stuff like tire repair kit, and compressed air cans and water, I'm rapidly running out of room.

But, the EV grin doesn't go away. A little ride last evening of 10.7 miles through my subdivision at mostly low speeds used 233 WH and 4.9 AMP hours and using my calculations based on stuff I've picked up I would have had a safe range of about 18 miles with my 48 volt SLA's. The last three miles of this ride though were at 25 - 30 MPH which certainly affected range.

Thanks to everyone for their help and ideas.

Mike

 

[fechter]

I have not figured out how to waterproof the slide portion of the thumb throttle but I now have a couple extra zip loc bags in my front basket to cover everything with. Mike

If you really want to make it waterproof, you need to take the throttle apart and put silicone around the legs of the hall sensor, then put it back together. It's kind of a PITA, but might be worth it. It should work underwater if properly sealed.

Also remember that rain tends to follow along wires and can lead water inside things. If the wires enter from the bottom of an enclosure, gravity will prevent water from getting in.

 

[xyster]

Also remember that rain tends to follow along wires and can lead water inside things. If the wires enter from the bottom of an enclosure, gravity will prevent water from getting in.

Timely discussion as I was just sealing up my new Currie. I noticed many large spaces where water could easily spray inside even though the wires entered from the bottom.

Sealed with silicone:
-Holes nearby the screws and around wires entering the controller's enclosure.
-Crevices around the main power switch and main power receptacle.
-The top of the seat post was wide open.
-Hole just below the seatpost collar.
-Gap around the headset spacers where the handlebars and forks meet.
-External throttle assembly (not waterproofed, but hopefully water resistant)

Where I've sealed parts that must move against each other, like around the headset spacers, after the goop dries I take an exacto and cut a fine line to create a silicone hood.