My experience with Prodeco electric bike

[bike567]

I'd like to share my experience with Prodeco bike, this information might be useful for prospective buyers.

Prodeco comes with the engine mounted - no need to assembly in your backyard.
I bought "Folding Prodeco Mariner 2012" and now it has been used for more than one year.

During this year I had the following issues:

1. The kickstand was not properly attached to the bike frame - it was moving little bit. Pretty soon it fell down and since the rider didn't pay attention to collect it from the road, I had to buy a new kickstand. This was not an easy task since most of after market kickstands would not fit (they would touch either the disk brake or the pedal, or being too tall). Finally I was able to find a good sturdy one at "E-Cycle Electric Vehicles" - I had to pay CAD40.

2. The battery pack is supported by two aluminium bars. In few months one bar broke. Being in warranty, I send an E-mail with a picture and they sent me new bars. These aluminium bars are breaking periodically due to fatigue. Today (after more than one year) they broke again. See attached "Broken bar" picture:


These bars break near the end:
View attachment 1


I think they need to re-design this part.

3. After one year of moderate use by a light rider the saddle looks like this:


4. After few months the engine stopped working. After I sent back the engine (I paid shipping), it proved that the engine was OK but the controller was broken. They sent me a new controller and the engine was working again. The controller is placed near the battery. It seems that they used SMD technology on their PCB instead of Through-hole technology. I am afraid that SMD is prone to defects on vehicles (due to vibrations).

5. I am not sure if this is bad or not but it looks like the battery pack is not placed symmetrical (and cannot be adjusted due to aluminum bars I mentioned at point 2 above):

It looks tilted to the left.

6. This is a foldable bike - the handlebar can be twisted in order to "pack" the bike. Several times the rider compained that the handlebar twisted while riding ! The locker looks quite flimsy compared with a Dahon folding bike which I had before.

 

[amberwolf]

The rack problem...All I can suggest is to look around at the various rack discussions here on ES, as several have thoughts about how to strengthen existing racks or to design new ones that won't have the same kinds of failures.

Plus, if the mass on the rack isn't centered on the mountings for it, then every vibration or bump that would normally push it just vertical is probably going to instead push it to the side, which will stress any of the mountings or parts not designed for that (probably all of them).

SMD vs Thru-hole: I doubt it has anything to do with which technology was used, as SMD is the most common on any controller I've seen or used, and actually is less susceptible to vibration than thru-hole, becuase it is not held off the board by it's legs, which if the part has enough mass and the legs are thin enough, will wiggle and break the part off the board eventually, unless it is glued down just like the SMD parts are (which are either glued down pre-soldering, or are held by the solder itself). Most likely it was simply the type of failure many will see--electrolytic capacitors degraded by heat inside the controller, or broken off the PCB at the thru-hole leads because of the vibration, and then the FETs exposed to voltage spikes and RF bursts they werent' designed to take, and the FETs then failing in one or more ways.

No way to tell without actually disassembling and diagnosing the failed controller, though.

Several times the rider compained that the handlebar twisted while riding !

Which rider? (for both the kickstand and this)

 

[bike567]

1. Thanks for suggestion related to rack. If you know a (thread) URL it will help me greatly. It is not obvious for me at which store to go and ask for these bars.
I would prefer to not buy the bars from Prodeco anymore - since they will break again. With different bars may be I can center the rack as well.

2. More that 25 years ago at electronic faculty a teacher told us he attempted to use SMD PCBs on electric train engines. He was quite enthusiastic about SMD but his attempt failed due to vibrations (inside electric locomotive there is a harsh environment for electronics). 25 years is a lot of time in electronics, may be the SMD technology had progressed and that statement is not valid in these days anymore. I am happy to hear from you that SMD is not a concern anymore.

3. I am not the main rider for this bike - another younger person is riding it. Yes, it was the same rider for both events - the kickstand and the twisted handle. I explained him the folding/un-folding process. The complain about twisted handle bar while riding was few months ago. Again, if I compare with Dahon (non-electric bike) the lock system in Dahon was sturdy compared with this one. I cannot say it does not work, but you have to pay more attention.

This is the locking mechanism:


As we can see the spring is not strong enough to move the locker fully back in the lock position. We need to push it manually to make sure it goes to the end and then secure the lock mechanism. It is working, but rider needs to pay attention every time. At Dahon, the spring was strong enough to click back the interlocking mechanism in the proper position.

 

[youkogurl]

Thanks for sharing your experience with Prodeco. I was curious about their ebikes.

 

[amberwolf]

1. Thanks for suggestion related to rack. If you know a (thread) URL it will help me greatly. It is not obvious for me at which store to go and ask for these bars.
I would prefer to not buy the bars from Prodeco anymore - since they will break again. With different bars may be I can center the rack as well.

I don't know anywhere to buy what you need for your specific rack, since what I'm talking about is redesigning the rack based on your specific bike and usage/loads. I doubt you can go out and buy something that will do what you want right off the shelf--you'll probably have ot modify somethin or make it from scratch (or have someone else do so).


I don't have a URL for the threads, but using the search function it should be possible to find the specific posts by me (and others) discussing rack design flaws (almost any one of them would probably tell you what you need to know). Chalo has also discussed the issues. Most of the discussions are replies to people asking about broken racks, or putting heavy batteries/etc on racks, or asking what rack would be best for such things.

I am happy to hear from you that SMD is not a concern anymore.

Oh, I'm sure that it could be a concern, depending on how the PCBs are laid out, supported, etc, because flex of a PCB with SMD parts on it would be able to break the solder joints. However, even back in the late 1980s (and probably before) SMD was being commonly used in commercial aircraft systems, without problems from these issues (except where assembly wasn't done correctly, but that is an assembly issue and not design/usage). The A320/A340 flight computer used almost entirely SMD components for the processor/memory/IO boards, and those were put thru quite a lot more vibration in testing (at extreme temperatures and delta-T) than they'd see in actual use, and probably a lot more than on a rail- or road-borne vehicle would put them thru either.

It doesn't mean it can't break...but it does mean that if it's designed right and built right it isn't the SMD itself that is an issue.

As we can see the spring is not strong enough to move the locker fully back in the lock position. We need to push it manually to make sure it goes to the end and then secure the lock mechanism. It is working, but rider needs to pay attention every time. At Dahon, the spring was strong enough to click back the interlocking mechanism in the proper position.

That and the other issue with it would make me not want to ride that frame, because it implies the entire connection is probably not nearly as "solid" as it should be. If the lever/handle is soft enough to do that, then just as likely the rest of it is as well, based on my experiences with the results of poor manufacturing processes.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

One guaranteed way to solve the battery rack problem would be to scrap it completely in favor of a triangle mounted battery bag. Ilia at ebikes SF will fab custom bag and frame mounts. Ok, I guess you could keep the rack for carrying other stuff. The wire loom is long enough and the triangle is big enough....

 

[bike567]

Thanks all for your suggestions.
Today I fixed the rack issue in the following way:
First I found a store which sold me the aluminum bars:
http://www.metalsupermarkets.com/

The advantage for above store is that they have a retail location nearby - I could get the bars right away.

The price was good (55 cents / ft, and each bar had one foot). They had a long bar and they cut for me the one foot pieces. Very friendly service.
The only fine print at this store is that each purchase must be CAD12 at minimum. So I bought other stuff, too.

Also the smallest output diameter (OD) was half inch (compared with the original 0.4 inch) so I ended up with thicker bars (which is not bad).

After I flattened each end with a hammer and made the two drills for bolts, I was able to repair the bike as shown in this picture:


I corrected the tilt issue as well:


The original bars were squeezed too hard at each end and that was the weakest point (where they broke).

For the new bars I flattened them gradually with a hammer to avoid that issue.

I would like to comment another area - the seatpost. They have suspension (it moves up and down). But the mobile post (which holds the saddle) also wiggles left and right few degrees - I can feel the saddle rotating left and right little bit when I get on the bike. I hope this would not be a safety issue. Here it is the picture of that seatpost:

 

[dogman dan]

That's typical of pogo stick seatposts. Has to be somewhat loose to work, and still be cheap to make. I can't see it being unsafe though.

Pretty clear that saddle was a cheapie too. Nearly every bike that ever gets into my hands, first thing to go is that horrible saddle. Since it's where the rubber meets the pants, a good saddle is always money well spent. Then I often replace handlebars, since I like a taller, sit up straight ride.

Get going on your upgrades, and make that bike fit you good.

 

[linberl]

FWIW, my struts broke recently after about a year; Prodeco sent me the newly redesigned struts. They no longer use flattened aluminum. Now it's an aluminum tube with stainless screws and lock nuts. So far, it is less "bouncy" and seems to work better because it is height adjustable to correct for any battery shifting.

 

[miro13car]

went to Prodeco web site, 2013 Mariner is just $1000, what can you expect.
Made In USA??? that is general term, from what parts, sure not from Western brand parts.
But the pictures are really ugly , this locking mechanism seems to bearly holding the frame , latch looks it bearly holds on.
Why battery is so high up above wheel? They could not find proper luggage rack, or they could not find CHEAP proper luggage rack. this rack is for 36inch wheel.
I can only imagine how this heavy battery wobbles.
On other side , how electric parts are doing, motor, controller ??
, if they look sound and work /most of the time/ maybe it is worth to invest in your PRODECO maybe $300-$500 in quality components.
I would research motor on GOOGLE before upgrading components.
This motor is not BAFANG well known.

 

[redlight007]

IMO Prodeco is cheap garbage bike. Expect to have product failure and have customer service on speed dial

 

[miro13car]

Crashing review, real experience one.
Upgrade components, but only if electric drive/motor+controller/ is reliable.
seems motor is great ??????? .
Why not to put that $1000 you spent toward $2000plus good quality ebike??

 

[Coch1025]

I have an Outlaw SS. I just took the battery apart and modified a frame bag, and got rid of the cheap rack that was there. I have gone through 4 racks. The soliton was to get rid of it and I did. Photos are to big to upload , I will figure something out to share.
I just ordered a crystalyte crown motor with a 72 volt set up , performance controller , and v3 computer. This is going on the Outlaw SS . I'm going to make a bike that prodeco should of made. Photos to come

 

[casemon]

@Coch1025
If the photos are big, just resize them! Or easier, use a free photo hosting site, like http://min.us; no size limits, no account needed, just drag your file over and you'll get a link to share here.

Am in the same boat as you, previous Prodeco bike (Phantom X2, now stolen) went through too many broken battery cases & racks (3 cases & 2 racks and i don't ride it that hard), so with new Outlaw SS will simply re-mount battery to the center and fix the problem once and for all. Tried sharing the reality of the current battery case and design with Prodeco but no reply to the detailed design feedback

Since, have been searching for an appropriate frame bag; mind telling us which frame bag you went with and/or have a link?

Also please tell me that the bag is available in bright orange! haha

 

[Coch1025]

Here is my Custom Prodeco Outlaw SS with Crystalte Crown tc80 , 72 volts 3000 watts , single gear
I outgrew the 48 volt -750 watt , rear battery pack, 8 speed outlaw , so I modified it to what I thought it should be.

 

[Coch1025]

Here is another photo

 

[KjdNyc]

After reading this thread I'm so glad I bought a Stromer!

 

[corbretti]

I also have a Prodeco Mariner G+ 24 v model..My first ebike that I bought used for a good price..I have driven it every day, It has almost replaced my car..
I have outgrown the bike already but It renewed my interest in bicycles..I love riding my bike, I really do..
So I am a middle aged man, almost 50..was overweight, high blood pressure..I have all the toys, Harley,Convertible etc..This bike introduced me to bicycles again..Its nice to just sometimes use the power to go to the store etc or if you feel in the mood to pedal or both..Its nice to have options..I have lost 60 lbs, am now very fit and no blood pressure Issues..all because of a ebike

Pro..I would rather take my bike than any form of transportation..No parking Issues,No Insurance,Theft is covered by house Ins..And It's just plain easy to hop on and drive off..
Con..It has poor range but that is to be expected for the battery size..I bought a second battery..
Pro..I like the Factory Finish vs a home built.
Con..I cannot understand where all the weight comes from at 42lbs..It's heavy to throw on a bus etc..Very awkward to handle.
Pro..I think It looks better than most..


So..moving forward..The Prodeco is a introduction to ebikes. You cannot expect any more from the bike.. It's a cheap way to try one out to see if you really like ebikes..and chances are..you will love it..For a 1,000 new..It's affordable enough to give it a try..I recommend buying a Prodeco as a introduction knowing you will outgrow it quickly and can get a good return on investment if you sell it, something a home-built has a weak point in doing..re-sale

The other thing it does is let you know what you want from your bike when you want to move forward with a homebuilt..

I am starting with a Dahon Dash P18..Very light,Very strong Fold with 18 gears..21 lbs
Mid mount 1000 watt 48 V motor
I want a quick release mid frame mount battery pack with single shoulder strap, 30Ah so I can detach it to load the bike on to a city bus easily..The 27 lb bike with motor,etc, not including battery in both hands for control and the battery pack slung over my shoulder so all I am dealing with is a 27 lb or so fold bike..

I think as technology advances, the bicycle has a good shot at replacing the car as urban transportation..And at the same time, making the population healthy again,look at what It did for me..since the pedals are there, you tend to use them, this happened to me..now I only use the motor when I am tired from pedaling,or want the wind to cool me down so I do not arrive at the office all sweaty.. but I pedal most of the time now..The 100 mile bike is already a Reality..thats 5 hours at 20 mph..

The Prodeco bike has exceeded my expectation..in fit and finish, yes the locks,etc are of ok quality say vs Dahon which has premium hardware..But my Dash P 18 Non-ebike..cost as much as a Prodeco ebike..You get what you pay for..and a 1,000 dollars is cheap for a factory ebike of this quality with a 2 year warranty...as for stuff falling off etc..you should go over any bike weekly if you ride It daily and check it over..I have not had any failures with the product,except for the advertising claims on range..Expect 7 miles at the most under flat conditions when only using power..maybe 10 to 11 miles if you pedal to aid you..Hills etc..the 24 or even the 36 cannot handle anything but Flat grade..

 

[icerider]

I bought an early Phantom X with the 12Ah (giant long rectangular) battery in pretty good shape used for $500.

I got the bike in October 2013, tuned it up, cleaned and lubricated as necessary, replaced the gawd-awful folding pedals, checked all the various nuts/bolts for proper torque and noted that my battery support tubes had already been replaced with heavy(ish) rectangular aluminum rods.

Since then I have ridden 1040 miles (as of this morning) mostly in pre-dawn hours at temperatures from 28F to 50F. BTW, my battery lives indoors and is NEVER that cold. The one time a fully charged battery spent the night in the garage, the reduction in battery performance on the morning ride was noticeable. My typical morning ride is 8-12 miles with wide open throttle and pedaling like mad. Average speed on a hilly (up and down) circuit is ~17mph. Not too bad for an old (62), fat (260lb) guy. I have been careful to keep an eye on the various nuts and bolts because about half my circuit is on rough pavement which causes high vibration levels and tended to loosen some of the machine screws (til I put loctite on them). I have had exactly zero problems with the bike, except, once the motor connector vibrated loose enough to cause a total loss of power and "cogging" bad enough to scare me to death. Located the problem, re-mated the connector, and taped over it to give it a little more reason to stay together. That was ~600 miles ago, no problems since.

Range on my circuit (without pedaling) is about 20 miles at an average speed of 14mph. With heavy pedaling and mid-range throttle range goes up to ~30 miles with an average speed of 16mph.

I just LOVE this bike for riding for exercise in the morning. I can ride flat out, do 10 miles, return home with legs shaking so bad it is hard to hold the bike up, and be entirely confident that no matter what happens, I can still get home. It lets me put 100% into EVERY hill. So far I have lost 20 lbs and I am now riding large parts of the circuit without motor input at all.

It is not nearly as much fun riding with other people (mostly other old fat guys) since even a little throttle will just leave them behind.

So recently I had an opportunity to buy a Trek Valencia+ for a good price ($600) and after riding it for about a mile I was sold. I use it for riding with others, just set it on the lowest level of assist (25%) and ride. Used in this mode, range for the Trek on a relatively flat course is 35+ miles -- I have ridden it 30+ miles on 5 occasions so I am pretty confident about the range. I have not used the Trek much on morning rides, but I think I can figure a way to use it, I'll see. Until then, the Prodeco is doing fine and going strong.

 

[fedemb]

Here is my experience with Prodeco bikes.

 

[Jason27]

Ice rider are you a paid schill for prodeco? There are rumors that prodeco pays a company to write positive online reviews.

 

[icerider]

................Ice rider are you a paid schill for prodeco? There are rumors that prodeco pays a company to write positive online reviews.............

No, just a satisfied customer -- but then I bought it for used for $500 not new for $1500.

But let's be clear, the Prodeco is perfect for me for what I am doing right now which is riding for exercise by myself on rough/smooth pavement in the early morning hours out with the deer and the idiot rabbits. The motor gives me SPEED and silence, which keeps me coming back for more, which is the ONLY thing that matters. Here is a workable exercise routine that I LIKE and will keep doing. BTW just checked and I have now dropped 30 total pounds since I started riding in the morning. So I am now a 250 pound fat guy.

So lets talk about the “rest of the story”

I was frankly surprised that the range was anywhere NEAR what Prodeco claimed (the current claim from their web site is 28-38 miles for the 12 Ah battery). My range with the 12 Ah battery is 20-30 miles, the latter with HARD pedaling.

The bike is heavy (60 lbs) and VERY top heavy (I have the old giant heavy 12Ah battery mounted on a cargo rack behind the seat). Those folding pedals I replaced were worse than useless since they had little or no grip even with good rough cross training shoes. I now have FORTE Campus reversible pedals on both bikes and like them a lot. The Prodeco is top heavy enough I will not ride with cleats. I just know someday I will need to get a foot down RIGHT NOW to prevent a fall. I do ride the Valencia+ in cleats. On clean dry pavement the bike is fine. I am taking corners in residential areas at full speed in top gear without any fear of skidding. But if we add some water or dirt to the pavement. things get a little more interesting, get off pavement in 3-4 inches of sand and the bike gets treacherous indeed. I have now ridden the Prodeco about 60 miles on hard-pack dirt roads but those rides required REAL attention to the bike and the occasional areas of loose sand raised the pucker factor quite a bit. Neither the Prodeco nor the Valencia+ are very good on dirt roads.

Acceleration from a dead stop seems slower than it should be. The Prodeco accelerates much more slowly from a dead stop than the Trek/Bionx system on the Valencia+. Shifting is very smooth and sure even under light load. Top speed on a 2% downgrade is 22 mph with hard pedaling -- might be higher, but the Prodeco has only a single chainring (7speeds) and I am starting to spin out at 22 mph. Brakes are adequate, but nothing to write home about. The motor is near silent in cruise but more audible in acceleration. It is quiet enough in cruise that the deer just stand and watch me go by 15 feet away, but then again, those particular deer have seen me before.

But the bike has limitations. At first things tended to vibrate loose and loctite fixed that. I do NOT like the hinge on the main tube, it is nice and solid but I have no use for folding and don't like having the hinge there at all. At the first sign of trouble in that hinge I will simply have it welded. I raised the adjustable handlebars as far as they would go and that got the weight off my hands and dramatically reduced numbness. However, it left very little “stand-over” room between the seat and the handlebars.

The Trek Valencia+ is a better bike in every respect. It is lighter, faster, quieter, has better componentry, and the Bionx system is beautifully integrated. The torque-measuring assist system is entirely seamless and great fun to ride. I ride the Valencia+ with friends but still choose the Prodeco for my morning rides – and yes it may simply be that I am choosing the larger motor and higher average speed. The Prodeco is perfect for what I am doing. I now have 1210 miles on it without any significant problems and without seeing any change in battery performance.

 

[corbretti]

Update from my post above.....For those considering A Prodeco

I have been around a few other electric bikes now..

The bike is still going strong..Nothing broken so far..Very surprised at the reliability of the bike, especially as I live in the Keys for 6 months a year where I use this bike and It stays outside in the salt rain..Nothing is rusting..Very Impressive.. I have been driving the Bike since November 2013..still looks as good as the day I bought It..Now... this is a very impressive statement.. My Harley which I fully cover..I have to constantly coat the chrome spokes with Marine spray to keep them from turning brown..The salt rain is very destructive here in the Keys and It's not effecting the Prodeco at all..

The Battery life is only 7 to 10 miles at best..The 1 mile per KWh rule applies..so the advertising is a complete lie..If you are ordering a Prodeco..buy a second battery..with your purchase..you can negotiate a deal this way..

The rear wheel will sometimes come out of alignment and rub on the lower V portion of the frame..This is a easy fix and has to do with the quick release not holding wheel alignment as good as a proper secured nut..but the quick release is very handy so it's a compromise..

Prodeco should widen this v portion of the lower rear frame rails slightly in future models..as mentioned above and..About once, twice a month, I have to adjust the spokes on the rear wheel to keep the wheel in precise alignment or the wheel rubs on the frame..

The front disc has warped some how..so I had to back of the pad adjustment so much so, I have no front brakes..have a disc on order..

I love the Battery slide connect..Its very quick, and easy to use, has a good positive slide lock..The handle on the battery is very useful and well placed..easy to carry the battery with you..It's also a good looking, very professional, polished looking battery case..I am a Chemical Engineer, so It's Important when you are wearing a suit to work as I do, and have a brief case in one hand, and this professional looking battery case in the other..People always ask... what is that..When you tell them you drive to work on a ebike..They are actually impressed..The battery case with It's round sleek lines, Looks like something Jonathan Ive (Apple) would of designed..But Prodeco missed the mark as I state later...

Prodeco should offer a 20,30,40 Ah battery upgrade options with the same handle easy slide locking system as well as a 250,500,750,1000 watt hub options..just like cars have optional HP options when ordering..You can offer the higher wattage (HP) and just limit the speed to meet the required laws..the 250 watt/24 volt package just gets the job done on very flat terrain, a slight hill or even a 15 mph breeze..you will have to help it along by peddling..a 1000 watt 40 Ah battery package would be Ideal for my situation..

The battery case comes with a rear light..Nice..but Prodeco could of made it so much more..The light should be bigger, brighter, wrap right around the nice curved battery end so you have side coverage..The light should flash instead of being Fixed on..and have a second mode for a white light so when you take the battery with you..you have a built in flash light as well..You have no idea, how many times I wished I had a flash light to work the combination lock early in the morning or at night when it was dark out..so I would use the rear led option to give me the light I needed..The battery should have at least 2 usb ports to power your phone or tablets..You take the battery with you Always, so why not make it useful in other ways..I have been at Starbucks on my Saturday/Sunday morning secessions with my Prodeco battery beside me, with my coffee and a low battery on the phone, and no outlets to be used because the laptop users take them..

The bike should also come with a very bright built in headlight that runs off the battery pack directly..

The bike has exceeded my expectations..especially since I bought the bike used at the Bike Outfitters in Knights Key, Marathon Fl for 500.00 dollars...

I have easily saved over a 100.00/ month in fuel using the bike instead of the truck..so it has already paid for It's self..

 

[icerider]

..and have a second mode for a white light so when you take the battery with you..you have a built in flash light as well..You have no idea, how many times I wished I had a flash light to work the combination lock early in the morning or at night when it was dark out..

Yep, I can (barely) use the red taillight to find the key slot to the lock on the garage on a moonless light .. so, better than nothing, but not much, a useless taillight and a very marginal red flashlight.

 

[linberl]

My Prodeco Stride turned 2 years old this week so I thought I would share my experience. I bought my bike new with minimal assembly upon delivery. I am around 130 lbs, in my 60's, female, and hadn't been on a bike in about 4 years. I used to ride all the time, single track, etc. My back and knees have not appreciated aging so my MTB days ended. I bought the bike when I retired and have only used my car when taking passengers. I ride daily, between 2-15 miles. I do all my errands, shopping, etc., on the bike (I added a super strong front rack and panniers). I can bring home a full Costco load up to 60 pounds. My goal was to work up to using the motor only when needed on hills, and I have achieved that goal. I power the bike 90% of the time and use the motor in strong headwinds, hills, and intersections to avoid traffic. Repairs: Prodeco has replaced the wiring harness once, the seat once, the battery struts for the new style, and when the kickstand snapped at the welds, they replaced the entire frame. In each case, their service has been remarkable and hassle-free. I can't say enough about that aspect. Upgrades: I have installed the front rack, various accessories, and Schwalbe big ben tires. The big bens are sooooo much nicer than the Kendas! I get the bike tuned up professionally every year. Other than the less-than-stellar brakes (Promax), I have had no problem with components. Eventually I will install Avid BB7 brakes for easier adjustment. Because of the way I use the bike, I have never had issues with lack of range; I would have bought a scooter if I didn't want to primarily pedal. It's not the kind of bike I would take on a long ride but it makes an excellent City bike. I charge maybe once a week or so to keep the battery topped off. For a City bike, or short commuter, I think it's a pretty good deal relative to price.