My new eBike shop: Structuring, building, and pricing. Reflections and criticisms please.

[orcasprout]

Update from me:
I feel like the slow season never happened. I'm busy with taxes, marketing, networking, B Corp initiatives, and THEN the garage!

Each cheap internet bike that comes in is a nightmare with some unknown. Hours of labor later, it turns out the ground pin on a JST was loose and then finally fell off. "Hey, why is it working now and then stops? NOTHING changed!" (except I jostled the JST) I went back and forth...and back and forth...and back and forth (get the picture).

Basically I'm learning everything the hard way and slogging through a new situation everyday.

If any eBike repair bodhisattva wishes to parachute into my garage I be really grateful. It would involve a lot of smacking me upside the head at times. "Why did you do it that way when YOU KNEW the other way was better!!!?"

I'm building (in my head) an "eBike repair shop manual" which needs:

A cross referanceable guide to eBike repair including which display and controllers are compatible with pinouts and language used (UART/CANBUS/etc).​

​

How to tackle the "I hit a bump and now it does not run" repair. It starts with verifying the good components work first (ask me how I learned this! Ha ha!)​

​

I also need a printable "plug pin out sheet" so I can trace wires and label. Basically nice images of all the types of plugs so I can label them.​

​

Ways to estimate the cost ahead of time. It's such a pile of rabbit holes each day.​

​

That said, I'm really appreciating all the aspects of the world I'm in now. It feels like I'm creating, fixing, living, interacting, and building. What more could one ask for?

Lets hope the learning does not involve fire or electrocution. Soon (maybe next year even) I'll need to find a larger space that has a great location and is affordable (ha ha yeah I know how this sounds).

 

[leffex]

UART/CANBUS I do still stay out. Allthough you can tinker with it for fun but I mean it takes a lot of time to figure out starting from blanc. For example I could get a bms of a non-oem bosch ebike battery brand working on the charge side but it didn't give output or correct signals to the Bosch electric while connected on an ebike. Because the said bms would brick itself if it was discharged below a certain threshold or disconnected from the two battery mains connections inside the battery.

Bike store managers and workers are a breed of themselves. Every day is a surprise how your day will be. How's your day? Sure, it was filled with surprises for sure and special cases needing utmost care and strength. Then all the other business sides that you care for and the people you meet gives eye-poping moments worth it all over or the phone calls that makes you wonder why the call was made. Very funny moments. I agree with the work description it is like a man of all trades situation.

I think the way you work makes good for learning. I don't think I do it the exact same way as you are but both are good ways and another person would do it another way.

About the connectors sometimes I had that trouble with that it was out a few but that was enough to make it a no go. Solution was. New display and cable. Redo the connector only with a new one and keep it all. Some brands or connectors on a branded bike was bad so you could eventually spot a pattern and worthy things to check for.

Today on a technical side note I had a 7 gear hub and the large side plastic side had pushed through and the axle beads was all over the place. A job for me on Monday to fix. I have some spares I will try and use and if that won't work I'll just push a new 7 gear assembly into the empty wheel hub and call it set.

Working faster or hiring a new guy to take of some work load can keep you in the garage still. Some re-arranging and fast flow can also make it work until you decided for a good place to have your business.

 

[orcasprout]

Hello Leffex,

Thanks for prompting me to update. Whew, its a LOT! Spring is here, garage is FULL!

I was able to obtain liability insurance! It's kinda "soft" (non-admitted and restricted) but after ~1 year of looking it was a welcome expense (ironically). I'm feeling like this can fly. Its the part that kept me up at night.

Cart and the Horse! I need to have more customers to hire a helper, I need a helper to get more sales. A friend said get an unpaid intern, hmmm. My current strategy is to be much faster at (the few) repetitive repairs.

Job description for intern (which is basically me +1):
A Light Electric Vehicle Junior Technician who can scratch their head, scream in frustration, try it the wrong twice, scream and storm out of the room to complain to the owner's spouse who is not listening nor understanding. After that, learn about all aspects of hydraulic brake troubleshooting. Why can't i fix this and how come (big internet brand) brake handle bleed valve does not work with my kit? ARGH.

Shop for parts, supplies, legal services, and bookkeeping software. No please don't proposition me.

Coordinate and actualize the B Corporation mission, Equitable Access to Transportation, with Bicycle Motor Works. We hope to get eBikes to deserving poor folks.

Refine pricing, both formally (a board with prices on it) and negotiating with all manner of nice and cranky people. People with a Mercedes SUV badgering me to work for less than free!

Hope that works for now. Amberwolf, I owe you more money.

 

[leffex]

I can relate.

I think a lot of people in this forum can

Just ask and you shall't receive. (We are hidden right in the corner typing solutions...)

 

[riding_on]

Great thread. I laughed, I cried, and I repeatedly walked away not knowing how I'm supposed to really feel. I think Mr. Ebert would give it two thumbs up, if he had two voting thumbs left.

Blue Monday. So when are we all filming? Don't forget to invite the extras!

 

[leffex]

Summer is on
Tigthen your nuts and fly on!

Things are changing from the dope years of 2020-2022 in a bubbly tower of champagne the carbonized water has finally ceased only givining fruit to the essence of its nutritions.

Some companies has invented new products and some are competing heavely to survive.

The dip is now over and we can breath out that the times will only get better.

 

[mindgames11]

Hello Leffex,

Thanks for prompting me to update. Whew, its a LOT! Spring is here, garage is FULL!

I was able to obtain liability insurance! It's kinda "soft" (non-admitted and restricted) but after ~1 year of looking it was a welcome expense (ironically). I'm feeling like this can fly. Its the part that kept me up at night.

Cart and the Horse! I need to have more customers to hire a helper, I need a helper to get more sales. A friend said get an unpaid intern, hmmm. My current strategy is to be much faster at (the few) repetitive repairs.

Job description for intern (which is basically me +1):
A Light Electric Vehicle Junior Technician who can scratch their head, scream in frustration, try it the wrong twice, scream and storm out of the room to complain to the owner's spouse who is not listening nor understanding. After that, learn about all aspects of hydraulic brake troubleshooting. Why can't i fix this and how come (big internet brand) brake handle bleed valve does not work with my kit? ARGH.

Shop for parts, supplies, legal services, and bookkeeping software. No please don't proposition me.

Coordinate and actualize the B Corporation mission, Equitable Access to Transportation, with Bicycle Motor Works. We hope to get eBikes to deserving poor folks.

Refine pricing, both formally (a board with prices on it) and negotiating with all manner of nice and cranky people. People with a Mercedes SUV badgering me to work for less than free!

Hope that works for now. Amberwolf, I owe you more money.

I've been thinking about starting an unlicensed variety of e-vehicle servicing business. I live in NYC where there are millions of e vehicles and after having fooled with a few for myself I can understand why if I have trouble (wow, getting info on stereo recievers from 1979 is amazing. these days the "manual" for a gotrax scooter tells you to send it back to them for things like brake service....) fixing some of these things, "ordinary" (I am not afraid to fix, or attempt to fix anything. including humans- I gave someone stitches once.)

if it werent for the distance I'd love to clock a couple hours a week for you. I wouldn't even make you pay me. except in fringe benefits like using some of your square footage for my own bizarro projects (no explosives, narcotics, or slaves.).


I'd love to compose (ideally as a group) an index/wiki of actual information starting with Manufacturers, models and years offered. things like motor voltage, rated output, experimentally tested overvoltage/current, dropout(bikes but mostly for scooters) dimensions and motor dimensions. battery info (physical config, s/p, cell type, bms info, connector types), controller info (ratings, markings both in and out, part number of the main ICs on the board and the switching devices, comm protocol.)


Ive been wondering if I could somehow poach the service manuals for at least a few companies by going to their licensed repair affiliates and bribing, begging, berating their techs into giving me a copy of what I would hope is a pdf, or even letting me photograph their screen a bit. the lack of documentation by ANYONE, including the "reputable" companies has been a subject I've been frothing about lately.

 

[mindgames11]

I just learned about bosch two days ago. the thing that is really sticking is that I don't like bosch. no information+locked up ecosystem in every facet makes me give them the finger.

too bad, I was excited to get that bike operating to a level I had fantasized about (for starters, any 36 volts... going in I was like yea whatever to those wires besides the red and black- likely not critical to operation. haha. kinda right, kinda wrong.

 

[leffex]

I just learned about bosch two days ago. the thing that is really sticking is that I don't like bosch. no information+locked up ecosystem in every facet makes me give them the finger.

too bad, I was excited to get that bike operating to a level I had fantasized about (for starters, any 36 volts... going in I was like yea whatever to those wires besides the red and black- likely not critical to operation. haha. kinda right, kinda wrong.

Just what I thought. Why can't I set up shop in your closet then instead?

Oh no.... Orcasprout was your intended reciever of the message.

When you get to know all cars and brands it gets boring. Its kind of a limit of varibles and facts and too easy to follow and nowadays the fame is gone, at least for me. In the interest of the subject: Still important for mechanics though. They can even add some psychology and odd repairs from the car owners in their books as not to get sued for their customers shady business, crap or cons.

It can be tricky to add motors to a list and call it a day. There are also versions of the motors depending on year so a better approach I would recommend is to remember the motors you deal with, take photos and document, ask questions and add it to a written record. This record then become valuable as you learn which motors are the common ones and so on. Which motors are sold on local or used adds. What brands of bikes sell the most and are common in your area and what motors do they have?

A good way for an easy wiki is a blog and make a post on each motor, add tags, add some more buttons for some wiki/index pages on your blog. Make it like a tiny website. No real prior knowledge needed.

Manuals are widely available everywhere and on sellers website as well as the original manufacturers of the motors. Although they may not always give up to much details of the electronic side. The one which is the more interesting one.

I recommend a hands on approach which gives agony and feelings and really pushes your brain to upgrade those problem solving skills. To make tools is a good skill. I didn't know so I only used the tools in the box. AND Better of cutting that screw head unwinding the grinder and make a canyon were you then remove the unmovable item with a simple flat driver.

 

[leffex]

Most recently I just couldn't stand a motor I had saved for it to be used with a sensorless generic controller. Motors will then work with only the three big phase wires going to the motor.

It was lucky I did because the insise hub was fully infested wirh rust as well as the nylon gears or whatever material they are were broken to near polished state. As an added bonus one of the gears had its roller bearing totally broken down with no pieces left or there to the naked eye. Maybe rust had eaten it all up. LOL.

I documented it all and I believe it is a motor that is very common. It was however tricky and hard to open and on the last stage I broke it. Easy in the begining, though. To anyone working with motors and opening them up any bit of information is valuable.

I will add this information soon and keep on adding more.

ADDED 2024-07-17:

https://imgur.com/a/JxlYf0b

 

[orcasprout]

Hi everyone,

Gosh, I'm swamped!

People waiting at the garage entrance, phone ringing off the hook, all the LBS refer ALL the work to me, ARGH and YEA!

I'm sorry I don't have time for a comprehensive update.

I'm really grateful for all of you and I'm gonna figure out how to work ON the business vs. IN the business. I've hired my cousin ($20/hr) and am actively training him to get out from under the workload.

Micro-mobility! I'm currently at the epicenter of this for my region. I've got the market to myself. Everything that comes in the door is a one-off but ultimately fixable. Thank you everyone! Amberwolf, Leffex, Nocobie, riding_on, UtahPete, etc.

All of you help me in ways I can't re-pay you for.

I'll be back in the late fall when things slow down.

Thanks for being here!

 

[Fast and Furious]

Hello ES!

I'm a long time lurker. Thank you to all the "oldies" for the generous donations of time and knowledge. I'm functional and "here" because of you!

After several different lifetimes of making a very few people rich from my labor, I decided that MY talent and passion can take a lap before I exit this world. I'm a tree-hugger from way back and the LEV plays a big part in my efforts to make this world a better place. Since I'm not able to take a "LEV Sabbatical" at Grin, I figure you all at ES are the next best source of advice.

Please weigh in with your reflections, opinions, criticisms, and advice. (I've got a thick skin, don't worry) Please and thank you.

I've started in my garage, been going since summer 2022. I'm recovering from an initial $15,000 investment, now about $9000 in the hole. My capitol expenditures are mostly done, so the trend line is positive. I hope to break even next year. The current income is not amazing (see revenue growth below).

I was initially inspired to create my business from Johnny Nerd Out (thank you John).

Only the first two value propositions are up and running so far:

Servicing the DCIEB (dirt-cheap internet e-bike) and scooters.
Conversions of acoustics to electric

I'm hoping to add more revenue models like:
Battery testing (I've gat a CBA V w/500W amp)
Rentals
Classes
Consulting

So, what advice am I asking for?
Am I crazy?
Am I on the right track?
What am I doing wrong?
What am I missing?

Pricing: (repair and conversions)
I charge $80/hr for electrical work and $40/hr for mechanical. I end up discounting rates because I get stuck "learning" stuff and I move way too slow.
Frustrating examples include display/controller coms (CANBUS vs UART), 9 pin Julet sourced from CN with non-standard pin positions, re-lacing hubs with non-standard spokes, etc.
For conversions I charge 4.5 hours of labor ($360) + parts.

Purchasing/Sourcing:
I've done two big purchases from CN. Sailimotor and UPP (yes Amberwolf I've taken your opinion to heart, but have not gotten burned yet)
I need A LOT of help doing better in this area. I need to efficiently supply this business with mid-drives/hubs/batteries/controllers/displays/throttles/ebrakes/cables/connectors/etc. I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME trying to find the right stuff at wholesale. HELP! Is there a better way? What are the big suppliers out there anyway? I'm willing to put out cash for a few motors/batteries but I wait until the client comes in the door to order the replacement parts they need. I struggle with this. Until I have insurance (see below) I can't get an account at JBI.

Liability:
I'm frightened by the liability exposure. My quote was $5250/yr for two incidents at $1M each. Today (in my business networking group) an insurance guy just informed me about a $200k claim from FL. The house burned down and the battery supplier was not responsible but the claim is going forward. Every time I touch someone's CIEB (cheap internet e-bike) I assume the liability for the battery, motor, and frame. I spent a couple grand writing up a three page waiver but I'm still frightened. It's not the rider that will sue me, it's the insurance company or PI lawyer. I HAVE to increase revenue enough to afford this (unfortunately).

Poor People Transit:
The need for "equitable access to transit" (my B corp mission) is HUGE! Late stage capitalism has created an entire underclass of workers unable to get to work affordably. I'm in a VERY car-centric location. Woe be to the biker or pedestrian here (Lehigh Valley, PA). These guys are risking their lives (more so than in other places for sure, with apologies to the rest of the developing world) to get to their fast-food job. Bus service here is adequate but not like in the more dense cities. Somehow I've got to/want to service these people and get them affordable transit. This means repairing a crap bike cheaply or providing a replacement that they can afford. Have i emphasized the ENORMOUS NEED enough?

Revenue growth:
Currently this business is not gonna fly without more growth. I've got to repair faster (with already sourced and stocked parts), and I've got to find and develop more customers/business models. Since I'm new and just getting on my feet, I've done almost no marketing. What are the ways/strategies to build interest and how does that translate to income? I've never had a Facebook account and have reluctantly done Instagram (yes I'm older). I'm gonna have to submit to the FANG overlords even more I assume.

Thank you!

MISSING? Uh, 'location, location, location' ???
South Side Chicago or Austin TX ????
I suggest San Diego, CA - PM me on that I tell you why.
Specialize in quality (e-bike) work. Hard to find good staff, but that's your business.
Dump 'rentals' mentality and all the franchise scams. Stick to satisfied clientele w/ high end machines, tune them right and you own the market w/ long-term well, paying customers.
Servicing dispose-o-bikes should be a side operation and yes, long term.
Thing is, location and reputation.
A showroom of hot machines would also help, but 'rep's the long-term cash-cow.

 

[leffex]

Hi everyone, ...

I'm really grateful for all of you and I'm gonna figure out how to work ON the business vs. IN the business. I've hired my cousin ($20/hr) and am actively training him to get out from under the workload.

Micro-mobility! I'm currently at the epicenter of this for my region. I've got the market to myself. Everything that comes in the door is a one-off but ultimately fixable. Thank you everyone! Amberwolf, Leffex, Nocobie, riding_on, UtahPete, etc.

Yes. It seems you have taken the best advice already!

One way to "streamline" the customer inflow can save you some time. A pre-sheet of issues or clickable items in a normal service and a row for a maximum service cost before calling up the said customer may help.

Same thing goes at the outflow, also it is kind of a memory item for what shall be done on the bike as you can have the specific items on a list or a paper with the bike so that it can be fast out the door as well. It is easy to forget small things and in the end these add up to bigger numbers that is pretty much free $.

As you are saying that most of the jobs taken are fixable there can also be more expensive options if some jobs that go all the way down the pit regarding fixability. An e-bike ready bolt on kit as a backup for said job and therefore in action fast after a short phone call can save bucks into the company and not always a lost cause or 0$. Also a set problem error fee will keep out the worst e-bikes that are not fixable like bikes take from rivers, lakes or junkyards. Were water sourced bikes mostly are the more rare kind.

We wish you a happy summer and are always happy to see how's going. When things slow down our brain can work on some plans and make future work easier, faster and smarter.

 

[riding_on]

Thank you everyone! Amberwolf, Leffex, Nocobie, riding_on, UtahPete, etc.

All of you help me in ways I can't re-pay you for.

Thanks for being here!

It's a true honor to be thanked for doing what I was doing anyway, fellow human being. I wish you the best!

 

[leffex]

Sales are falling as the winter is coming near.

Still stuff to do and then all the work regarding tyre changes is sure coming as well.

The side research and ongoing projects keeps on progressing slowly as enemies (some other companies) are getting ahead in some key aspects like rare products only available through them.

On a side note another battery builder company really has issues. I really can't understand the lack of understanding of building a simple safe battery but nickel gets forgotten or lose and charge connectors are diving into the battery itself.

Apart from rich country issues all is fine.

Hear from you soon, aye?

 

[orcasprout]

Yes slowing down but still lots of people with needs.

I'm still learning everything firsthand. I have my cousin helping me part time and that is very helpful

The poor people with their low quality bikes are a big part of what's going on micromobility. They don't have the money up front but think the cheap bike will solve their problem. Lots of middlemen getting rich selling low quality "kids bikes" to adults who think it will get them to work. They show up with no options and are desparate. I'm starting a turn the junk in and I'll sell you refurbished program.

I need to be able to recycle used batteries. There seem to be limited options that are reasonable.

I need a larger space but will make due this winter with what I have.

The repair business pays for itself but does not spin off any real money/profit. The low cost of new from China is hard to work with.

I need to expand the lines of revenue and am open to suggestions. Sell scooters? Build my own brand? Be a super Grin dealer and dive into super custom work? Hmmm.

Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts.

 

[Hillhater]

I really can't understand the lack of understanding of building a simple safe battery

Batteries are like cans of gas or bottles of LPG….they are inherently dangerous due to their energy content.
If not treated with respect and used as intended then all sorts of things can happen.

 

[leffex]

...
The poor people with their low quality bikes are a big part of what's going on micromobility. They don't have the money up front but think the cheap bike will solve their problem. Lots of middlemen getting rich selling low quality "kids bikes" to adults who think it will get them to work. They show up with no options and are desparate. I'm starting a turn the junk in and I'll sell you refurbished program.

I need to be able to recycle used batteries. There seem to be limited options that are reasonable.

...
The repair business pays for itself but does not spin off any real money/profit. The low cost of new from China is hard to work with.

I need to expand the lines of revenue and am open to suggestions. Sell scooters? Build my own brand? Be a super Grin dealer and dive into super custom work? Hmmm.

Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts.

I like the refurbished program but it still need input in form of time, work and research as you still have a bit of liability for second hand, refurbished or used parts as well.

I like to build bikes from scratch. It can be done in a recycle program but I don't know about the profitability there. You really need a lot of time to do it, is my guess, and it need to look as mint and perfect as possible and still your margin will be low as the value might only reach half of full price of a new unit. My boss and I are arguing on both ends and currently we are not doing recycle of bikes, sell used ebikes or build our own.

To start and learn about batteries may be an area of side income. To give them to the scrapyard only for recycling will be a cost. To keep them as inventory and stock might be profitable on some battery packs but how would you know right now which is which? and one don't want to store ebike lipo battery packs that contain that type of cell as well as very damaged packs nor "previously worked on and opened packs"- who know the possible errors there might be.

Pack value estimates.
Value of low end ebike battery or shimano brand: 50
Value of defect bosch, yamaha branded battery, 50-200
Value of repaired bosch. 250-400

By dissecting the batteries you may add some value but will take time dig out. Say another 50% value adding possible. This can be solved by selling to a local guy doing that work and benefit both you and him. Also you remove the risk of danger by just passing it on but you will lose a little on the margin but for sure worth it as you are the first tier and can keep the gold nuggets in the future or get payed more.

This guy collected 18650 cells
The Kilowatt Challenge

The next step after holding stock is to repair or build packs and that requires knowledge and a mindset of understanding what you are doing. You can build packs by using old shells and putting in new cells. Only repair a few cells will take almost the same time as building a whole new pack. Some packs are odd in form or shape and will be tricky to work with. To little and it will fail at certain points, too much and it will brake and degrade over time. The just correct settings and doing things right is key as I said, doing repairs will take almost as long time as building a whole new pack. So a quality mindset is very important.

This guy is opening battery packs
The Battery Doctor

It would really be a cool spin off if you used your kits and inventory and build better bikes than the crap people come in to service and troubleshoot.

You could say in the beginning of the visit to your store that they can buy a good bike that you sell for 1000 or 1500 and they can scrap or get 50-100 in rebate for their bike if they don't want to troubleshoot it. Especially if they have a kids bike and your offer is more in their size and a perfect fit for them.

 

[orcasprout]

Recycling or refurbishment of batteries is interesting but is a lot for me at the moment. thank you for the detailed explanation and I feel like I have that mindset and can relate.

You really need a lot of time to do it, is my guess, and it need to look as mint and perfect as possible and still your margin will be low as the value might only reach half of full price of a new unit. My boss and I are arguing on both ends and currently we are not doing recycle of bikes, sell used ebikes or build our own.

Yes yes and yes.
I'm doing an internal "Abbot and Costello" as I only have me for a boss. My internal boss is pretty laid back so I'm the one who has to do all the work! Ha ha.

I'd love to hear more about the debate. It's worth having. The margin IS small, and the liability large.

So how to make the user share this cost burden, such that the need is met and the positive margin is obtained? I guess that is where my head is.

 

[leffex]

Recycling or refurbishment of batteries is interesting but is a lot for me at the moment. thank you for the detailed explanation and I feel like I have that mindset and can relate.

Yes yes and yes.
I'm doing an internal "Abbot and Costello" as I only have me for a boss. My internal boss is pretty laid back so I'm the one who has to do all the work! Ha ha.

I'd love to hear more about the debate. It's worth having. The margin IS small, and the liability large.

So how to make the user share this cost burden, such that the need is met and the positive margin is obtained? I guess that is where my head is.

So I argue that I can use my time and we can steal some stock products and maybe get bike frames new or used whatever and build bikes and put our own brand name on them. A shop is way better selling position than in a private stance. Still if the bike look new with old components. Is it new or old? Refurbished is another word but it won't push the price so much higher. As mint as possible is the way to get maximum pay for your build.

In the end how I think is that I release stock capital in the company to a new product that is also invested with time and when this product is sold the negative effects are none as it won't effect stock (stocked motors and batteries are plenty available and can be re-ordered swiftly or build). It won't effect day to day work as they are being build to keep stock at ONE. Preferably the same ebike in as few variations as possible or with options that "increases" the price? - (Larger battery?) - I argue this bike will be targeting people wanting price/value rather than anything else as they can't buy anything more expensive. A new customer base that is not competing with the rest of the ebike inventory we have.

My boss argues simply that we can buy ready-made cheaper ebikes which is the product that we argue about. Which we don't, because none are available. That would increase capital costs as well as giving low profit margins on this "lower" priced bike as they usually come with lesser motors or batteries that doesn't have the best ride or feeling. The brand names usually aren't known and so can't be respected by customers. Let's say the name of the bike is Gogo Baby. I'll pay big dollars for this unknown brand, really as well as branded costing a fortune for a front motor. Say 2500$ for a unit. Who would buy that?

Also my labour time would be inserted into the calculation of a build ebike making it cost almost the same as buying one.

Do you see the error my boss does? True. We don't have unlimited time but just why not? If the ebike is not available anyway why don't build it yourself?

New complete bike frame, maybe something like 100-400$

I may be thinking with a very positive mind but I don't se the problem until I have tried it out at least and as the cost aren't so high it is also a way to keep higher profits in the end as you yourself becomes the first line and last. No middle guy in between.

 

[99t4]

Still if the bike look new with old components. Is it new or old? Refurbished is another word but it won't push the price so much higher. As mint as possible is the way to get maximum pay for your build.

I notice that marketers are using the term"Vintage" a lot, to increase perceived value.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I notice that marketers are using the term"Vintage" a lot, to increase perceived value.

I was at one shop to buy a bass. The salesman said this was “factory seconds”. He explained, there WAS an issue, but the factory corrected it. I amounted that to warranty work. Bought that bass about 20 years ago. It’s still working just fine.