My new eBike shop: Structuring, building, and pricing. Reflections and criticisms please.

[leffex]

What's up?

Some news at our place will come in the year ahead but I can't release the secret information yet.

In the meantime I'm curious how things are going for you.

I've been downgraded or really kicked from sales. I seem to be to nerdy to handle the basic which makes me sad. However the history and success doesn't lie so I'm not to keen on the reason is only for that or for "specialising" the firm. Putting the best man for the jobb at the right places makes the whole better.

Other than that personal side note there is not much going on right now. Just keeping ourselves busy the best we can and I got my projects running on the side going forward strong and profitable.

 

[neptronix]

I'm fortunate to have people bothering me all the time for service. I NEED them to go away so I can get inventory and taxes done. It's freezing outside and they still need service. Teen-agers, college students, low-income workers, and die-hard crotchety old men (like me!) are not put off by any inconvenience of loosing sensation on our fingers! Fix my eBike, so what that it's cold!

Sounds like you need to delegate some responsibilities out. If it's that busy during winter, it's probably going to be 2x busier during summer.

This is the hardest part of a business.. when you go from 1 person to 2.. you don't know anything about delegating.. and you don't really have free time to even figure that out.. so you instead figure it out as you go.. and look like an incompetent manager for a while, lol.

I ended up getting butthurt early on that i couldn't take a big web development contract.. it would have changed my fortunes because i had a mostly low paying roster of clients. In a fit of emotion, I put out an ad for my first programmer.. and found two people who were like a complimentary pair. So i took on both..

The next 8 months was spent ironing out how to be a multi-player company.. it was the most insane period of my life.. i probably wrote 30 pages of documentation, policies, workflow, etc.. but i made it through the fire.. and now each additional worker is a million times easier.. especially with systems in place to onboard people.. instead of just winging it

If you chose to use the same 'jump out of the plane and build the parachute on the way down' like i did... just be honest about where you're at with everyone.. tell the new guy that you're just getting the hang of being a manager and that you'd like his feedback on how to be a better one.. that kind of bare honesty works well.

 

[orcasprout]

Thank you for that advice and yes I'm jumping out of a plane.

I've got 2 part time now. First is really good and 2nd is brand new. Lot and lot of training. I worked in a bunch of places so I'm ok with the instruction part. It's going well. I'm extremely busy internally.

I need space and I'm gonna re-arrange the place. Fingers crossed I won't need a huge shed till next year. I'll need to manage space and workflow well.

Twice as busy in the summer? Yikes. I've ordered batteries and I'm looking for a motor/controller/display supplier. Suggestions?

 

[orcasprout]

TLDR: Help with recycling used eBike batteries!

The season is hitting!

I've gotten screwed around at least twice trying to figure out how to recycle used (not damaged) Li-ion eBike and scooter batteries. I've got to pay $500 shipping because I don't (yet) have a commercial address. I'm not naming names but I've been jerked around already. Why is it so hard to get a circular economy going?

Somehow there is a gap. Messaging, narrative, cost-benefit, corruption, etc. Whatever it is, I need to get these batteries disposed of.

Yes, I can "just drop them in the garbage" but whats that about?

Does anyone have advice about what to do? I've got 100# of undamaged batteries, not a lot but I'll bet I can start acquiring stuff easily.

Hardware stores only take the drill batteries, no 10+Ah stuff.

Thanks

 

[neptronix]

Does your state or county have some kind of recycling option?
Here in Utah, there is a government facility that will take them - one day a week, lol.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Call around to your local scrapyards and see if they will take them. They might even send you a few bucks. Alternatively, you could post online for someone to come get them, but you may not want to do that for liability reasons.

 

[neptronix]

At the absolute worst, discharge the pack to 0v before disposing of the pack another way.
This should greatly lower the amount of random fire potential.

 

[orcasprout]

At the absolute worst, discharge the pack to 0v before disposing of the pack another way.
This should greatly lower the amount of random fire potential.

My PA county excludes them from their Hazardous Waste Collection Days!

How do I do that when the BMS shuts it off below a low voltage range. Are you talkin' open a pack and tap into leads directly? Perhaps run it through Grin's resistor?

 

[orcasprout]

Call around to your local scrapyards and see if they will take them. They might even send you a few bucks. Alternatively, you could post online for someone to come get them, but you may not want to do that for liability reasons.

Scrapyards? Sure I get they'd take the Pb-acid but I'll ask about Li-ion. My local Autozone takes the Pb but does not take Lithium

Post online? Uh, why not? OK. Thanks

 

[neptronix]

My PA county excludes them from their Hazardous Waste Collection Days!

Major bummer!

How do I do that when the BMS shuts it off below a low voltage range. Are you talkin' open a pack and tap into leads directly? Perhaps run it through Grin's resistor?

Yeah, you have to tap the main leads.

I like using 50w 12v incandescent bulbs in series to match the voltage you're draining, it's a cheap way to get a controlled load and vary it by voltage.

Grin's solution is substantially cheaper.

 

[lnanek]

I've never had issues just slapping a 110V AC bulb on 48V DC packs before if you just need to bulk drain them down indiscriminately. Yeah, the bulb doesn't light up fully and one side of the bulb's filament might die before the other in a couple years since it's designed for AC, but not a big loss.

 

[amberwolf]

How do I do that when the BMS shuts it off below a low voltage range. Are you talkin' open a pack and tap into leads directly?

If you really need to destroy the packs (without opening them up, assuming they're not waterproof) before disposal to make them safe, you could probably soak them in saltwater (don't know what concentration); this would discharge all the cells to zero volts. There's some posts about this over the years with more detail, somewhere around here.

 

[leffex]

Sounds like you need to delegate some responsibilities out. If it's that busy during winter, it's probably going to be 2x busier during summer.

This is the hardest part of a business.. when you go from 1 person to 2.. you don't know anything about delegating.. and you don't really have free time to even figure that out.. so you instead figure it out as you go.. and look like an incompetent manager for a while, lol.

I ended up getting butthurt early on that i couldn't take a big web development contract.. it would have changed my fortunes because i had a mostly low paying roster of clients. In a fit of emotion, I put out an ad for my first programmer.. and found two people who were like a complimentary pair. So i took on both..

The next 8 months was spent ironing out how to be a multi-player company.. it was the most insane period of my life.. i probably wrote 30 pages of documentation, policies, workflow, etc.. but i made it through the fire.. and now each additional worker is a million times easier.. especially with systems in place to onboard people.. instead of just winging it

If you chose to use the same 'jump out of the plane and build the parachute on the way down' like i did... just be honest about where you're at with everyone.. tell the new guy that you're just getting the hang of being a manager and that you'd like his feedback on how to be a better one.. that kind of bare honesty works well.

Scooter packs are usually useless. Bad cells and not worth the time.

What about more expensive branded ones or more common battery pack types? What types and amount of packs do you get to handle? Can one of your guys become an expert? Check out the Swedish "the battery doctor" or batteridoktorn for inside dives into the inside of battery assembly and repairs. For sure there is value to be take before handing over and paying a scrapyard to handle the worthless yunk.

 

[Zambam]

At the absolute worst, discharge the pack to 0v before disposing of the pack another way.
This should greatly lower the amount of random fire potential.

Don't Lithium (NMC) cells become unstable below 2.50v? What discharge profile do you use to bring the cells down to 0v?

 

[Zambam]

If you really need to destroy the packs (without opening them up, assuming they're not waterproof) before disposal to make them safe, you could probably soak them in saltwater (don't know what concentration); this would discharge all the cells to zero volts. There's some posts about this over the years with more detail, somewhere around here.

I've read that the salt solution becomes a hazardous waste after submerging lithium batteries in it. Another thing to worry about.

 

[marty]

TLDR: Help with recycling used eBike batteries!

The season is hitting!

I've gotten screwed around at least twice trying to figure out how to recycle used (not damaged) Li-ion eBike and scooter batteries. I've got to pay $500 shipping because I don't (yet) have a commercial address. I'm not naming names but I've been jerked around already. Why is it so hard to get a circular economy going?

Somehow there is a gap. Messaging, narrative, cost-benefit, corruption, etc. Whatever it is, I need to get these batteries disposed of.

Yes, I can "just drop them in the garbage" but whats that about?

Does anyone have advice about what to do? I've got 100# of undamaged batteries, not a lot but I'll bet I can start acquiring stuff easily.

Hardware stores only take the drill batteries, no 10+Ah stuff.

Thanks

Two ideas. First one is a battery BBQ. [For scientific experimental purpose only] In the spring people throw away propane BBQ grills. Usually they just dirty or spiders built a little nest in the orifice where gas comes out. Find a place way out in the country. Not near any houses. Buy beer and pizza. Invite friends to your battery BBQ. I once did this with a mountain of dead tree wood. After a fun party, the fire is still burning. Bad planing because we had no water. Pee on fire.

NOW I THINKING. VERY BAD IDEA! NOTHING GOOD WILL HAPPEN WHEN PROPANE TANK EXPLODES. HOW TO COOK BATTERIES WITHOUT PROPANE? WOOD WOULD WORK. PALLETS ARE FREE.

After innards of batteries are all burnt. You got some low value steel scrap metal. Some BBQ grills are aluminum and stainless steel. Maybe worth $5 in scrap metal if you separate the metals. If Trump starts world war 3? Scrap metal prices will go up. Lets pray for PEACE.

Second idea. Are you in the US? Do you have Home Depot's? There should be a sign in the window saying WE TAKE USED LITHIUM BATTERIES FOR RECYCLING. Also a big box to put the batteries in. Get some sturdy cardboard boxes. Remove all shipping labels. Put batteries in boxes. Tape em shut. Go to a far away Home Depot where no one might recolonize you. Park like I do. Far from other cars because I am anti social. Get one of those flat carts. Look by the garden area. Put batteries on cart. Put cart next to the battery drop off recycling box. Go home.

Hardware stores only take the drill batteries, no 10+Ah stuff.

Only if you ask

 

[marty]

Try looking at the internet? I live in Erie County. Look at erie.gov

Batteries - Rechargable | Recycling

www3.erie.gov

WeRecycleBatteries.com looks interesting and is not too far from me. I copy:

Recycles Lithium, Lithium-Ion, Alkaline, Ni-CD (Wet and Dry), Lead-Acids (all kinds), and Ni-Metal Hydride batteries.

WeRecycleBatteries.com Ph: 585-902-8110 – Our commitment runs deep to make sure your battery waste is disposed properly.

werecyclebatteries.com

Looked at ebay. Search scrap lithium batteries. Click on Sold items. See people are buying used laptop batteries. Wonder what they are doing with them?

My guess is that lithium batteries do have value as scrap if you can figure out where to take them. Think that shipping small amounts would cost more then what batteries are worth.

 

[Hillhater]

Invite friends to your battery BBQ.

Best not to try this with quantities of 18650/21700 cell type packs. They can explode violently in a fire !
Salt water soak to 0.0 volts and then Home Depo recycle bin.

 

[leffex]

Value just increased for the junk or gold depending how you look at it. When battery import prices increase according to trump intelligent tariffs.

Yes, expertise is needed for you to be able to do anything. I find value in many things. I can't guess how much value humans have scraped for nothing or even payed to get tossed away. We could be a rich happy society since long ago already.

 

[marty]

They can explode violently in a fire !

Without doing scientific experiments, how do you know that?

Idea? Modify propane BBQ grill with extra long gas hose. Think 20 feet would be enough? Think BBQ grill housing will contain batteries if they go pop. If things get out of hand? Close valve on propane tank and run.

Shrapnel from exploding metal can be dangerous. Important to dress properly for Marty's Battery BBQ Party. Think bomb disposal suit.

 

[marty]

Fun fact on scrap metal. As quantities increase. Price goes up.

I've got 100# of undamaged batteries

Find a place to put them. Same place you store gasoline and propane. Soon as you get 1000 pounds. Get on the phone and try to sell.

 

[classicalgas]

TLDR: Help with recycling used eBike batteries!

The season is hitting!

I've gotten screwed around at least twice trying to figure out how to recycle used (not damaged) Li-ion eBike and scooter batteries. I've got to pay $500 shipping because I don't (yet) have a commercial address. I'm not naming names but I've been jerked around already. Why is it so hard to get a circular economy going?

Somehow there is a gap. Messaging, narrative, cost-benefit, corruption, etc. Whatever it is, I need to get these batteries disposed of.

Yes, I can "just drop them in the garbage" but whats that about?

Does anyone have advice about what to do? I've got 100# of undamaged batteries, not a lot but I'll bet I can start acquiring stuff easily.

Hardware stores only take the drill batteries, no 10+Ah stuff.

Thanks

>Like Neptronix, we have a state run battery recycling program here, open 3-4 days a week. They'll take any battery. I just put two layers of duct tape over the terminals, but they seem to know what they are doing (non metallic carts to transport from your car to storage, non conductive surfaces on spaced out steel racks, big, open, ventilated area...no cost to drop off.

The site claims they ship "safetied" lithium batteries to a specialist lithium battery recycling company. I understand those companies are having trouble getting enough batteries to stay open.

 

[neptronix]

>Like Neptronix, we have a state run battery recycling program here, open 3-4 days a week. They'll take any battery. I just put two layers of duct tape over the terminals, but they seem to know what they are doing (non metallic carts to transport from your car to storage, non conductive surfaces on spaced out steel racks, big, open, ventilated area...no cost to drop off.

The site claims they ship "safetied" lithium batteries to a specialist lithium battery recycling company. I understand those companies are having trouble getting enough batteries to stay open.

In what approximate area are you getting such good service from government?

 

[harrisonpatm]

Fun fact on scrap metal. As quantities increase. Price goes up.

Find a place to put them. Same place you store gasoline and propane. Soon as you get 1000 pounds. Get on the phone and try to sell.

Im in metro detroit area, Michigan, and for reference, I get only $0.10 per pound. And it's at the only scrapyard I've found in a 40 mile radius that even takes them at all; most scrapyards don't accept them. Anyway, I usually go when I have about 100 pounds, so 10 bucks. It's not about the money, I just want to make sure my discards are going to the appropriate place.

 

[classicalgas]

In what approximate area are you getting such good service from government?

Washington state, of course! In a college town, which probably has some bearing.

We also have a not for profit community bike shop, that puts donated bikes back on the road, rents tools and work space, and teaches bike mechanics. They are avoiding working on E-bikes, so they save any that come in for me.