My new eBike shop: Structuring, building, and pricing. Reflections and criticisms please.

[orcasprout]

Hello ES!

I'm a long time lurker. Thank you to all the "oldies" for the generous donations of time and knowledge. I'm functional and "here" because of you!

After several different lifetimes of making a very few people rich from my labor, I decided that MY talent and passion can take a lap before I exit this world. I'm a tree-hugger from way back and the LEV plays a big part in my efforts to make this world a better place. Since I'm not able to take a "LEV Sabbatical" at Grin, I figure you all at ES are the next best source of advice.

Please weigh in with your reflections, opinions, criticisms, and advice. (I've got a thick skin, don't worry) Please and thank you.

I've started in my garage, been going since summer 2022. I'm recovering from an initial $15,000 investment, now about $9000 in the hole. My capitol expenditures are mostly done, so the trend line is positive. I hope to break even next year. The current income is not amazing (see revenue growth below).

I was initially inspired to create my business from Johnny Nerd Out (thank you John).

Only the first two value propositions are up and running so far:

Servicing the DCIEB (dirt-cheap internet e-bike) and scooters.
Conversions of acoustics to electric

I'm hoping to add more revenue models like:
Battery testing (I've gat a CBA V w/500W amp)
Rentals
Classes
Consulting

So, what advice am I asking for?
Am I crazy?
Am I on the right track?
What am I doing wrong?
What am I missing?

Pricing: (repair and conversions)
I charge $80/hr for electrical work and $40/hr for mechanical. I end up discounting rates because I get stuck "learning" stuff and I move way too slow.
Frustrating examples include display/controller coms (CANBUS vs UART), 9 pin Julet sourced from CN with non-standard pin positions, re-lacing hubs with non-standard spokes, etc.
For conversions I charge 4.5 hours of labor ($360) + parts.

Purchasing/Sourcing:
I've done two big purchases from CN. Sailimotor and UPP (yes Amberwolf I've taken your opinion to heart, but have not gotten burned yet)
I need A LOT of help doing better in this area. I need to efficiently supply this business with mid-drives/hubs/batteries/controllers/displays/throttles/ebrakes/cables/connectors/etc. I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME trying to find the right stuff at wholesale. HELP! Is there a better way? What are the big suppliers out there anyway? I'm willing to put out cash for a few motors/batteries but I wait until the client comes in the door to order the replacement parts they need. I struggle with this. Until I have insurance (see below) I can't get an account at JBI.

Liability:
I'm frightened by the liability exposure. My quote was $5250/yr for two incidents at $1M each. Today (in my business networking group) an insurance guy just informed me about a $200k claim from FL. The house burned down and the battery supplier was not responsible but the claim is going forward. Every time I touch someone's CIEB (cheap internet e-bike) I assume the liability for the battery, motor, and frame. I spent a couple grand writing up a three page waiver but I'm still frightened. It's not the rider that will sue me, it's the insurance company or PI lawyer. I HAVE to increase revenue enough to afford this (unfortunately).

Poor People Transit:
The need for "equitable access to transit" (my B corp mission) is HUGE! Late stage capitalism has created an entire underclass of workers unable to get to work affordably. I'm in a VERY car-centric location. Woe be to the biker or pedestrian here (Lehigh Valley, PA). These guys are risking their lives (more so than in other places for sure, with apologies to the rest of the developing world) to get to their fast-food job. Bus service here is adequate but not like in the more dense cities. Somehow I've got to/want to service these people and get them affordable transit. This means repairing a crap bike cheaply or providing a replacement that they can afford. Have i emphasized the ENORMOUS NEED enough?

Revenue growth:
Currently this business is not gonna fly without more growth. I've got to repair faster (with already sourced and stocked parts), and I've got to find and develop more customers/business models. Since I'm new and just getting on my feet, I've done almost no marketing. What are the ways/strategies to build interest and how does that translate to income? I've never had a Facebook account and have reluctantly done Instagram (yes I'm older). I'm gonna have to submit to the FANG overlords even more I assume.

Thank you!

 

[amberwolf]

I've started in my garage, been going since summer 2022. I'm recovering from an initial $15,000 investment, now about $9000 in the hole. My capitol expenditures are mostly done, so the trend line is positive. I hope to break even next year. The current income is not amazing (see revenue growth below).

If you break even in less than a few years, you're probably doing better than most small businesses that I have ever talked to the owners of, especially these days.

Servicing the DCIEB (dirt-cheap internet e-bike) and scooters.
Conversions of acoustics to electric

I'm hoping to add more revenue models like:
Battery testing (I've gat a CBA V w/500W amp)
Rentals
Classes
Consulting

Almost certainly you are more likely to make (safer) money from classes and/or consulting for DIYers than actually doing the work for them, especially if you are not actually touching their stuff and can't be directly responsible for breaking it. IANAL but suspect that it is easier to legally isolate yourself from results of poor advice than of actions.

Rentals...from the few renters that have posted here on ES, that can be a big bag of messy rotting cans of worms. Again IANAL but I suspect you are liable not only for the actual bikes but even for the things that happen to the riders (unless you can prove it was their own actions that caused their grief).

Battery testing...I think you're going to want significant insurance for that, and then you will need to follow the exact letter of all of the insurance company's requirements for safety procedures and equipment--if they don't have that, you should really talk in detail to them about the whole process and "what happens if?"; what will they still pay for in the event of?, etc. One catastrophic failure for any reason, and it's potentially legal shark feeding time, with no cage.

DCIEBs and DIY build fixes...that is a gigantic can of worms for every single build, because they're all different. Even the "same" DCIEB from two different batches could be wildly different insides with the same stickers on the outside; you end up dealing with each one as if it were a (possibly botched) DIY.


Conversions could be easier...but you should probably bill for research time, and make a form they must fill out in detail with all of their requirements and riding conditions and riding style *and budget*, and discuss this with them as they fill it out. That way you can go simulate what they're going to need, power wise, and make sure they get stuff that can actually do it. Same for their system requirements--most people have no idea what ebikes *can* do, or how any of the parts function, or any of the options they have available functionally. So they build or have-built something, then find out there is a thing they want it to do their stuff doesn't do, and have to change everything out to do that. Or do serious rewiring, etc. This whole section I could expand into lengthy discussion about functionality...you can read my advice posts to noob conversionists over the years here to see a lot of it. (when we get our knowledgebase forum setup I'll be making posts there about such things for global reference).

You could probably research a handful of "kits" that do various things using very commonly available parts from many sellers, so you don't run into the out-of-stock problem. I would try to use existing sold-as-kits wherever possible, so that you have as little time wasted figuring out connections and such as possible. Most of the big-name cheap stuff (voilamart, etc) works perfectly well for most people, and some of them even have warranties you could take advantage of if stuff doesn't work (most stuff from most places you're very likely to be just stuck with).

Whenever a customer's needs don't fit one of these kits, you can custom build them something based on such a kit and *just* change the parts you have to.

Am I crazy?

Yes. But there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. (keeping in mind that you're reading the advice of another such, on a site full of them).

What am I doing wrong?

Without knowing every action and every situation, I coudln't say specifically...but taking on "random" builds (DIYers and DCIEBs) is going to mean a large learning curve every single time, a lot of time you probably can't bill them for (because it could run into dozens of hours just learning what you need to know to figure each individual bike out), and spending similar time looking into replacement parts to preserve functionality, many of which parts are not going to end up being usable for one reason or another, and not billable to the customer (unless you include that necessity in advance).

If I were doing the job I do here on ES for myself as a company, I would probably have gone out of business long ago. If it weren't for the legal risks I probably would have tried it anyway, but since *just one* problematic customer could result in what would legally/financially amount to the end of my life (which is poor enough as it is), I took a pass on the whole idea. Since people too-often refuse to be responsible for their own problems and successfully take out their issues on others via the legal system (leaving out all the other alternatives), it's not worth it.

Pricing: (repair and conversions)
I charge $80/hr for electrical work and $40/hr for mechanical. I end up discounting rates because I get stuck "learning" stuff and I move way too slow.
Frustrating examples include display/controller coms (CANBUS vs UART), 9 pin Julet sourced from CN with non-standard pin positions, re-lacing hubs with non-standard spokes, etc.

Not being a business owner, my advice is worth only what it costs, but based on my listening to / reading of others' travails, your best bet is to discuss the likely costs with the potential customer before they even sign up. Get a signed release that they're ok with up to a couple thousand dollars in parts and labor before you even look at it, if it's not something you have worked on before and already know what you're going to have to do.

If you have to give away a lot of labor, and waste money on parts that don't "fit" (or have to be modified), you're going to either lose money overall or make money so slowly that if you get past the red at all, it's going to take a long time.

For conversions I charge 4.5 hours of labor ($360) + parts.

Does that inlcude your research time into making sure the bike will do all the things they need it to? And your time working with them to make sure the bike they're converting will still work correclty or well after the conversion, without a lot of messing about by you (possibly unpaid) to adapt it?

Purchasing/Sourcing:

Batteries...those are tough, because it's so tempting to go cheap to keep prices down, and more often than not the cheap stuff does the job...but the *one time* that it doesn't work out, is much more likely to be that time it's a complete disaster.

If you can talk to Grin about what suppliers they use, that might be safe enough. Otherwise, personally, I would go with other well-known supliers like EM3EV, and just make your customers understand that battery safety and quality is more important than anything else. If they want to go cheap, they'll just have to go get it themselves and that you won't be liable for problems or even if their system doesn't work with it. That if it isn't the battery you would get for the system, they're on their own.

It is going to keep a number of customers from being able to afford you...but it is very likely to save you a lot of grief down the road.


Wholesale, I can't help with; you might be stuck buying containerloads of stuff via Alibaba to get really good prices and that's probably a bad idea unless you are also going to start an internet store on Amazon and Ebay and your own website to sell off most of the stuff. (and...if what they send you isn't what you ordered, or doesn't work, or some other entire-batch thing, you cant ship it back because it will probably cost as much as the stuff itself to do so).

But if you can go the ultracheap kit route for most conversions, and just deal with the customer on increasing their budgets for those that don't fit in a kit, it might keep costs down enough to work out.

Liability:
I'm frightened by the liability exposure. My quote was $5250/yr for two incidents at $1M each. Today (in my business networking group) an insurance guy just informed me about a $200k claim from FL. The house burned down and the battery supplier was not responsible but the claim is going forward. Every time I touch someone's CIEB (cheap internet e-bike) I assume the liability for the battery, motor, and frame. I spent a couple grand writing up a three page waiver but I'm still frightened. It's not the rider that will sue me, it's the insurance company or PI lawyer. I HAVE to increase revenue enough to afford this (unfortunately).

This stuff I can't help you with. It's the reason I have not turned this into a business myself, not even consulting. There are always people I meet while out riding or stowing groceries into my trike, etc., that want me to build them something, usually something like my trike...but I don't know what they're like, and how they treat people, etc., so I usually just start with the "well, depending on what you want to do it could cost at least as much as a good used car", and they're almost always done with the idea right then (because most of them think it shouldn't cost more than a hundred bucks or so, I mean, it's just a bicycle, right? :lol: ).

Those that don't run away at the potential cost I point to this forum, and ask them to create an account and a thread with the specifics of their needs so we can work out what they might have to build. I don't think I have ever seen one of them post here yet.

Poor People Transit:
The need for "equitable access to transit" (my B corp mission) is HUGE! Late stage capitalism has created an entire underclass of workers unable to get to work affordably. I'm in a VERY car-centric location. Woe be to the biker or pedestrian here (Lehigh Valley, PA). These guys are risking their lives (more so than in other places for sure, with apologies to the rest of the developing world) to get to their fast-food job. Bus service here is adequate but not like in the more dense cities. Somehow I've got to/want to service these people and get them affordable transit. This means repairing a crap bike cheaply or providing a replacement that they can afford. Have i emphasized the ENORMOUS NEED enough?

PPT builds or repairs is something you will probably have to virtually give away, based on their resources and abilities. You may be able to do something where they learn from you how to do what they need to do, while you are working on paying customer's systems (but not letting them touch anything, for liability), and work with local volunteer bike-repair co-ops on the mechanical end of things, and maybe even make deals with your local thrift stores / goodwills to hold onto usable bikes for you to have the option of buying before they put them out. (you probably can't make an official contract with them but you can probably work out something with some of the people that work there to give you a call whenever stuff like that comes in).

Maybe you can use leftover parts (that didnt' fit or wouldn't work for some repair) that would otherwise sit unused to sell very cheaply (to recover at least some part of cost) to PPT DIYers willing to learn enough on their own to use them. (I started out as someone just like that, and all of my builds have used donations of parts from ES members to start or fix things over the years). Make a deal with them that whatever they don't use, they pass on to someone else in the same situation they are, and that they pass on the teaching too.

I've long wanted to do something like that, but the whole liability thing, and people being people (too often wanting the easy way out vs working for it), has kept me from ever doing it.

Currently this business is not gonna fly without more growth. I've got to repair faster (with already sourced and stocked parts), and I've got to find and develop more customers/business models.

If you have to stock parts...for cost and space reasons you're almost certainly going to have to stick with kits of stuff for conversions, ones that don't change much over the years, and use those as much as possible to do repairs with as well, and any parts you don't use out of one kit you can use to fix another bike later on. It's very likely to be cheaper to only order other parts when you need them than it is to invest in stuff you're not useing, and to have accessible storage space for them all, and pay taxes on all the stuff you keep around, and insure it all, etc.


Regarding marketing, I'm not much help. I've been making music (and other art) for decades and have never successfully broken into any market (but if I could do "anything" for a living, being an artist making my own art for it's own sake is what I would rather be doing). I think (at best) perhaps a hundred people have probably listened (all the way thru a song) to any music I've ever published on the internet, despite using various social media platforms to advertise it. Those that *have* listened rarely give me any feedback, but of the very rare ones that do, they typically say I should be "on the radio" or "doing this for a living" or some such thing. But they don't spread the word to anyone else (even people they already know), so nothing happens. (I can't afford to market myself, as it is almost certainly never going to pay off....)

 

[nicobie]

From a guy that's been self-employed since I was 23 I think I can offer you a bit of advice.

First, did you know that 90% of new businesses fail within the first 2 years. That said, don't let me discourage you from giving it a go.

On the liability aspect, Unless you have a lot that can be taken away don't worry about lawsuits. That is until you do have attractive assets that a lawyer might like. Don't be afraid to take a chance.

Realize that most days will be 10+ hours long. 7 days a week will be normal.

When it comes to a parts supplier, most are looking for volume. Expect to have to warehouse a few parts. Grin has a wholesale program (Ithink) Talk to Justin.

Having an accurate bookkeeping system is vital to your survival. Pay yourself every week what it will take to cover your miminal needs. If you can't cover that 3 weeks in a row, shut the thing down. Don't dig a bigger hole.

Good luck. It can be done.

 

[orcasprout]

I'll reply backwards here...thank you both and for those people READING, please weigh in!

Nicobie:
-Yes I know about failure rate, I've thought a lot about this. Can't afford to NOT try! I've got a brain that burns! Argh
-I own my house but its joint with the wife who is not part of the LLC. I believe that asset is not as risk. Yes its a "out on the edge of the diving board" moment for me.
-I've been working 10hour days/7days a week for a year now!
-Grin supplier discount is on my radar and already researched.
-I'm switching hats at a rapid rate. Bookkeeper, invoice writer, taxes, marketing, purchasing, ES reader, volunteer with non-profit LBS, AND eBike technician that (most of the time) effects an actual repair or converts an acoustic to an eBike.
-Since the house is paid for, I do ALL the shopping, cooking, house-husband duties while the wife gets the grocery money. I've not paid myself yet but am aware of the business community's opinion of this issue. If the the value prop does not generate a sufficient return the enterprise is to be ended or pivot towards value. Yes I get it.
Thank you for the support!

 

[orcasprout]

Amberwolf. Thanks for all this, really good material for me to work over.

-Safer money teaching, got it.

-Rentals = Can of Worms

-Battery testing feels risky for you. I disagree, as long as I don't burn the garage down. I'd be providing Amp hour and Voltage data. Information only.

-Cheap eBike repair: I'm ok with it so for. I feel like I'm getting a handle on the troubleshooting logic sequence. Labor cost will be communicated quickly and I'll find out how much appetite there is for this "Can of worms" as well. Value proposition testing in progress!

-Conversions: Your reflections are good but what stands out for me? FUNCTIONALITY (and) KNOWLEDGEBASE!

I'll go back and see how much of your (many) noob conversion advice gets to functionality but I'd love to have a resource knowledgebase. As I said before, I'm learning the "troubleshooting repair sequence" and it's just a series of simple "knowledge pieces" that string together. I'm visualizing a bunch of stuff here in a "meta-verse" way except it's all in my head like a virtual library.

-Thanks for wanting to do something like this, its validation for my crazy self.

-I'm also a "musician" and lurked at your studio stuff. BEING

 

[orcasprout]

Amberwolf. Thanks for all this, really good material for me to work over.

-Safer money teaching, got it.

-Rentals = Can of Worms

-Battery testing feels risky for you. I disagree, as long as I don't burn the garage down. I'd be providing Amp hour and Voltage data. Information only.

-Cheap eBike repair: I'm ok with it so for. I feel like I'm getting a handle on the troubleshooting logic sequence. Labor cost will be communicated quickly and I'll find out how much appetite there is for this "Can of worms" as well. Value proposition testing in progress!

-Conversions: Your reflections are good but what stands out for me? FUNCTIONALITY (and) KNOWLEDGEBASE!

I'll go back and see how much of your (many) noob conversion advice gets to functionality but I'd love to have a resource knowledgebase. As I said before, I'm learning the "troubleshooting repair sequence" and it's just a series of simple "knowledge pieces" that string together. I'm visualizing a bunch of stuff here in a "meta-verse" way except it's all in my head like a virtual library.

-Thanks for wanting to do something like this, its validation for my crazy self.

-I'm also a "musician" and lurked at your studio stuff. BEING

the artist is worth the ride itself. Your riffing/improvising here on ES and you have a large audience for your LEV "music". thank you

 

[amberwolf]

-Battery testing feels risky for you. I disagree, as long as I don't burn the garage down. I'd be providing Amp hour and Voltage data. Information only.

Mostly it's just that any unknown-condition battery (which will be every single one brought to you, on a bike or not) has the risk that it could be damaged in a way that could lead to a fire...while it's there with you, even if you are not doing anything with it. Remember that these cheap bikes come with cheap batteries--the cheapest thing they can get away with, and the battery probably has as much QC as any other part of the bike...which is bad since cheap batteries already skirt around various safety measures, and often get used harder than they are really capable of.

It's not a likely event, but the consequences of it are so dire as to be avoided at every opportunity.

As long as you can get your insurance to cover something like that, and the structure they are stored and tested and handled in is separate and distant from the living structure, with adequate alarms to wake you in the event of, I suppose it doesn't matter.

If the structures are connected or close, remember that a battery fire is very hot and happens very fast, and can be uncontrollable.

I don't want to scare you away from doing things you need to do, but I want to help make sure you're taking adequate precautions--these events do kill people and other living things and I wouldn't want you and yours to be among them.

I'll go back and see how much of your (many) noob conversion advice gets to functionality but I'd love to have a resource knowledgebase. As I said before, I'm learning the "troubleshooting repair sequence" and it's just a series of simple "knowledge pieces" that string together. I'm visualizing a bunch of stuff here in a "meta-verse" way except it's all in my head like a virtual library.

The main thing about troubleshooting something is that you have to understand how the blocks you are working with function (not necessarily at component level, but certain kinds of failures are caused by specific failure modes and behaviors of specific discrete components, so it helps), and how they can fail. This site is an unsorted uncatalogued library of that kind of information, so if you have the time (hours or more) you can always look up old problem threads--even if they don't have a resolution the explanations by others helping out may give you the info you need to understand the problem.



*********************************************************************
Note lots of depressed whininess below, so feel free to skip the rest of the post.

-I'm also a "musician" and lurked at your studio stuff. BEINGthe artist is worth the ride itself.

While I enjoy creating the music, and would have to do it (or explode) even if the rest of the world was deaf and had no idea I even existed, it's beyond frustrating, depressing, etc., that I know that almost no one will ever hear it. (especially since way back when I could go to scifi conventions and play in the consuites I had lots of people that said it was really good and asked me if I was going to make tapes/etc, but when I finally did I sold so few (almost none to those that had been asking for them) that I realized nearly everyone was just being polite. I am much better at making the music itself now, and filtering it for real people instead of just my own wierd multitrack mind, but it hasn't changed anything except that I'm more proud of making stuff almost no one else cares about. I'm sure many artists, probably most, have the same problem...but it doesn't make me feel any better.

Your riffing/improvising here on ES and you have a large audience for your LEV "music". thank you

I suppose I can see how it could be seen as similar, but to me they are completely different things. They come from different places in me, in different ways...posting here on ES is my "best" form of social interaction (other than at work, virtually the only one), but my music is isolated creation, "sculpting" it over and over until it is refined to the closest thing I can make to what I hear in my head (I can never actually get that, though). The music comes from a place in me that I don't have any conscious access to; it either is there, or it isn't. (oh, I can just draw in notes on the screen that sound musicky but they don't come from in there where the good bits start out at).

(I *have* tried to collaborate over the years, but it has only worked once, with Convocation of Lies, and even that didn't do what I had hoped for, even if I was able to use the results, and it makes the song better than it was with just me. Normally I just get ignored when I ask, or suggest, the same way I do when I contact even other amateurs about using my music in their videos, etc. Or I get polite "that's really cool" and whatnot, but they're not actually interested in it, and I doubt they actually think it's any good, if they even actually listened to any of it at all--mostly I am certain they did not because the stats on the sites it's on tell me something about where the very few listens it ever gets come from).

 

[leffex]

I think you think to much. Learn to just do sometimes. I learned yesterday that if the body "feels" tired in an instant like if you have a customer give you that feeling it simply means the work load for this guy will be high and the reward low per hour.

Liability.
Don't charge batteries untended. And when the workday is over, disconnect all charging batteries. Store customer bikes outside in a shed that is not in close vicinity to your house. Plan your "Shop" so that the most charging stuff is in one corner and that batteries are stored a few meters away at least.

However

Testing batteries doesn't require a machine to run. Some easy things is to measure voltage of the battery. 29,4v for a fully charged 24v battery, 42v for a 36v battery and 54,6v for a 48v battery. That is the maximum and if a 42v battery is 43v, never seen, or between 30-41v it may mean trouble. The lower fully charged voltage means the capacity of the battery is very low and will cut of as something on the inside protects you in this case and every human being with safety circuits.

Something I started using recently is a 3d- printer. I would recommend a Flashforge adventurer 3 pro (or 2 faster version) or 4 pro.

You dowload a ready made user 3d file, use a program and have stuff printed in a few hours and there are thousands of available prints. On printables and thingverse. Many stuff for bikes, ebikes etc. That is also a hobby in itself and you can make vases, funnel, kitchen measurement tools

 

[nicobie]

I noticed you said that you own a paid for house and your wife has a job. Never underestimate what a lawyer can do to you. I promise you that if you own it and it's worth something, a lawyer CAN take it away from you. I'm not only talking about property but incomes too.

I strongly suggest that you invest in an hours of a lawyer's time. No matter what he charges you, it would be cheap at twice the price.

 

[orcasprout]

I've invested many many hours/days of lawyer time. I have a (tiny font) waiver to show for it.

I've invested multiple hours/days shopping for liability insurance. Apparently there are only two firms that will even consider covering my model. I learned that once you are talking to one firm, the other firm sees this posted on some insider board and drops their interest/won't counter offer. It's a back room collusion oligarchy of the insurance market.

The quote was for $5250/year. I'm just starting out. There is NO WAY to rationalize this for what is (currently) a sub 10K revenue business.

What I'm going on now is that the wife is not part of the business and thus the assets held jointly are not "available". The LLC's assets consist of a truing stand and bits of wire. I've not invested in inventory, I order as clients need parts. If a leach wants to take me for everything they can try and sell the bits of wire at auction.

 

[nicobie]

If your lawyer says you aren't exposed to losing your shit, then go for it.

 

[richj8990]

This is why 95% of the bike shops will absolutely not touch anything electrical unless the customer bought the whole ebike from them directly (or they bought the ebike for the customer and had it shipped). The other 5% end up getting frustrated with problems and the customer does too.

Example: a few years ago I could not get PAS to work, took it into the one bike shop that would actually try to work on it. $300 later, they handed me back the bike disconnected and said they can't get it to work. I could have instead bought a whole new hub drive kit for $300. With PAS sensor, laced hub, controller, everything but the battery. It was ridiculous, frustrating for me and them. What I found out later is that the PAS sensor I had was KT-specific, display/controller was EBikeling / SW900 specific. No communication between them, even though it was 3-pin male to female. Bike shop didn't know, I didn't know. That was a stupid, simple problem but they tried everything and charged by the hour trying. Don't get into situations like that. And unfortunately if someone brings in their $500 big box ebike with a problem, it's going to be 'that' kind of situation over and over again. You won't be happy, customer won't be happy. I would say only work on bikes that are still under warranty and you know 'someone' is going to pay for that, with very specific and clear protocols for the motor / controller / display. Better to turn down bad business than accept it. The $500 ebike I bought for a relative as a gift is a throw-away bike; once it has a big problem, it's in the trash. It should not be brought into any bike shop, not worth it.

 

[orcasprout]

This is why 95% of the bike shops will absolutely not touch anything electrical unless the customer bought the whole ebike from them directly (or they bought the ebike for the customer and had it shipped). The other 5% end up getting frustrated with problems and the customer does too.

Example: a few years ago I could not get PAS to work, took it into the one bike shop that would actually try to work on it. $300 later, they handed me back the bike disconnected and said they can't get it to work. I could have instead bought a whole new hub drive kit for $300. With PAS sensor, laced hub, controller, everything but the battery. It was ridiculous, frustrating for me and them. What I found out later is that the PAS sensor I had was KT-specific, display/controller was EBikeling / SW900 specific. No communication between them, even though it was 3-pin male to female. Bike shop didn't know, I didn't know. That was a stupid, simple problem but they tried everything and charged by the hour trying. Don't get into situations like that. And unfortunately if someone brings in their $500 big box ebike with a problem, it's going to be 'that' kind of situation over and over again. You won't be happy, customer won't be happy. I would say only work on bikes that are still under warranty and you know 'someone' is going to pay for that, with very specific and clear protocols for the motor / controller / display. Better to turn down bad business than accept it. The $500 ebike I bought for a relative as a gift is a throw-away bike; once it has a big problem, it's in the trash. It should not be brought into any bike shop, not worth it.

Thank you for the reflections, I see/hear your points.

Wow! you just described a recent client repair situation. I tried and tried and tried to get the right combo of PAS/controller/display. What a pain and I returned the bike back! I felt like a failure. At least he had throttle, but come on.

OK, so really I need to be able to determine communication protocols, have compatible inventory on hand, and efficiently swap parts. As you state, a "stupid, simple problem" is a good turn of value for me (or anyone really). I'll need to think more about this.

People are bringing in their $500 eBikes because that's what the market is flooded with. I didn't create this problem. Can I provide a viable solution? I'd love to hear more opinions please?

Amberwolf mentioned a high volume supplier as a source of inexpensive replacement parts. Yes, If the client can handle another $500 ($300 + labor) then they are back on the road. Sure they are paying extra for low quality, it is what it is. Can I adapt?

 

[orcasprout]

If your lawyer says you aren't exposed to losing your shit, then go for it.

I'm goin' for it already! I'm hoping my knees aren't skinned too bad if I take the big bike ramp!

 

[orcasprout]

I think you think to much. Learn to just do sometimes. I learned yesterday that if the body "feels" tired in an instant like if you have a customer give you that feeling it simply means the work load for this guy will be high and the reward low per hour.

YOU ARE 100% correct. I think too much, argh. Thank you. I also just had a client that is as you describe. I'm gonna check in with my "tired" form now on. thank you

 

[99t4]

People are bringing in their $500 eBikes because that's what the market is flooded with. I didn't create this problem. Can I provide a viable solution? I'd love to hear more opinions please?

So this looks like the majority of your business model. A $500 ebike owner WILL NOT invest in a repair that approaches that value. Maybe not even half that. They will simply buy a new one. Can you fix them and get them out the door for less and be happy about whatever profit you can extract?

 

[orcasprout]

So far this is the business that is coming to my door. I could have expected this I suppose.

I've just turned away one of my former clients. His Wildfire 36v (three lead acid in series) POS was OVERCHARGED at 44 volts when he brought it in. He has a LOT of challenges. He needed something TODAY and he had $200. I told him I could build a rent-to-own with a $500 deposit.

How cheaply can an eBike be built?
$350 Battery
$250 Kit
$200 Donor bike
$360 Labor (Shop, purchase, receive, prep, install, adjust, test) 4.5 hours @$80/hr

$1160 Not including taxes, overhead, and everything else.

 

[MorbidlyObeseKoala]

Free opinions from a guy that doesn't have the guts to do this:

I don't know what a small car mechanic's shop pays in liability insurance but I am positive they have similar problems of overconfident fools bringing in a heap of junk and asking for miracles in a day or 2. Surely there is some legal precedent of a major fuel or automotive problem causing property damage and the mechanic keeping their business but I don't know. I'm not a lawyer so that's why my opinion is free.

Additionally looking at that small business model, most places near me charge a flat diagnosis fee of $100 to look at the car and assess repairs. Certainly there are situations where they lose money on that diagnosis time but they have a realistic estimate of repairing the issue or solving one of the problems and the customer on the hook for a little money (you could charge that up front for the best honesty out of customers).

If you don't already have something of a kit or an offering of a portion of the work done (rather than only the total job done by you), that seems to be a decent side business in a lot of the DIY Facebook groups. For instance, Electro & Co has a reasonable list of kits/parts even though everything is from China and people could collect from Aliexpress on their own. They have put the correct connectors on for a plug and play install, they have a controller set up preprogrammed and presumably offer some level of quality control before it gets to you slightly faster because their inventory is in America before you order it. There are dozens of other smaller sellers now that get large orders of stuff from Ebay/Aliexpress, put connectors or "custom mounts" or a few menial upgrades and then charge 2-3x the material cost for the convenience and shorter shipping time.

Could you maybe partner with somebody that has a lot of decent donor bikes and then you could get some electric components together to get the customer 80% of the way there? Tell them a few battery makers you'd suggest and pitch your class if they want more hand-holding through the process. Maybe that was your plan for the class anyways.

This post is getting too long now...Good luck, interested to see how it goes for you.

 

[UtahPete]

Hello ES!

I'm a long time lurker. Thank you to all the "oldies" for the generous donations of time and knowledge. I'm functional and "here" because of you!

After several different lifetimes of making a very few people rich from my labor, I decided that MY talent and passion can take a lap before I exit this world. I'm a tree-hugger from way back and the LEV plays a big part in my efforts to make this world a better place. Since I'm not able to take a "LEV Sabbatical" at Grin, I figure you all at ES are the next best source of advice.

Please weigh in with your reflections, opinions, criticisms, and advice. (I've got a thick skin, don't worry) Please and thank you.

I've started in my garage, been going since summer 2022. I'm recovering from an initial $15,000 investment, now about $9000 in the hole. My capitol expenditures are mostly done, so the trend line is positive. I hope to break even next year. The current income is not amazing (see revenue growth below).

I was initially inspired to create my business from Johnny Nerd Out (thank you John).

Only the first two value propositions are up and running so far:

Servicing the DCIEB (dirt-cheap internet e-bike) and scooters.
Conversions of acoustics to electric

I'm hoping to add more revenue models like:
Battery testing (I've gat a CBA V w/500W amp)
Rentals
Classes
Consulting

So, what advice am I asking for?
Am I crazy?
Am I on the right track?
What am I doing wrong?
What am I missing?

Pricing: (repair and conversions)
I charge $80/hr for electrical work and $40/hr for mechanical. I end up discounting rates because I get stuck "learning" stuff and I move way too slow.
Frustrating examples include display/controller coms (CANBUS vs UART), 9 pin Julet sourced from CN with non-standard pin positions, re-lacing hubs with non-standard spokes, etc.
For conversions I charge 4.5 hours of labor ($360) + parts.

Purchasing/Sourcing:
I've done two big purchases from CN. Sailimotor and UPP (yes Amberwolf I've taken your opinion to heart, but have not gotten burned yet)
I need A LOT of help doing better in this area. I need to efficiently supply this business with mid-drives/hubs/batteries/controllers/displays/throttles/ebrakes/cables/connectors/etc. I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME trying to find the right stuff at wholesale. HELP! Is there a better way? What are the big suppliers out there anyway? I'm willing to put out cash for a few motors/batteries but I wait until the client comes in the door to order the replacement parts they need. I struggle with this. Until I have insurance (see below) I can't get an account at JBI.

Liability:
I'm frightened by the liability exposure. My quote was $5250/yr for two incidents at $1M each. Today (in my business networking group) an insurance guy just informed me about a $200k claim from FL. The house burned down and the battery supplier was not responsible but the claim is going forward. Every time I touch someone's CIEB (cheap internet e-bike) I assume the liability for the battery, motor, and frame. I spent a couple grand writing up a three page waiver but I'm still frightened. It's not the rider that will sue me, it's the insurance company or PI lawyer. I HAVE to increase revenue enough to afford this (unfortunately).

Poor People Transit:
The need for "equitable access to transit" (my B corp mission) is HUGE! Late stage capitalism has created an entire underclass of workers unable to get to work affordably. I'm in a VERY car-centric location. Woe be to the biker or pedestrian here (Lehigh Valley, PA). These guys are risking their lives (more so than in other places for sure, with apologies to the rest of the developing world) to get to their fast-food job. Bus service here is adequate but not like in the more dense cities. Somehow I've got to/want to service these people and get them affordable transit. This means repairing a crap bike cheaply or providing a replacement that they can afford. Have i emphasized the ENORMOUS NEED enough?

Revenue growth:
Currently this business is not gonna fly without more growth. I've got to repair faster (with already sourced and stocked parts), and I've got to find and develop more customers/business models. Since I'm new and just getting on my feet, I've done almost no marketing. What are the ways/strategies to build interest and how does that translate to income? I've never had a Facebook account and have reluctantly done Instagram (yes I'm older). I'm gonna have to submit to the FANG overlords even more I assume.

Thank you!

I know nothing about you...your past jobs, your existing skills (including people skills), your local visibility and reputation, etc. So I can't really address what personal obstacles you may be facing. Entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart!

As to marketing, are you located in a large metro area with a built-in potential local market, or are you out in the sticks somewhere? Also, once you have a prospect on the hook, are you able to close a sale at a price that actually makes it worthwhile? Do you have local competition for the high-end repairs that are profitable?

Do you need to generate a replacement income for yourself after quitting a job or are you retired with sufficient income and would just like your hobby to pay for itself (I'm in this latter category)? Once you generate a steady clientele, how are you going to be able to shut the doors for awhile to go on vacation? Have you really stopped to think about why you even want to do this (i.e. why it made sense to you in the first place?)

I'm a retired small business consultant, btw.

 

[orcasprout]

I know nothing about you...your past jobs, your existing skills (including people skills), your local visibility and reputation, etc. So I can't really address what personal obstacles you may be facing. Entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart!

As to marketing, are you located in a large metro area with a built-in potential local market, or are you out in the sticks somewhere? Also, once you have a prospect on the hook, are you able to close a sale at a price that actually makes it worthwhile? Do you have local competition for the high-end repairs that are profitable?

Do you need to generate a replacement income for yourself after quitting a job or are you retired with sufficient income and would just like your hobby to pay for itself (I'm in this latter category)? Once you generate a steady clientele, how are you going to be able to shut the doors for awhile to go on vacation? Have you really stopped to think about why you even want to do this (i.e. why it made sense to you in the first place?)

I'm a retired small business consultant, btw.

College dropout, pizza delivery driver, pizza shop manager, wannabe franchisee (Dominos). Plastic factory worker, QC tech, QC lab supervisor, college graduate, high school science teacher, back to plastic factory to put wife through nursing school, now trying not to punch clock for a rich guy and doing this full time. Wife is graciously supporting at the moment.

I have a fantastic personality (IMHO) and I love networking and engaging with people. Total extrovert.

I don't need replacement income (house paid off) but need to start contributing to household expenses and contributing to retirement account again. Loving being an entrepreneur! I'm located in a SPREAD OUT mid-size city (~850,000) with NO bicycle infrastructure. 6 LBS + Bike Co-op. I also volunteer at Co-op. I had to step down as board member to start this business (conflict of interest).

I'm working on pricing and closing jobs for reasonable amount. I don't like to turn people away or ask for "extra" fees. I'm the ONLY eBike repair shop regionally. I've had people call from ALL over (30+ miles and did a conversion for someone from the Jersey Shore).
Why do I want to do this? I LOVE transit and efficiency. Been wanting to be my own boss for decades. I want to help poor people AND promote LEV transit regionally. Ebikes are super cool and I love my (personal) Grin set-up with REGEN!

Marketing! This is my weak spot. I've NEVER had a Facebook account and I'm super hesitant to join the social media circus ( I do have an Instagram at the insistence from my daughter) I know know, everyone says I have to do it. Argh! I'm actively engaged in this and will develop a "brand" going forward. Yes I need to narrate a story about me and my brand and connect that to the emotional purchasing centers in a client's brain. Sell the problem, not the solution. Etc.

 

[nicobie]

FB & Craig's list will help but word of mouth will be the best marketing you can do.

All you need is the best product for the best price and your customers will find you. However try not to give it away. It will be tempting but don't do it.

 

[UtahPete]

From a guy that's been self-employed since I was 23 I think I can offer you a bit of advice.

First, did you know that 90% of new businesses fail within the first 2 years. That said, don't let me discourage you from giving it a go.

On the liability aspect, Unless you have a lot that can be taken away don't worry about lawsuits. That is until you do have attractive assets that a lawyer might like. Don't be afraid to take a chance.

Realize that most days will be 10+ hours long. 7 days a week will be normal.

When it comes to a parts supplier, most are looking for volume. Expect to have to warehouse a few parts. Grin has a wholesale program (Ithink) Talk to Justin.

Having an accurate bookkeeping system is vital to your survival. Pay yourself every week what it will take to cover your miminal needs. If you can't cover that 3 weeks in a row, shut the thing down. Don't dig a bigger hole.

Good luck. It can be done.

College dropout, pizza delivery driver, pizza shop manager, wannabe franchisee (Dominos). Plastic factory worker, QC tech, QC lab supervisor, college graduate, high school science teacher, back to plastic factory to put wife through nursing school, now trying not to punch clock for a rich guy and doing this full time. Wife is graciously supporting at the moment.

I have a fantastic personality (IMHO) and I love networking and engaging with people. Total extrovert.

I don't need replacement income (house paid off) but need to start contributing to household expenses and contributing to retirement account again. Loving being an entrepreneur! I'm located in a SPREAD OUT mid-size city (~850,000) with NO bicycle infrastructure. 6 LBS + Bike Co-op. I also volunteer at Co-op. I had to step down as board member to start this business (conflict of interest).

I'm working on pricing and closing jobs for reasonable amount. I don't like to turn people away or ask for "extra" fees. I'm the ONLY eBike repair shop regionally. I've had people call from ALL over (30+ miles and did a conversion for someone from the Jersey Shore).
Why do I want to do this? I LOVE transit and efficiency. Been wanting to be my own boss for decades. I want to help poor people AND promote LEV transit regionally. Ebikes are super cool and I love my (personal) Grin set-up with REGEN!

Marketing! This is my weak spot. I've NEVER had a Facebook account and I'm super hesitant to join the social media circus ( I do have an Instagram at the insistence from my daughter) I know know, everyone says I have to do it. Argh! I'm actively engaged in this and will develop a "brand" going forward. Yes I need to narrate a story about me and my brand and connect that to the emotional purchasing centers in a client's brain. Sell the problem, not the solution. Etc.

Great bio for an entrepreneur I think! I believe you can make this work. Two significant challenges that I see; a) you're not yet confident enough with your actual e-bike technical skills to sell yourself as a trusted expert on the subject and b) you need a marketing strategy that works for you and your target market demographic. Otherwise you're in danger of being viewed as a jack-of-all-trades-and master of none.

Let's start with the second issue, marketing strategy. Who is your target market, what is the problem you want to solve for them and how do you want to be perceived by them in 2 years? Once you nail that down, we can go to the next step.

 

[nicobie]

Listen to Utah Pete. Looks like he was getting paid for his advice. Myself I can only speak to what it takes to own a successful wholesale food distribution company. Not actually what you are trying to do.

 

[UtahPete]

I've invested many many hours/days of lawyer time. I have a (tiny font) waiver to show for it.

I've invested multiple hours/days shopping for liability insurance. Apparently there are only two firms that will even consider covering my model. I learned that once you are talking to one firm, the other firm sees this posted on some insider board and drops their interest/won't counter offer. It's a back room collusion oligarchy of the insurance market.

The quote was for $5250/year. I'm just starting out. There is NO WAY to rationalize this for what is (currently) a sub 10K revenue business.

What I'm going on now is that the wife is not part of the business and thus the assets held jointly are not "available". The LLC's assets consist of a truing stand and bits of wire. I've not invested in inventory, I order as clients need parts. If a leach wants to take me for everything they can try and sell the bits of wire at auction.

Just where exactly is your liability exposure coming from? Have the insurance agent or lawyer explained that? How can you reduce your exposure? Is there some aspect of the business that is creating this risk that you can avoid doing? I think many small businesses go without this coverage because of the cost; the smart ones avoid or minimize the activities that create an abnormal risk.

 

[Bumbler]

Hello ES!

I'm a long time lurker. Thank you to all the "oldies" for the generous donations of time and knowledge. I'm functional and "here" because of you!

After several different lifetimes of making a very few people rich from my labor, I decided that MY talent and passion can take a lap before I exit this world. I'm a tree-hugger from way back and the LEV plays a big part in my efforts to make this world a better place. Since I'm not able to take a "LEV Sabbatical" at Grin, I figure you all at ES are the next best source of advice.

Please weigh in with your reflections, opinions, criticisms, and advice. (I've got a thick skin, don't worry) Please and thank you.

I've started in my garage, been going since summer 2022. I'm recovering from an initial $15,000 investment, now about $9000 in the hole. My capitol expenditures are mostly done, so the trend line is positive. I hope to break even next year. The current income is not amazing (see revenue growth below).

I was initially inspired to create my business from Johnny Nerd Out (thank you John).

Only the first two value propositions are up and running so far:

Servicing the DCIEB (dirt-cheap internet e-bike) and scooters.
Conversions of acoustics to electric

I'm hoping to add more revenue models like:
Battery testing (I've gat a CBA V w/500W amp)
Rentals
Classes
Consulting

So, what advice am I asking for?
Am I crazy?
Am I on the right track?
What am I doing wrong?
What am I missing?

Pricing: (repair and conversions)
I charge $80/hr for electrical work and $40/hr for mechanical. I end up discounting rates because I get stuck "learning" stuff and I move way too slow.
Frustrating examples include display/controller coms (CANBUS vs UART), 9 pin Julet sourced from CN with non-standard pin positions, re-lacing hubs with non-standard spokes, etc.
For conversions I charge 4.5 hours of labor ($360) + parts.

Purchasing/Sourcing:
I've done two big purchases from CN. Sailimotor and UPP (yes Amberwolf I've taken your opinion to heart, but have not gotten burned yet)
I need A LOT of help doing better in this area. I need to efficiently supply this business with mid-drives/hubs/batteries/controllers/displays/throttles/ebrakes/cables/connectors/etc. I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME trying to find the right stuff at wholesale. HELP! Is there a better way? What are the big suppliers out there anyway? I'm willing to put out cash for a few motors/batteries but I wait until the client comes in the door to order the replacement parts they need. I struggle with this. Until I have insurance (see below) I can't get an account at JBI.

Liability:
I'm frightened by the liability exposure. My quote was $5250/yr for two incidents at $1M each. Today (in my business networking group) an insurance guy just informed me about a $200k claim from FL. The house burned down and the battery supplier was not responsible but the claim is going forward. Every time I touch someone's CIEB (cheap internet e-bike) I assume the liability for the battery, motor, and frame. I spent a couple grand writing up a three page waiver but I'm still frightened. It's not the rider that will sue me, it's the insurance company or PI lawyer. I HAVE to increase revenue enough to afford this (unfortunately).

Poor People Transit:
The need for "equitable access to transit" (my B corp mission) is HUGE! Late stage capitalism has created an entire underclass of workers unable to get to work affordably. I'm in a VERY car-centric location. Woe be to the biker or pedestrian here (Lehigh Valley, PA). These guys are risking their lives (more so than in other places for sure, with apologies to the rest of the developing world) to get to their fast-food job. Bus service here is adequate but not like in the more dense cities. Somehow I've got to/want to service these people and get them affordable transit. This means repairing a crap bike cheaply or providing a replacement that they can afford. Have i emphasized the ENORMOUS NEED enough?

Revenue growth:
Currently this business is not gonna fly without more growth. I've got to repair faster (with already sourced and stocked parts), and I've got to find and develop more customers/business models. Since I'm new and just getting on my feet, I've done almost no marketing. What are the ways/strategies to build interest and how does that translate to income? I've never had a Facebook account and have reluctantly done Instagram (yes I'm older). I'm gonna have to submit to the FANG overlords even more I assume.

Thank you

Just PM’d you about some repair work!