My next e-bike build - BBSHD with hydraulic IGH

[Mad Matt]

I think it is possible to fit 84 cells under a straight downtube with a bbshd. Would take on a slightly pregnant look tho. I get about 30 kms distance on 30q's with 14s5p running on mainly throttle flat out. Geared to 50 kms max.

 

[TorEddy]

I guess you could with a custom battery pack. I do think It's gonna be hard to find a suitable BMS with more then 30amps continuous rating though.
With time, and with a 6p pack with 50amp BMS, I would shunt mod my bbshd to 40-50 amp current draw. That should be fun

 

[Chalo]

Oh boy. A hydraulically shifted Rohloff hub. Because Rohloff hubs have had such a lot of trouble shifting. Wait, um....

My Rohloff hub has leaked oil. My NuVinci hub has leaked oil. I'm kind of glad they don't depend on oil for shifting, frankly. On the other hand, putting new cables in either of these hubs is an ordeal in its own right. So maybe it's a wash.

At least they copied the gearbox layout of the best gearhub in the business. Like the Rohloff, it looks to be very well made.

 

[TorEddy]

Oh boy. A hydraulically shifted Rohloff hub. Because Rohloff hubs have had such a lot of trouble shifting. Wait, um....

I don't know much about Rholoff and if they had any shifting problems, but I do know they just went with electric shifting for their new E-14 igh.
Anyways, regarding shifting technology i guess they all work, both wire, hydraulic and electric. I really don't care, and I never meant to brag about my hydraulic gear shifter.

How do you know Kindernay copied Rohloffs gearbox layout? I happen to know that Kindernays internals are an industrial secret as they have a very clever way of combining the planetary reductions with clutches.

But lets just agree on two things, The Kindernay is very well made, and internal cabling of it's gear shifting hoses sucks

 

[Chalo]

How do you know Kindernay copied Rohloffs gearbox layout? I happen to know that Kindernays internals are an industrial secret as they have a very clever way of combining the planetary reductions with clutches.

It's only because of the 14 speeds and consistent increment ratio across the gearing range. There aren't lots of ways to do that. The details have to be somewhat different, because Rohloff has moving parts where the through axle would go.

 

[Bullfrog]

TorEddy...now that is one nice looking bike/build and I agree with your comment about the build being as much fun as riding.

All this talk about shifting...I don't shift at all. 99% of my riding is off road so that is a factor that you have to take into account. Since an electric motor produces max torque at zero rpms, it works great with a single speed bike. I gear mine so that the top speed is about 18 mph. That has worked out to be the fastest I can go in the tight single track where I ride without having trees jump out in front of me . The Surly Singleator and a White Industries freewheel give me a chain tensioner and 72 engagement points. I run a 28 tooth Lekkie chainring or a Luna 30 tooth Mighty Mini on the front...the small chainring helps me get the gearing I want and it also moves the chain/sprocket interface away from my pants leg...a little bit.

One of my bikes that I use for multiple purposes, I did take a seven speed freewheel and remove/rearrange the gears so that it is now a three speed. One gear for "trials" type riding with a top speed of 10 mph, one gear for single track with a top speed of 18 mph, and one gear for the pavement with a top speed of 28 mph.

I am particularly interested in your battery mounting scheme...I have a Diamondback "Catch" full suspension bike I want to put a BBSHD on and the only thing holding me back is where and how to mount the battery. The 3D printed adapter looks like something I need to try. Just FYI, EM3ev is my "go to" for batteries. They recently added a 14s4p and a 14s5p pack that is pretty small and uses a smart BMS that balances the cells at all charge levels/voltages and you can check on it via bluetooth...if I had a bluetooth but all of my teeth are white :lol: . The 30Q cells are the way to go for higher amperage and the 4p pack is rated to supply 30A continuously...it can actually do a good bit more. EM3ev tends to under rate their batteries...then when you get more than what they said, the customers are happy. Most other battery suppliers over rate their batteries and you are lucky to get anywhere close to their claims.

A nice clean way to get more power out of your BBSHD is a LUNA Ludicrous controller. I can supply up to 60A although I wouldn't recommend going over 50A if you want the nyon/plastic gear to last (based on what I have read). I am very impressed with mine and I haven't gone over 50A...yet. It keeps everything internal and protected and is visually much cleaner looking than an external controller. A Sine wave controller may not be the best idea...IMO you should go "Trapezoidal" or "FOC". Check out this article and if you want to skip to the meat of the article, check out "table 2"...page five, middle of the right hand column: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/40ac/06d3db0b82242038c2dcd20c433d5d1c74f6.pdf.

 

[TOLM]

TorEddy...now that is one nice looking bike/build and I agree with your comment about the build being as much fun as riding.

All this talk about shifting...I don't shift at all. 99% of my riding is off road so that is a factor that you have to take into account. Since an electric motor produces max torque at zero rpms, it works great with a single speed bike. I gear mine so that the top speed is about 18 mph. That has worked out to be the fastest I can go in the tight single track where I ride without having trees jump out in front of me . The Surly Singleator and a White Industries freewheel give me a chain tensioner and 72 engagement points. I run a 28 tooth Lekkie chainring or a Luna 30 tooth Mighty Mini on the front...the small chainring helps me get the gearing I want and it also moves the chain/sprocket interface away from my pants leg...a little bit.

One of my bikes that I use for multiple purposes, I did take a seven speed freewheel and remove/rearrange the gears so that it is now a three speed. One gear for "trials" type riding with a top speed of 10 mph, one gear for single track with a top speed of 18 mph, and one gear for the pavement with a top speed of 28 mph.

I am particularly interested in your battery mounting scheme...I have a Diamondback "Catch" full suspension bike I want to put a BBSHD on and the only thing holding me back is where and how to mount the battery. The 3D printed adapter looks like something I need to try. Just FYI, EM3ev is my "go to" for batteries. They recently added a 14s4p and a 14s5p pack that is pretty small and uses a smart BMS that balances the cells at all charge levels/voltages and you can check on it via bluetooth...if I had a bluetooth but all of my teeth are white :lol: . The 30Q cells are the way to go for higher amperage and the 4p pack is rated to supply 30A continuously...it can actually do a good bit more. EM3ev tends to under rate their batteries...then when you get more than what they said, the customers are happy. Most other battery suppliers over rate their batteries and you are lucky to get anywhere close to their claims.

A nice clean way to get more power out of your BBSHD is a LUNA Ludicrous controller. I can supply up to 60A although I wouldn't recommend going over 50A if you want the nyon/plastic gear to last (based on what I have read). I am very impressed with mine and I haven't gone over 50A...yet. It keeps everything internal and protected and is visually much cleaner looking than an external controller. A Sine wave controller may not be the best idea...IMO you should go "Trapezoidal" or "FOC". Check out this article and if you want to skip to the meat of the article, check out "table 2"...page five, middle of the right hand column: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/40ac/06d3db0b82242038c2dcd20c433d5d1c74f6.pdf.

I tried to buy the ludicrous controller from luna. They would not sell it to me. Explained that bbshd is simply not torquey enough for me but they did not care. Sold my bbshd and bought cyclone insted (way more torque)

 

[Chalo]

I tried to buy the ludicrous controller from luna. They would not sell it to me. Explained that bbshd is simply not torquey enough for me but they did not care. Sold my bbshd and bought cyclone insted (way more torque)

They probably thought you'd burn up your BBSHD and then blame them for it. Cyclone 3kW motors have more torque, and more problems.

Maybe you're a good candidate for a diesel bike.

 

[Bullfrog]

I don't have any personal experience with them but the Lightning Rod (small block and big block) appear to be a well designed set up. I have communicated with the owner a few times and he seems pretty sharp as well as helpful.

If I wanted more power than my BBSHD can deliver, I'd take a serious look at the Lightning Rods: http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/lightning-rods-small-block-mid-drive/

Of course if power is all you want, QS makes some pretty big and powerful motors (as do a few other companies)....and EM3ev is supposed to start offering some of the QS options.

 

[TorEddy]

I don't have any personal experience with them but the Lightning Rod (small block and big block) appear to be a well designed set up. I have communicated with the owner a few times and he seems pretty sharp as well as helpful.

If I wanted more power than my BBSHD can deliver, I'd take a serious look at the Lightning Rods: http://lightning-rods10.mybigcommerce.com/lightning-rods-small-block-mid-drive/

Of course if power is all you want, QS makes some pretty big and powerful motors (as do a few other companies)....and EM3ev is supposed to start offering some of the QS options.

I went the other way, from Lightning Rod GNG to BBSHD, not because of power, but for tidyness and better integrated motor/drivetrain and controller. See my signature for both solutions.

 

[TorEddy]

TorEddy...now that is one nice looking bike/build and I agree with your comment about the build being as much fun as riding.

All this talk about shifting...I don't shift at all. 99% of my riding is off road so that is a factor that you have to take into account. Since an electric motor produces max torque at zero rpms, it works great with a single speed bike. I gear mine so that the top speed is about 18 mph. That has worked out to be the fastest I can go in the tight single track where I ride without having trees jump out in front of me . The Surly Singleator and a White Industries freewheel give me a chain tensioner and 72 engagement points. I run a 28 tooth Lekkie chainring or a Luna 30 tooth Mighty Mini on the front...the small chainring helps me get the gearing I want and it also moves the chain/sprocket interface away from my pants leg...a little bit.

One of my bikes that I use for multiple purposes, I did take a seven speed freewheel and remove/rearrange the gears so that it is now a three speed. One gear for "trials" type riding with a top speed of 10 mph, one gear for single track with a top speed of 18 mph, and one gear for the pavement with a top speed of 28 mph.

I am particularly interested in your battery mounting scheme...I have a Diamondback "Catch" full suspension bike I want to put a BBSHD on and the only thing holding me back is where and how to mount the battery. The 3D printed adapter looks like something I need to try. Just FYI, EM3ev is my "go to" for batteries. They recently added a 14s4p and a 14s5p pack that is pretty small and uses a smart BMS that balances the cells at all charge levels/voltages and you can check on it via bluetooth...if I had a bluetooth but all of my teeth are white :lol: . The 30Q cells are the way to go for higher amperage and the 4p pack is rated to supply 30A continuously...it can actually do a good bit more. EM3ev tends to under rate their batteries...then when you get more than what they said, the customers are happy. Most other battery suppliers over rate their batteries and you are lucky to get anywhere close to their claims.

A nice clean way to get more power out of your BBSHD is a LUNA Ludicrous controller. I can supply up to 60A although I wouldn't recommend going over 50A if you want the nyon/plastic gear to last (based on what I have read). I am very impressed with mine and I haven't gone over 50A...yet. It keeps everything internal and protected and is visually much cleaner looking than an external controller. A Sine wave controller may not be the best idea...IMO you should go "Trapezoidal" or "FOC". Check out this article and if you want to skip to the meat of the article, check out "table 2"...page five, middle of the right hand column: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/40ac/06d3db0b82242038c2dcd20c433d5d1c74f6.pdf.

Thanks Bullfrog!

I drive my bike from home to the forest off-road tracks, and back. I would not need 14 gears, but I'm not far from using the full range. I could easily loose two top and bottom gears, but otherwise I need that gear range.
Three gears would go a long way for not so technical riding!

 

[Bullfrog]

TorEddy...how did the Lightning Rod compare to your BBSHD and what wattage were you pushing thru them?

I agree 100% on the cleanliness of the BBSHD installation plus with the controller internal, it is protected.

Saw another pic you posted that was priceless...looks like you have a future Electrical or Mechanical Engineer on your hands . My helpers are in their mid 30s and don't want to help me anymore:

 

[Bullfrog]

If anyone is concerned about heat, a pic of a temp indicating strip I bought from Wahl is posted at the bottom of this post. I tried to put one directly on top of where the FETs mount in the right hand motor cover and I put one on the left side as well. With the stock 30A controller the 110F did not indicate on the left side but it did on the controller/right side. After installing the Ludicrous controller, the 110F indicated on both sides and the 120F has not indicated on either side. These strips are very accurate.

Bought an aquarium thermometers with intentions of installing it as described here: https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/06/07/installing-a-temperature-sensor-in-the-bbs02-unit/ After disassembling the motor I don't believe they will give very good data unless you are willing to remove a large portion of the potting covering the controller and install the actual sensor somewhere close to the FETs. The temp strips on the outside only have the aluminum housing between the FETs and the strips...and aluminum is a pretty darn good conductor . Don't misunderstand...Karl has posted some very good info but IMO the article I referenced above would not be the best idea for temp monitoring.

Here is the pic...they are about 2 inches long and 1 inch tall:

 

[TorEddy]

Just sold my bike to be able to by this https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=94997

Hope I did the right thing

 

[Bullfrog]

Well IMO they both have advantages and disadvantages....when the popularity of the modular motor increases a little, parts should eventually be more available than the current BBSHD, but for now it is going to be tough to beat the BBSHD for the availability of hop up parts and the price of replacement parts. It is just a supply and demand thing. IMO the modular motor is going to replace the BBSHD in the long run.

The new bike looks like it is well designed but my concern is how well the carbon will hold up if you start riding it really hard off road. As long as you aren't too rough on it the carbon should do OK...the old bike was aluminum wasn't it? Aluminum handles fatigue better than carbon...my personal preference is steel . Yes it is usually heavy but hard to beat when it comes to durability...just look at KTM MX bikes. Of course any material can fail if not designed properly so the design is probably more important than the actual material...can't beat the lightweight of the carbon fiber.

Heck, the new bike and the old bike are both probably in the top ten bikes I have ever seen :lol: . As long as you are happy, nothing else matters. Please let us know how the performance is after you get a chance to ride it some.

 

[TorEddy]

Heck, the new bike and the old bike are both probably in the top ten bikes I have ever seen :lol:

That is so cool to hear

Well I hope the German bulit CF frame will hold up some abuse. Trek amongst others, make CF downhill frames, so done properly, it should be fine. The old bike was aluminium, but I guess when crashing I will always be nervous for a CF frame.

 

[waynebergman]

HI Toreddy, not sure if you have also considered the Bafang M600 with the Dengfu M09 frame. Thread here.... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=94960 . This is a lowered powered bike than the one you are looking at but may be worth considering. By my calcualations the Bafang M600 / Dengfu will be about one half of the cost of the one you are interested in and maybe lighter however the M600 is not a proven platform yet. It does however claim torque and speed sensing for Peddal assist and also a throttle! The M600 / M09 has awesome ground clearance and good weight claims. Only 48 v but at 14.4 ah and 120 NM it shows promise.

The bike you are looking at seems to have a long wheel base spec on the Med sized frame ( the bike you are looking at will have 130mm longer wheel base than the M09). Not sure if the wheel base is an issue for you. Also of interest to me with the M600 is the motor slopes upwards to the head tube giving better ground clearance at the BB area.......... wayne

 

[TorEddy]

I decided to go for the LMX64 instead of the Exess-Bikess Hp-180E.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=96809

 

[waynebergman]

Way to go toreddy, that bike looks like the real deal. Keep us posted on final costs and how it works out.

 

[Tommm]

They forgot to send you the motor.

 

[mnahem]

Hi TorEddy,

Im putting together my first ebike with a bbshd and 52v Jumbo Shark on a Giant Stance 2. My battery wont fit with my bike's suspension, and I want to mount my battery on the underside of the downtube using modified hoseclamps from Kings Cage. I think I see 3 hoseclamps on your build, can you tell me about your mounting process, how its endured, things you might do differently?

Thank you for your time!

 

[TorEddy]

Hi TorEddy,

Im putting together my first ebike with a bbshd and 52v Jumbo Shark on a Giant Stance 2. My battery wont fit with my bike's suspension, and I want to mount my battery on the underside of the downtube using modified hoseclamps from Kings Cage. I think I see 3 hoseclamps on your build, can you tell me about your mounting process, how its endured, things you might do differently?

Thank you for your time!

Hi mnahem
The BBSHD was great fun on 52v.

To be honest, making the battery mount fit on the underside of the downtube, was a lot of work.
Have a look at the middle of this page for pictures of the process: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73264&p=1106366#p1106366
The mount worked fine and was solid. I used velcro straps around the battery and frame just in case, but it never loosened.

Today i would use a newer version of the Hailong battery case, and 3d print a battery adapter plate like you can see in the thread.
I would mount the adapter plate to the frame with hose clamps, and mount the battery to the adapter plate.

 

[AF7JA]

It is interesting, I am going to admit that something in me was hoping that you were working on a hydraulic replacement for the entire chain drive system. Pressure hoses going from the area of the crankarm back to the IGH. I don't know of it being done, but bicycles have been around long enough that I suspect most variants have been tried.

 

[Laissez]

I'm starting off with the most recent picture of my build:

Hello!

You are using some sort of hoseclamp solution here to mount your battery? Do you have anymore pictures or instructions how to do it?

 

[Bullfrog]

Regarding battery mounting....If you have the fittings for a water bottle you can use them or you can use a couple Bottle Bobs from Grin Tech...they allow you to attach just like the water bottle fittings but use hose clamps to hold the Bottle Bob mounts to the frame.

In addition, I use two hose clamps wrapped around the entire battery assembly and the downtube. I have mounted two batteries that way now and it works great. I also cut pieces of inner tube and place them between the hose clamps and the battery so the hose clamps never directly contact the battery case. Most of the time that means three small pieces of inner tube per hose clamp. Just don't over tighten the hose clamps or you can crack a plastic battery case...just good and snug as all they are there for is to support the battery and to keep it from wiggling/moving side to side. I found using a screwdriver handle type driver with a 5/16 socket works good to tighten the hose clamps and keep me from over tightening them .

I used vibration resistant hose clamps from McMaster Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/127/332