Natural Gas Fuel Cells ... what do you all think?

[LI-ghtcycle]

I learned about this the other day, and I'm curious what those of you in the know about this technology can tell me about how good it really is, I find many of these companies to unfortunately exaggerate claims in search of grant money, and don't always deliver the goods.

http://clearedgepower.com/business/products-services/faq

How does the ClearEdge5 work?
The system consists of three core technology components brought together to offer greater efficiency. The Fuel Processor reforms natural gas into ultra-clean hydrogen through a catalytic process. Then through an electro-chemical reaction the ClearEdge5 creates electricity as opposed to burning the natural gas as in traditional power plant production processes. The ClearEdge5 dramatically reduces criteria pollutants and greenhouse gases like CO2. Once the hydrogen is processed through a Fuel Cell Stack, it creates direct current (DC) power and heat. The Power Conditioning Unit converts the DC electricity into alternating current (AC), which ties directly to a facility’s main electrical panel, providing locally produced, steady continuous power for your electricity needs. The heat produced by the fuel cell is transferred to the building through the use of a hydronic system or a heat exchanger, supplying a continuous source of heating for domestic hot water as well as space or radiant heating.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Sounds neat. Where does the Carbon go if not released as CO2? There's a lot of carbon in a hydrocarbon like NG.

Cost per watt can't be all that great compared to a NG powered generator. Fuel cells are clean but not that efficent, and cracking NG for the hydrogen takes a great deal of energy too.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Sounds neat. Where does the Carbon go if not released as CO2? There's a lot of carbon in a hydrocarbon like NG.

Cost per watt can't be all that great compared to a NG powered generator. Fuel cells are clean but not that efficent, and cracking NG for the hydrogen takes a great deal of energy too.

Yeah, that is my thinking, as far as their use here in Oregon, our electricity is cheaper than this system, but in places like California, it works out to be cheaper, but I don't know if that accounts for the cost of producing the NG, shipping/piping it, THEN what it costs to convert it with their chemical process, it might be a better way still if it uses NG in a way that causes less particulates in the air, but then, the carbon has to go somewhere.

I'd like to see more use of NG in general, I think it has potential just as a fuel source to compete with gasoline, especially since the infrastructure is already there.

 

[oldpiper]

Sounds neat. Where does the Carbon go if not released as CO2? There's a lot of carbon in a hydrocarbon like NG.

Cost per watt can't be all that great compared to a NG powered generator. Fuel cells are clean but not that efficent, and cracking NG for the hydrogen takes a great deal of energy too.

Their FAQ, which LI-ghtcycle's link points to, says the carbon is combusted to CO2. If you read through the FAQ, they are throwing around some carefully-selected numbers to maximize their "efficiency gains." They aren't very careful to make sure they're comparing apples to apples, as long as they "prove" their superiority. It's kind of like saying a Hummer has better gas mileage than a Prius, you just have to leave the Prius running in park and it's gas mileage is zero.

Cameron

 

[neptronix]

Snake oil in a box

Just kidding.. there is at least one company that does seem to be delivering:

http://www.bloomenergy.com/customers/

However the issue you will find is that people are feeding natural gas into it... not renewable.. and the way we are getting natural gas these days is environmentally ruinous ( fracking ), poisoning our waters with chemicals that the drillers don't have to disclose...

 

[spinningmagnets]

Any hydrocarbon can be "reformed", which strips the H2 off of the carbons. The smaller the molecule, the lower the temperature that is needed to do it. I never thought about the carbon afterwards, there must be a way to sequester it after you pull off the H2...

A multi-millionaire named Stephen Friend lives on Stuart Island, Washington, near the Canadian border. He had a large diesel generator to power everything (fuel had to be delivered to a very large tank), and wanted to build an independent system that was environmentally friendly. He ended up with a final system that cost $60,000.

He started with a large solar-PV array and a very large 48V battery bank to store the electricity, which was fine for the summer. He found he still had to run a back-up generator on long cloudy winter months, and wondered about a denser way to store electricity that didn't wear out as frequently as large lead/acid batteries.

He had MUCH more electricity in the summer than even his large battery could store, and someone suggested he electrolyze water (split it into H2/O2) with the excess electricity, and store the H2 to feed a commercial refrigerator-sized fuel-cell in the winter.

This was for a very large home, and the system could easily be copied for much less, due to lower PV prices and a much smaller size for the average home. This also significantly lowered the size of the battery pack, with the H2/fuel cell providing the bulk of electricity all year.

http://www.hfcletter.com/issues/XXII_9/stories/978-1.html

 

[dnmun]

multistage hydraulic fracturing of the shale source rock is not ruinous, and it is not ruining the water supply. you guys should learn more about the oil and gas business and about drilling in particular before you go spouting off totally untrue statements.

the reality is not going to be hydrogen or natural gas fuel cells, but internal combustion engines burning compressed natural gas. the transition is already going on, you guys are just missing it. ford just added the westport CNG diesel to the F350 super truck line. shell has just committed to building out the LNG infrastructure. the use of CNG and LNG for the transport fleet is gonna happen very fast because gas is gonna stay expensive.

hydrogen economy and fuel cell pie in the sky is how we got a useless PV technology business on the hook for tons of money. along with ignorant people who know nothing about science or how to determine fact from fiction. a consequence of the dumbning down of our education system.

 

[neptronix]

multistage hydraulic fracturing of the shale source rock is not ruinous, and it is not ruining the water supply. you guys should learn more about the oil and gas business and about drilling in particular before you go spouting off totally untrue statements.

Please explain this further. There are many reports of poisoned wells, towns full of sick people, and plenty of other interesting things going on that started occurring, coincidentally, when hydraulic fracturing started occurring nearby.

You don't have to search too far on google to find this. Nor do you have to look too hard into what the media is saying to find it either.

The fluid they use in this process is conveniently not considered toxic in the clean water drinking act ( there is an exception for natural gas production ), but simultaneously, the natural gas companies do not have to disclose what chemicals they are pumping millions of gallons of into the earth, nor do any governments know what is being pumped in either.

So when people in multiple counties complain about all sorts of bizarre ailments, and can show video of their water catching on fire, i tend to think that what they are saying is correct...

So like, are you telling me that i'm full of crap here and this is all imaginary?

[youtube]qYJj-1jNOxE[/youtube]

[youtube]7Zdx0YrzHVk[/youtube]

[youtube]TEtgvwllNpg[/youtube]

[youtube]1KqFsR4HQpk[/youtube]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing_in_the_United_States

A 2011 study by Congressional Democrats found that, in the process of hydraulic fracturing, "oil and gas companies injected hundreds of millions of gallons of hazardous or carcinogenic chemicals into wells in more than 13 states from 2005 to 2009," according to the New York Times.[15] A 2011 investigation by the New York Times based on various leaked EPA documents found that hydraulic fracturing had resulted in significant increases of radioactive material including radium and carcinogens including benzene in major rivers and watersheds.[16] At one site the amount of benzene discharged into the Allegheny River after treatment was 28 times accepted levels for drinking water.[15]

Please inform me as to what i am missing.

 

[neptronix]

And the saddest thing of all is that this is reducing our drinking water supply further.

If you watch financial news here and there, you'll catch a whiff of drinkable water being the next hot commodity.

http://money.msn.com/exchange-traded-fund/is-water-the-new-gold-mirhaydari.aspx

A surprise for one of the largest water supplies on the East Coast.... Fracking is turning what was once very clean water supplies into something from an industrial wasteland. This is effecting water supplies from Pennsylvania all the way to the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[wineboyrider]

If you put a lighter under your ass is it will flame methane too! Of course the above video is a lot of methane, but in small amounts no problem. Just plug your nose. You have never been to a dairy farm have you?

 

[oldpiper]

Fracking won't necessarily ruin the water supply, but it has to be done right, and companies are just now learning how to do it right, sometimes with the tragic consequences like those shown on those YouTube videos. I just hope not to be pulling drinking water from the area where Company X is still on the steep part of the learning curve (Or worse, where Company X has fallen off the learning curve and doesn't care as long as it's profitable - those guys should have to drink their own water exclusively). I think that overall, things are getting better, I just hope I'm right about this.

BTW, wineboyrider, methane itself is almost odorless. The odor of the natural gas going through all the pipelines is due to a trace amount of a very smelly chemical which is added to the natural gas, specifically for safety reasons, to let you know if there is a potential explosion hazard. And the dairy farm, well, that's also something else coming out, but you'll have to ask the cow why, that's outside my area of expertise.

Cameron

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Wow, that is some seriously messed up stuff!

I would start bottling that crap and sending it to various local and state officials until someone did something about it!

That's not anything anyone should have to deal with, water is so basic, everyone needs to have protection from that kind of stupidity.

However, just like logging, it doesn't mean that every gas and oil company is doing things like that or causing those problems, just like not every timber company is ruining the forest, these things need to be done right, and the criminals prosecuted, (including the officials not holding the companies' responsible feet to the fire).

Lets not forget however, there isn't a blue or red face on this problem, plenty of blame to go around, lets clean up the processes being done to cause this, and fix it.

It's impossible to just say no more drilling because of the few causing problems, just like the BP disaster, to shut down oil rigs on one side of an international boarder does nothing but hurt the people who loose jobs meanwhile a few hundred miles away, another country is drilling away.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Any hydrocarbon can be "reformed", which strips the H2 off of the carbons. The smaller the molecule, the lower the temperature that is needed to do it. I never thought about the carbon afterwards, there must be a way to sequester it after you pull off the H2...

A multi-millionaire named Stephen Friend lives on Stuart Island, Washington, near the Canadian border. He had a large diesel generator to power everything (fuel had to be delivered to a very large tank), and wanted to build an independent system that was environmentally friendly. He ended up with a final system that cost $60,000.

He started with a large solar-PV array and a very large 48V battery bank to store the electricity, which was fine for the summer. He found he still had to run a back-up generator on long cloudy winter months, and wondered about a denser way to store electricity that didn't wear out as frequently as large lead/acid batteries.

He had MUCH more electricity in the summer than even his large battery could store, and someone suggested he electrolyze water (split it into H2/O2) with the excess electricity, and store the H2 to feed a commercial refrigerator-sized fuel-cell in the winter.

This was for a very large home, and the system could easily be copied for much less, due to lower PV prices and a much smaller size for the average home. This also significantly lowered the size of the battery pack, with the H2/fuel cell providing the bulk of electricity all year.

http://www.hfcletter.com/issues/XXII_9/stories/978-1.html

Very interesting stuff! Good to see people who are making it happen, and doing privately! That proves that it can be done with out a artificial incentive, but on it's own merit!

I wonder how efficient the conversion from their excess energy to the fuel cell (some form of rudimentary Hydrogen or form of Propane? I'm not sure which from reading that story) and maybe I missed it, but does that excess energy stored get them through the winter months?

I'm willing to bet that it's not terribly efficient, or they would be replacing their banks of batteries with an even larger fuel cell storage unit (or maybe that is in the future?) if it's anything like the inefficiency of just storing in a large bank of Lead Acid batteries, it's not too cost effective.

Either way, good to see them making it happen, pioneering this kind of work, and hopefully it turns out to help create products we can all eventually afford to have at our homes.

I'm with you John, NG is already here, and why waste excess energy (and expending more pollution) converting it to another form when you can just use it in CNG or LNG form?

Good to see progress by Ford! I have a new respect for that company, starting with the fact that they refused bail-out (corporate welfare) money, I used to be a much bigger fan of GM & their products, mainly I just was a "Chevy" man, but I'm thinking if not a Subaru, my next car if I get one, will be Ford. Hopefully powered by NG or electric when electrics come into their own and start being feasible.

 

[neptronix]

However, just like logging, it doesn't mean that every gas and oil company is doing things like that or causing those problems, just like not every timber company is ruining the forest, these things need to be done right, and the criminals prosecuted, (including the officials not holding the companies' responsible feet to the fire).

The real problem is that they are not being held responsible. There is an exception in the clean water act ( thank you Bush ) that exempts them from pumping whatever drilling fluids into the ground they want. They do not have to tell anyone what fluids they are using, nor does anyone know what they are using!

It's not hard to find reports of people gettting extremely sick, livestock and pets dying, etc. of mysterious illness that just so happened to start after a nearby fracking operation began..

Fracking can be safe and non-pollutive, however these corps are free to do as they like. This is one instance where you desperately need some kind of regulation or law. People are walking away from houses they bought in the northeast regions of America because their water supply is making them sick, and who realistically would want to live there?

 

[dnmun]

just total bullshit. there has not ever been a case where multistage hydraulic fracturing of the horizontals in the shale has caused a leakage of the frac fluids into the water table. everything you imply is all totally artificial and has nothing to do with fracking.

the colorado school of mines is in golden. you can drive there and start reading up on the business in their library just like i did. but you don't even have to go there because you can learn about horizontal drilling and multistage fracking in a number of places. you can overcome ignorance, just by reading and studying how drilling is done and what is involved in fracturing the shale.

 

[bigmoose]

Staying clear of the fracking controversy...

The fuel cell is likely a "solid oxide" fuel cell. You can google for specific info on them. We looked into them a few years ago... now probably like 10 years ago, to replace APU's in large commercial transport aircraft. Neat devices. Like a big stack of ceramic wafers with the rare earth catalysts "painted" on the ceramic. Don't like to be turned on and off. Need to warm up and stay on. They use "rare earths" so we are again an importer of China's elements... They don't like Sulfur in the feedstock. My memory is not so good on this old stuff, but I think Solid Oxide Fuel Cells can work on mixed feed of Hydrogen and CO... IIRC. They package with office buildings as combined cycle plants, using the waste heat to heat/cool. You need to keep in mind the good efficiency of a modern power plant running at near full capacity. Sometimes very hard to beat, unless you are using the waste heat in a process.

Proton exchange fuel cell uses platinum as a catalyst, and is not as robust or cost effective.

 

[Hillhater]

..just total bullshit. there has not ever been a case where multistage hydraulic fracturing of the horizontals in the shale has caused a leakage of the frac fluids into the water table. everything you imply is all totally artificial and has nothing to do with fracking..

since you are so well informed ( no pun intended) ..you will also be aware that "frac ing" is a relatively new process ( compared to conventional drilling etc), and as such no one can possibly know the long term effects on subterranean bio systems, aquifers , geology, etc.
Sure as hell, pumping multi truck loads of chemical shit into the subsoil is bound to change something !
Name one instance when mining or drilling for anything has left the environment in a better condition than before it began ?

I notice you were careful to refer to frac fluid contamination, and not any other contamination..???
... however there are confirmed incidents of water contamination as a result of frac wells..
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fracking-for-natural-gas-pollutes-water-wells

The researchers discovered methane in 51 of the 60 ( drinking water) wells tested—that is not out of the ordinary. A small amount of methane from both deep and biological sources is present in most of the aquifers in this region of Pennsylvania and New York State. By measuring the ratio of radioactive carbon present in the methane contamination, however, the researchers determined that in drinking water wells near active natural gas wells, the methane was old and therefore fossil natural gas from the Marcellus Shale, rather than more freshly produced methane. This marks the first time that drinking water contamination has been definitively linked to fracking.

 

[dnmun]

yes i am well informed. i read at the level of a graduate level petroleum engineer. why are you guys so lazy that you will not overcome your ignorant bias about something you know nothing about and spout off this ignorant hysterical presumption because you saw a utube video.

like i said, david can get in his car and drive to golden to the colorado school mines library and start reading. i spent a year of friday afternoons there photocopying petroleum geology articles for my own personal library, and studying the nature of the equipment, techniques and totally radical technology that has allowed drillers to drill horizontal legs off the main well bore. i know exactly what is involved in the kickout, the mud motors, the tracking and measuring techniques that allow the drilling engineer to steer the well bore along the layer of rock that produces the petroleum and i know exactly how the equipment works, and what those guys do to make it all work.

yes i do know it, and like i said, you could too if you were not so biased and lazy that you won't even study something you want to pretend to understand. you will not get a job in the oil business if you learn things from utube videos, i can guarantee that.

and yes, i make my living investing in these very oil and gas companies you hate so much. i have made more in one day than i made in several years of working as a professional engineer developing and managing the worlds leading integrated circuit manufacturing facility back in the 80s. the very computer you are using is built with integrated circuits that were manufactured using techniques i developed in the 1980s working in the dawn project group for H-P.

so yes, i do know what i am talking about, and i know for a fact that multistage fracturing of horizontal well bores in the source rock has never, i repeat never, resulted in frac fluids being injected into the water table. absolutely none. is that plain enuff?

 

[Hillhater]

Ahh !.. there is that limitation phrase again..

"fracturing of horizontal well bores in the source rock has never, i repeat never, resulted in frac fluids being injected into the water table."..

which is still a bold statement to make considering the number of wells drilled, the limited amount of testing , and the restricted release of any results.
..but can you say that drilling frac wells has never resulted in contaminated drinking water wells. ??

 

[neptronix]

and yes, i make my living investing in these very oil and gas companies you hate so much.

I was going to ask if you worked for or were otherwise invested in the natural gas and oil companies.

How does their kool-aid taste, sir?

 

[wineboyrider]

Oh. Oh dnmun is going to use all caps on ya.

 

[Hillhater]

....In October 2010, traces of BTEX chemicals were found at an Arrow Energy fracking
operation in Queensland. Arrow Energy confirmed that benzene, toluene,
ethylbenzene and xylene had been found in well water associated with its coal-seam
gas operation at Moranbah, west of Mackay.
An underground coal gasification project, a joint venture between Origin and the
multinational ConocoPhillips, near Kingaroy Queensland, was also temporarily shut
down when benzene and toluene were detected.
Queensland has banned the use of BTEX chemicals in fracking fluids. The NSW
Government recently announced it would examine banning the use of BTEX
chemicals in ‘situations which may pose risk to groundwater’.

http://ntn.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/NTN-Fracking-Briefing-Paper-2011.pdf

...i make my living investing in these very oil and gas companies you hate so much.

Just to be clear, i dont hate these companies, indeed i recognise the need for their products for my personal convenience and to keep the world societies functioning currently.
What i do hate though, is the arrogance of their management and disregard for the rights and well being of other citizens, and the blatent collusion of authorities and governments who facilitate these Companies for their own financial and political benefit, whilst turning a blind eye to obvious environmental risks.