Honda electric car gets 118 mpg, but costs add up

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Honda electric car gets 118 mpg, but costs add up
By TOM KRISHER and JONATHAN FAHEY, AP Business Writers – 2 hrs 2 mins ago

DETROIT – At 118 miles per gallon, the Honda Fit electric vehicle is the most fuel-efficient in the United States. But getting that mileage isn't cheap — and it isn't always good for the environment.

Honda announced the eye-popping figure Wednesday, making the small, four-door hatchback more efficient than electric rivals like the Ford Focus, Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV. It goes on the market this summer in Oregon and California.

The electric Fit has an estimated price tag nearly twice as high as the gasoline-powered version. It would take 11 years before a driver makes up the difference and begins saving on fuel.

With gas prices falling, the high sticker price for electric vehicles is becoming more of a barrier for American buyers, even though the vehicles are far more efficient than their gas-powered counterparts. That's hurting sales of electrics.

Through May, carmakers sold just over 10,000 electric vehicles, less than 0.2 percent of U.S. car and truck sales.

That's because the numbers don't add up for the average consumer.

• The electric Fit needs 28.6 kilowatt hours of electricity to go 100 miles. At the national average price of 11.6 cents per kilowatt hour, that costs $3.30.

A gas-powered automatic-transmission Fit, which gets 31 miles per gallon, needs to burn 3.2 gallons to travel 100 miles. At the national average price of $3.57 per gallon of gasoline, that's $11.52.

• People drive an average of almost 13,500 miles a year, so a typical driver would spend $445 on electricity for an electric Fit over a year, and $1,552 on gasoline for a regular Fit.

• Honda has valued the price of an electric Fit at $29,125 after a $7,500 federal tax credit. That's $12,210 more than the gas-powered Fit — a savings of $1,107 per year to make up the difference between the electric and the gas-powered version.

Customers don't want to spend the extra money up front and wait for years for payback, said Geoff Pohanka, who runs 13 auto dealerships in

Virginia and Maryland, including three that sell the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt electric cars.

"People are smart. They're looking for the deal," he said. "Is somebody going to fork out $15,000 more for something that gets them less range than their car now? It's not happening."

At first, Honda will only be leasing Fit EVs in Oregon and California, for $389 per month. The subcompact seats up to five people and can be recharged in three hours with a 240-volt charging station. A fully charged Fit EV can go 82 miles, meaning a daily commute could cost nothing for gasoline.

And leases can make sense for consumers. Carmakers can lower rates and subsidize deals in order to make a car — especially one with new, expensive technology — more attractive to buyers.

Jesse Toprak, vice president of market intelligence for the car buying site TrueCar.com, said he tested an electric Chevrolet Volt, driving it less than 35 miles a day from his Los Angeles-area home to work and back. The cost of leasing it — $369 a month — is comparable to the $300 he would spend on gas.

"In a lot of these cases, I'm surprised that people are not lining up to get these things," he said.

The comparison between gas and electric cars also can vary with geography, largely because energy prices vary wildly across the country.

In Oregon, where gasoline is 18 percent more expensive than the national average and electricity is 16 percent lower, an electric Fit will save $121 per month in fuel. In Connecticut, which has the highest power prices in the country, the monthly savings are just $83.

The fuel used to generate electric power and the cost of gasoline also vary by region _and that affects how environmentally friendly an electric car purchase is.

In Midwestern states that rely heavily on coal, driving an electric car produces 18 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than driving a typical gasoline-powered car, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Surprisingly, driving an electric car there produces 50 percent more greenhouse gases than driving a 50 mpg electric hybrid.

In the Northeast and Northwest, where a bigger portion of the power is produced with nuclear reactors, hydroelectric dams, natural gas-fired power plants and wind farms, an electric car will produce 76 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than a typical gasoline-powered car and 56 percent fewer emissions than a hybrid.

No matter what the energy costs, Honda expects to trumpet the Fit EV's 118 mpg figure, even though it will lease only 1,100 of the cars in its first two years on the market.

Honda predicts that the initial customers for the Fit EV will won't be focusing on a cost-benefit analysis. Instead, they'll want to make a statement about cutting greenhouse gases and reducing dependence on foreign oil, said Robert Langford, Honda's manager of plug-in electric vehicle sales.

Like the rest of the auto industry, Honda isn't sure when or if electric vehicles will ever replace those that run on gas, he said. The company keeps constant watch on sales of electric cars already on the market like the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt.

"That's constantly on our mind right now and on our radar screen," said Langford.

Chevrolet doesn't actively market the Volt's 94 mpg figure, because it's too confusing to explain to consumers that the car can drive that distance while running on electricity. The Volt, unlike other electrics, has a small gas engine on board to generate power for the car after the battery is depleted.

What resonates more with consumers is that the average Volt driver goes 900 miles before buying gasoline, said Cristi Landry, the car's marketing director.

She also isn't sure when electric cars will go beyond the environmentally conscious buyer and into the rest of America's driveways.

Electric vehicles, Toprak said, won't sell en masse until customers know they will ultimately save enough to take a risk on new technology.

"You're not buying it to save the trees," Toprak said. "You're buying it to save money for yourself."
 
fta: "People are smart. They're looking for the deal,"

People are stupid. They are looking for money


"You must choose between making money and making sense. The two are mutually exclusive."
-Buck Fuller

GROSS UNIVERSE CASH HEIST
http://www.project-humanity-earth.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Grunch_of_Giants_-_Richard_Buckminster_Fuller.96134704.pdf

By the time of the 1929 Crash, Morgan was controlling the boards of directors of General Electric, General Motors, U.S. Steel, the big three copper companies, the telephone and telegraph companies, all the "Edison Electric" public utilities, etc.; and many of the U.S. banks.
At the outset, Morgan's partners gave Harvard University (bush and obama and romney went to haaarrvard) its law and business schools, from whose highly educated, specialized graduates they recruited the army of lawyers and financial experts to service their Wall Street offices. This legal army handled the behind-the-scenes complex contractings and financial paperwork implementing Morgan's and his associates' enterprises. There being no laws against so doing prior to 1929, he used general bank deposits to underwrite his enterprises.

In the early 1920s, the Morgan-dominated banking system pushed farm machinery sales to farmers on timepayment plans secured to the banks by first mortgages on the farm properties as well as on the machinery. As I explained in Critical Path, the bad hog market of 1926 hit farmers financially, causing many to be unable to make their monthly payments on their time-purchased farm machinery. The country banks not only replevined the machinery but foreclosed on the farms, which were mortgaged to guarantee the time payments—the country banks found the farms unsalable, as there were no other U.S.A. individuals eager to go into farming. ("How You Gonna Keep Em Down on the Farm After They've Seen Paree?" —World War I song.) Then the bigger city banks, which had loaned the small banks money based on the "soundness of physical land and machine collateral," foreclosed on the small country banks. The larger city banks also found their foreclosure properties unsalable. No cash funds were available to accommodate their depositors' withdrawals. "Runs" on banks multiplied. There came a crisis moment when over
five thousand banks closed in one day. Finally the big Chicago banks closed and only the big New York banks remained open. Then it was discovered that they, too, having loaned their deposits for industrial ventures, now lacked cash monies with which to refund their depositors
and the New Deal and FDR declared the "Bank Moratorium," thereby avoiding admitting the bankruptcy of the U.S. banking system and with it THE END of U.S.A. capitalism. The U.S. Congress, inquiring exhaustively into the matter, found that those New York banks' brokerage departments had been using deposits for underwriting venture industries. Because this was at the heart of the failure, the Glass-Steagel Banking Act of 1933 was enacted "permanently"—IT WAS HOPED—separating venture brokerage-underwriting from the New Deal government's guaranteed bank deposits of the people.
-1984 Fuller

Glass steag repealed 1999
Global financial crisis -now
 
Why I gave up the idea of converting a car to electric, and got into electric bikes. Couldn't afford enough range on a car, could on a bike.
 
Very few people realize the repeal of Glass-Steagel in 1999 is so important.

Recently, Chase Bank had a multi-billion dollar loss on a risky trading venture (I guess they hadn't learned their lesson after the mess in 2008). It was immediately announced that they had still turned a profit for the quarter, so it was no big deal, right?

What that incident revealed is why banks are still not loaning money on small business loans and houses. Since the repeal of Glass-Steagel, the money is no longer separate between investment banks (Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, etc) and the consumer service banks (Bank of America, Wells Fargo, etc), sooooo...why would the big bankers tie up their available cash in helping the US economy, when they are clearly still making large and risky investments elsewhere?

The most important thing to understand about the big international bankers is this: they can structure investments so that they make huge profits whether the stock market is going up or down. The best thing for US industry is slow and stable growth that matches the growth of the population, but that is the WORST thing for the big banker profits. They want big turmoil and big profits.
 
Let's stay on topic.

Nugget from story:

"At first, Honda will only be leasing Fit EVs in Oregon and California, for $389 per month. The subcompact seats up to five people and can be recharged in three hours with a 240-volt charging station. A fully charged Fit EV can go 82 miles, meaning a daily commute could cost nothing for gasoline.

And leases can make sense for consumers. Carmakers can lower rates and subsidize deals in order to make a car — especially one with new, expensive technology — more attractive to buyers."



Why not lease, when a vehicle has a pack that depreciates?
 
Electric vehicles, Toprak said, won't sell en masse until customers know they will ultimately save enough to take a risk on new technology.

"You're not buying it to save the trees," Toprak said. "You're buying it to save money for yourself."

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but if you wanted to be really smart an electric bike uses 14 times less electricity to run vs the Honda fit. Won't do everything a car will do, but many trips can be done on the bike.

from the figures there 28600 watt hours to go 100 miles
my bike 2000 watt hours or less to go 100 miles
 
It's admirable that they're trying to compete on price with ICE cars, but I'm not sure they'll succeed.

EV's must have better selling points that could be exploited.

I doubt anyone bought a Toyota Pious thinking it was cheap. They aren't even eco-friendly according to many!
 
You're not going to get most Americans to commute on bikes.

What concerns buyers (besides range) is the availability of cheap fuel. As fuel prices rise, the EV makes more sense - so have the choice make sense even when fuel gets cheap.

Dealers can finance the vehicles, so how about discounts on the loan based on the price of crude?... Crude goes down, so does your monthly payment, or maybe the interest percentage.
 
For all my talk
I'm still waiting for a secondhand big pack Model S Sport
The NCA packs stabilize at 70-80% of initial capacity (but then should last for a very long time) which will mean quite a few unhappy uninformed customers
 
Honda Fit EV.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fit-ev/?from=fitev.honda.com
http://www.hondanews.com/channels/corporate-headlines/releases/2013-honda-fit-ev-rated-by-the-epa-at-118-mpge-highest-fuel-efficiency-rating-ever-1

ydzF8.png


Good news:

- 20 kWh of lithium
- 92 kW/188 ft-lb. motor shared with the FCX Clarity
- 132/105/118 MPGe rating
- Range on par with that of the Leaf: In Honda's carefully lawyer-couched language, the range is "123 city/95 highway mile range (unadjusted); 76 combined mile range (adjusted)"
- Honda claims a 3 hour charge time on a 240V charger, which would imply a 6.6 kW charger
- Not complete vaporware

Bad news:

- Lease only. No purchase option up front or at the end of the lease term, as per the OP's article
- Pricey lease terms: $389/mo x 3 yrs, much more expensive than even the Leaf SL, let alone the base Leaf or iMiEV
- Only one color available (boohoo), the pictured blue
- Rolling out only in "select California and Oregon markets" in summer 2012, with "an East Coast rollout in 2013"

My impression is that this car is merely meant to appease CARB, nothing more.
.
 
Thing is, cars don't make economic sense no matter which way you look at it. Any vehicle will cost you money from the day you buy it. It's just that some will do it faster than others. If I drove more than 20,000 km a year, I would go electric as quick as I could since it becomes cheaper than gas by about year 7 or 8. But I don't. My wife and I do the environmentally friendly thing where we ride bikes (and me, not even an e-bike) to work. We walk to the shops and if we need to go on a longer trip we ride the ICE Blackbird. If we need to go on a really long trip (>700 km) or we need to carry a bunch of crap, we hire a car. Net result is more cash to spend on expensive rent associated with living close to stuff.

But by and large, we just don't need a car. And this gets at the heart of people's misguided obsession with the high cost of an electric car. All cars are expensive, and will continue to cost you a bomb no matter which way you look at it.

However, I value my marriage, and when Mrs Wife says she'd rather drive to a destination than don the rain gear, I guess I should listen. Hence I bought the CRX to convert down the track when money permits. Not a $18,000 new car, or a $50,000 new electric car, but a $2500 1989 CRX. Which will still get good fuel economy when it's running, despite spending much of it's life sitting in the carport. I will budget $35,000 for conversion when my employment permits...
 
Punx0r said:
I doubt anyone bought a Toyota Pious thinking it was cheap. They aren't even eco-friendly according to many!

Like who? Hummer salesmen who've been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh? :lol:

Funny that nobody does an economics breakdown on a regular gas car.
Hm, no criticism in the press over buying a SUV versus getting an econobox? that's funny. But a new alt-fuel vehicle comes out and it should come under fire?

Don't pay attention to the EV naysayers. They'll naysay just for he sake of doing so ( or maybe the oil companies are cutting them a check! )

Anyway, this car is a CARB ZEV compliance car, that's why they only want to lease 1,100 of them.
Gee.. ya make something with better range than the Leaf at a similar price... whatever you do, don't sell them Honda, you might make money!
 
TylerDurden said:
Honda electric car gets 118 mpg, but costs add up
By TOM KRISHER and JONATHAN FAHEY, AP Business Writers – 2 hrs 2 mins ago

DETROIT – At 118 miles per gallon, the Honda Fit electric vehicle is the most fuel-efficient in the United States. But getting that mileage isn't cheap — and it isn't always good for the environment.

Honda announced the eye-popping figure Wednesday, making the small, four-door hatchback more efficient than electric rivals like the Ford Focus, Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV. It goes on the market this summer in Oregon and California.

The electric Fit has an estimated price tag nearly twice as high as the gasoline-powered version. It would take 11 years before a driver makes up the difference and begins saving on fuel.

With gas prices falling, the high sticker price for electric vehicles is becoming more of a barrier for American buyers, even though the vehicles are far more efficient than their gas-powered counterparts. That's hurting sales of electrics.

Through May, carmakers sold just over 10,000 electric vehicles, less than 0.2 percent of U.S. car and truck sales.

That's because the numbers don't add up for the average consumer.

• The electric Fit needs 28.6 kilowatt hours of electricity to go 100 miles. At the national average price of 11.6 cents per kilowatt hour, that costs $3.30.

A gas-powered automatic-transmission Fit, which gets 31 miles per gallon, needs to burn 3.2 gallons to travel 100 miles. At the national average price of $3.57 per gallon of gasoline, that's $11.52.

• People drive an average of almost 13,500 miles a year, so a typical driver would spend $445 on electricity for an electric Fit over a year, and $1,552 on gasoline for a regular Fit.

• Honda has valued the price of an electric Fit at $29,125 after a $7,500 federal tax credit. That's $12,210 more than the gas-powered Fit — a savings of $1,107 per year to make up the difference between the electric and the gas-powered version.

Customers don't want to spend the extra money up front and wait for years for payback, said Geoff Pohanka, who runs 13 auto dealerships in

Virginia and Maryland, including three that sell the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt electric cars.

"People are smart. They're looking for the deal," he said. "Is somebody going to fork out $15,000 more for something that gets them less range than their car now? It's not happening."

At first, Honda will only be leasing Fit EVs in Oregon and California, for $389 per month. The subcompact seats up to five people and can be recharged in three hours with a 240-volt charging station. A fully charged Fit EV can go 82 miles, meaning a daily commute could cost nothing for gasoline.

And leases can make sense for consumers. Carmakers can lower rates and subsidize deals in order to make a car — especially one with new, expensive technology — more attractive to buyers.

Jesse Toprak, vice president of market intelligence for the car buying site TrueCar.com, said he tested an electric Chevrolet Volt, driving it less than 35 miles a day from his Los Angeles-area home to work and back. The cost of leasing it — $369 a month — is comparable to the $300 he would spend on gas.

"In a lot of these cases, I'm surprised that people are not lining up to get these things," he said.

The comparison between gas and electric cars also can vary with geography, largely because energy prices vary wildly across the country.

In Oregon, where gasoline is 18 percent more expensive than the national average and electricity is 16 percent lower, an electric Fit will save $121 per month in fuel. In Connecticut, which has the highest power prices in the country, the monthly savings are just $83.

The fuel used to generate electric power and the cost of gasoline also vary by region _and that affects how environmentally friendly an electric car purchase is.

In Midwestern states that rely heavily on coal, driving an electric car produces 18 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than driving a typical gasoline-powered car, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists. Surprisingly, driving an electric car there produces 50 percent more greenhouse gases than driving a 50 mpg electric hybrid.

In the Northeast and Northwest, where a bigger portion of the power is produced with nuclear reactors, hydroelectric dams, natural gas-fired power plants and wind farms, an electric car will produce 76 percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions than a typical gasoline-powered car and 56 percent fewer emissions than a hybrid.

No matter what the energy costs, Honda expects to trumpet the Fit EV's 118 mpg figure, even though it will lease only 1,100 of the cars in its first two years on the market.

Honda predicts that the initial customers for the Fit EV will won't be focusing on a cost-benefit analysis. Instead, they'll want to make a statement about cutting greenhouse gases and reducing dependence on foreign oil, said Robert Langford, Honda's manager of plug-in electric vehicle sales.

Like the rest of the auto industry, Honda isn't sure when or if electric vehicles will ever replace those that run on gas, he said. The company keeps constant watch on sales of electric cars already on the market like the Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Volt.

"That's constantly on our mind right now and on our radar screen," said Langford.

Chevrolet doesn't actively market the Volt's 94 mpg figure, because it's too confusing to explain to consumers that the car can drive that distance while running on electricity. The Volt, unlike other electrics, has a small gas engine on board to generate power for the car after the battery is depleted.

What resonates more with consumers is that the average Volt driver goes 900 miles before buying gasoline, said Cristi Landry, the car's marketing director.

She also isn't sure when electric cars will go beyond the environmentally conscious buyer and into the rest of America's driveways.

Electric vehicles, Toprak said, won't sell en masse until customers know they will ultimately save enough to take a risk on new technology.

"You're not buying it to save the trees," Toprak said. "You're buying it to save money for yourself."

Just to comment for a moment:
Things to keep in mind:
1- An electric vehicle performs significantly better in start-stop environments (when they have regenerative breaking) than a gasoline powered vehicle.
But the numbers are way off for most people, who never drive straights, but have to go from one stop light to the next. In such cases getting 22 actual MPG is quite a feat.
2- The car market kind of is getting saturated in a sense that before some people would buy only new cars. Now everyone watches their wallet, and second hand cars that are offered in stores with low mileage are increased in price dramatically. I know of a time here in Miami, where $500 could get you a perfectly healthy car. Nowadays if you get a perfectly healthy car with 100K miles on it, you cash out $3000 or more! Anything with low mileage is more in the likes of $8000-$9000, and for instance a Toyota Yaris gets sold for $10.000 with ~75k miles on it, while new it costs $14k. The numbers just don't add up anymore...
The sweet spot still is to either get a $3,5k car with minor issues (especially if it's for small travel), or get a new Nissan Versa for 11k for regular long distance travel) the rest is not economically viable.
In their search for better gas prices, the Toyota Yaris was the number one best sold car in S FLorida for a long time, then Nissan Versa (because it's gas mileage is not as good, but it looks way better), and now it's slowly becoming the Hyundai Accent (hyundai's affordable and more economic alternative to the Honda Accord/Civic), because it has a better engine, and overall better hardware for the money. Either way, a consumer already knows what's best for his pocket, does the research (and no longer get the V8 Chevy gas guzzlers from 10 years ago). EV's only make sense in electric motorcycles, and scooters, where the bike costs less than the gas version. But even then, some people are hesitant. Changing a battery from an electric bike often is in the $700 range; depending on which kind of battery and bike, and how it's being used, takes about 2-6 years to get changed. For that price, gasoline can stay all year round at $4/gal and you'd still be better off with a regular bike. But if you're looking for a scooter to ride, drive it 4-5 years and sell it then an electric bike makes most sense!

3- Another thing many people don't take into account when calculating the overall electricity price of an electric vehicle, is, they calculate how much electricity the motor uses, and how much $ =1kWh; and deduct from that their electricity price.
That formula is largely incorrect.
First off, one should include the efficiency of the charger. Digital chargers are operating in efficiency higher than 80%. Analog (or solid state) chargers, based on older and heavier transformers, are usually operating below 75% efficiency. That means you'll have to add at least 20% on your electric bill.
Another thing is leaving the charger trickle charging, or even just connected to the AC, not charging anything costs money too. An estimation shows, if you connect your charger 24/7 to the AC, you'll pay about $75 just on electricity a year.

And lastly, even though the average mileage per year a car does in US is stated to be 13k, many people (eg like me) have a very small home-work-home travel distance. In such cases, many (and I believe the majority of people) are well below the 8000miles per year (there was a year I only did 3k miles per year, last year I did 6k miles, because we have 2 cars, this year I'll probably be averaging closer to 7k miles per year). The average miles per year rating includes many long distance travelers that go out of state frequently. They raise the bar significantly for the majority of people. if 100 people drive less than 5000miles a year, and 10 individuals travel 20k miles a year, and a single individual actually does 55k miles a year (because of working on the road, like taxi drivers, delivery trucks etc....), the average will be 6,8k miles, even though the majority of people (91%) find themselves under that value!
So for the majority of people those numbers in gas savings won't be true for them; it'll actually be worse.

And indeed, the question should be asked if mining that lithium by a variety of machines using gasoline, and fabricating those batteries in smoking hot factories that use lots of electricity for electrolyze, that will have to be trashed anyway in a good 4 years for bikes, and 10 years for cars, will be green or not.?
 
Dude, the most environmentally responsible thing you can do is to stop spending money.

But that isn't real popular.
 
kind of reminds me of those fuel cells!
It takes an enormous amount of energy to convert water into hydrogen and oxide (or dioxide), and the energy gained is only small in comparison when going back to water.
One benefit though, is that a fuel vehicle only needs hydrogen, while the dioxide can easily be used in medical applications or other.
So the byproduct (dioxide) of the conversion process can still be used.
But if it's sole role was to create hydrogen, it would have been a waste of energy.

In many european plants, nucleair powerplants actually offer the electricity cheaper when they're not operating in peak hours. During those hours, a nuclear powerplant can get rid of it's excessive energy (as they can not be turned off at night).
In such environments it would make sense to harvest the energy, and store it into fuelcells; so basically only for those reasons does it make sense to create fuelcells. If it wasn't for those reasons and the byproducts, cars running on hydrogen would not exist.
 
neptronix said:
Punx0r said:
I doubt anyone bought a Toyota Pious thinking it was cheap. They aren't even eco-friendly according to many!

Like who? Hummer salesmen who've been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh? :lol:

I haven't made a serious study of it, but the arguments bandied about are believable. It's a reasonably-sized, reasonably heavy car with a bunch of extra electronics and a load of nickel. It's got to be more polluting/energy intensive to produce than your average car. It's also not that good on fuel when compared to some purely ICE cars.

To me it always seemed like a half-baked EV. I understand the restrictions on large-format nimh cells put a huge limitation on any/most EV's.
 
flathill said:
fta: "People are smart. They're looking for the deal,"

People are stupid. They are looking for money


"You must choose between making money and making sense. The two are mutually exclusive."
-Buck Fuller

GROSS UNIVERSE CASH HEIST
http://www.project-humanity-earth.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Grunch_of_Giants_-_Richard_Buckminster_Fuller.96134704.pdf

By the time of the 1929 Crash, Morgan was controlling the boards of directors of General Electric, General Motors, U.S. Steel, the big three copper companies, the telephone and telegraph companies, all the "Edison Electric" public utilities, etc.; and many of the U.S. banks.
At the outset, Morgan's partners gave Harvard University (bush and obama and romney went to haaarrvard) its law and business schools, from whose highly educated, specialized graduates they recruited the army of lawyers and financial experts to service their Wall Street offices. This legal army handled the behind-the-scenes complex contractings and financial paperwork implementing Morgan's and his associates' enterprises. There being no laws against so doing prior to 1929, he used general bank deposits to underwrite his enterprises.

In the early 1920s, the Morgan-dominated banking system pushed farm machinery sales to farmers on timepayment plans secured to the banks by first mortgages on the farm properties as well as on the machinery. As I explained in Critical Path, the bad hog market of 1926 hit farmers financially, causing many to be unable to make their monthly payments on their time-purchased farm machinery. The country banks not only replevined the machinery but foreclosed on the farms, which were mortgaged to guarantee the time payments—the country banks found the farms unsalable, as there were no other U.S.A. individuals eager to go into farming. ("How You Gonna Keep Em Down on the Farm After They've Seen Paree?" —World War I song.) Then the bigger city banks, which had loaned the small banks money based on the "soundness of physical land and machine collateral," foreclosed on the small country banks. The larger city banks also found their foreclosure properties unsalable. No cash funds were available to accommodate their depositors' withdrawals. "Runs" on banks multiplied. There came a crisis moment when over
five thousand banks closed in one day. Finally the big Chicago banks closed and only the big New York banks remained open. Then it was discovered that they, too, having loaned their deposits for industrial ventures, now lacked cash monies with which to refund their depositors
and the New Deal and FDR declared the "Bank Moratorium," thereby avoiding admitting the bankruptcy of the U.S. banking system and with it THE END of U.S.A. capitalism. The U.S. Congress, inquiring exhaustively into the matter, found that those New York banks' brokerage departments had been using deposits for underwriting venture industries. Because this was at the heart of the failure, the Glass-Steagel Banking Act of 1933 was enacted "permanently"—IT WAS HOPED—separating venture brokerage-underwriting from the New Deal government's guaranteed bank deposits of the people.
-1984 Fuller

Glass steag repealed 1999
Global financial crisis -now
(The problem with those who point to Glass-Steagall is not that they’re radical. It’s that they’re not nearly radical enough. They think the system as is, shot through with moral hazard at every level, and presided over by a market-defying central bank, is of its nature stable and without fault; we just need a few regulations.)

Because Glass-Steagall was passed during the Depression, it is assumed that it was addressing a pressing need of the time. In fact, the lack of government-enforced division between commercial and investment banking had precisely zero to do with bank problems during the Great Depression. The 9,000 bank failures during the early 1930s had far more to do with the damage done by government regulation — namely, the unit-banking laws that made it difficult for banks to diversify their portfolios (by limiting them to a single office and making branching illegal) — than with a lack of regulation. These were small banks, not the behemoths for which Glass-Steagall would have been relevant. Canada had none of these stifling regulations, and had zero bank failures. (Incidentally, Canada also avoided all the post-Civil War bank panics that struck the U.S., even though Canada did not have a central bank until 1934 — yet again, reality refuses to conform to the where-would-we-be-without-our-wise-overlords comic-book version of events.)
END THE FEDERAL RESERVE
 
Punx0r said:
neptronix said:
Punx0r said:
I doubt anyone bought a Toyota Pious thinking it was cheap. They aren't even eco-friendly according to many!
Like who? Hummer salesmen who've been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh? :lol:
I haven't made a serious study of it, but the arguments bandied about are believable. It's a reasonably-sized, reasonably heavy car with a bunch of extra electronics and a load of nickel. It's got to be more polluting/energy intensive to produce than your average car. It's also not that good on fuel when compared to some purely ICE cars.

1) Show me a non-hybrid ICE car of comparable size, features, and price that gets within 20% in combined cycle MPG to the Prius (adjusting for the increased expense of diesel with respect to regular unleaded in the US). Also, what's your average car? Looked up how much the average car weighs lately? The Prius is a lightweight in the grand scheme.

2) Toyota recycles all Prius battery packs, and indeed pays a $200 bounty to recover them.

3) Intuition is a fickle beast. Rely on life cycle energy assessments instead (and I'm not talking about CNW's crap, where they assume a 300,000 mile lifetime for a Hummer H2 and only 100,000 miles for the Prius). Here's some reading, written by yours truly, regarding said life cycle energy assessments and the assumptions that underlie such assessments: Do electric cars make environmental sense?
 
The recent TDIs are sorta close, the older ones are sometimes better, but they weigh much less than the current (due to fewer amenities, no catalytics, etc.) .

I won't buy a new car because I can't fix one. I rationalize my keeping old diesels as less impact through less fuel and less new manufacturing.

I will buy LED bulbs now, knowing they will be surpassed in lumens/$ next year; but if nobody buys them now, manufacturers have less incentive to push the tech. At least I won't have to buy bulbs again, in this life.

Leasing has always been a mug's game in my book, but if it gets more people outta their guzzlers, I'm open to hearing about it.
 
TylerDurden said:
I will buy LED bulbs now, knowing they will be surpassed in lumens/$ next year; but if nobody buys them now, manufacturers have less incentive to push the tech. At least I won't have to buy bulbs again, in this life.

Hey you retarded-frock stay on topic :D Just messing

The reason the honda fit is so efficient is the bad ass coaxial motor from the clarity
It uses reluctance torque like the prius motors to its advantage
Page 18 of this document has a cutaway of the motor if your interested
http://www.nouspod.com/content/honda/fcx-press-kit.pdf
 
flathill said:
The reason the honda fit is so efficient is the bad ass coaxial motor from the clarity
It uses reluctance torque like the prius motors to its advantage
Page 18 of this document has a cutaway of the motor if your interested
http://www.nouspod.com/content/honda/fcx-press-kit.pdf
Very cool. Here it is, as promised:

znwig4.jpg


I take back what I said earlier regarding the $389/mo lease, btw, as some quick arithmetic ($14k total payments per honda.com) shows that there's no money down up front. The $289/mo Leaf lease has a $3k initial payment up front. Therefore over 3 years the Leaf is only $600 cheaper.
 
Toshi said:
1) Show me a non-hybrid ICE car of comparable size, features, and price that gets within 20% in combined cycle MPG to the Prius (adjusting for the increased expense of diesel with respect to regular unleaded in the US).

2) Toyota recycles all Prius battery packs, and indeed pays a $200 bounty to recover them.

3) Intuition is a fickle beast. Rely on life cycle energy assessments instead (and I'm not talking about CNW's crap, where they assume a 300,000 mile lifetime for a Hummer H2 and only 100,000 miles for the Prius). Here's some reading, written by yours truly, regarding said life cycle energy assessments and the assumptions that underlie such assessments: Do electric cars make environmental sense?

Hi, it appears I've stumbled into your specialist area of knowledge ;) But in answer to your questions:

1) I'm not sure what the price of fuel has to do with efficiency? Here (UK) the cost difference between diesel and unleaded is negligible. A quick internet search suggests the gen 1 prius is 1250kg and does 57mpg combined, gen 2 is 1300kg and does 65mpg. Good, but not exactly unrivaled by pure ICE cars.

Of course, gentle city driving favours the Prius. An extreme example, a Motoring TV program raced a Prius around a track against a heavier, less aerodynamic, much more powerful BMW. The Prius used much more fuel.

2) An excellent initiative :) I guess a few escape though, as there are plenty for sale on ebay.

3) Sorry, I don't know what CNW is, I've never seen a Hummer dealership and the only time I've heard of Rush Limbaugh is on that episode of Family Guy.

I drive a 15 year old car, running on LPG with 180,000 miles on the clock. I've saved several cars from the scrapyard so they gave several years more service.

1) Reduce, 2) Reuse, 3) Recycle
 
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