NCR18650PD Anybody heard of this cell yet and maybe a source

schwibsi

schwibsi

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Hello everyone,

does anybody know of these Panasonic cells? Energy density is supposed to be excellent.
At 16s 8p with these I wouldn't need each cell to put out a lot of amps, even 1C contintuous would do for my purposes.

Maybe you also know of a good source, you'd like to share openly or via pm?
I'm very interested to hear, what you guys think.

Thanks
 
budgetlightforum.com/node/13096

If you're into 18650's, looks like the best suited towards a high energy density ebike pack that Ive ever seen.

NCA chemistry is sick too.
 
Well, I'm not particularly into any cell shape or technology.
I just need a battery about 15- 20Ah that can handle a continuous discharge of 20A and 40A peak. With the size of the pack, it wouldn't be stressed too much. 1C continuous is enough for me. Especially if the energy density is so high and the pack therefore rather light. With the same mass you can get a lot more Ah and therefore less stress on the batteries.

Are there any other cells that have energy density like that?
 
1C continuous on laptop LiCo is possible, but pushing the limit. 0.5C is the proper continuous rate with 1C for short period of time and 2C for burst. The highest energy density today is NCR18650B, 3.4Ah.

See the first 3 posts of "Info on Laptop 18650 LiCo cells" thread for detailed information.
 
I like how they call this a 3C cell but won't even produce a discharge graph of it at 3C.
You'd waste a hell of a lot of energy running it at 2C or even 1C.
Looks like it performs best at about 0.25C or under.

This is an ideal cell if you want some crazy 100 mile range distance pack.
 
Grey beard said:
Two of the 13AH batteries fit inside the triangle of my full suspension GT lts. One vertical along the seat tube, the other horizontal under the top tube.
http://www.allcelltech.com/images/act/ebike/allcell_48v_ebike.pdf
Click to expand...
Beware that allcelltech greatly exaggerates the cell's capability:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46756#p685307
 
SamTexas said:
Grey beard said:
Two of the 13AH batteries fit inside the triangle of my full suspension GT lts. One vertical along the seat tube, the other horizontal under the top tube.
http://www.allcelltech.com/images/act/ebike/allcell_48v_ebike.pdf
Click to expand...
Beware that allcelltech greatly exaggerates the cell's capability:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46756#p685307
Click to expand...
I read the other post and wondered how you became an expert on the product. You tested them?
This guy seems to do OK with them:
http://www.danhanebrinkbikes.com/Hanebrink/index.php/advanced-stuff/hanebrink5
That kind of performance not good enough for you?
 
Oh yeah, the motorcycle that goes 80mph on an ordinary ebike hub motor ( Crystalyte 5303 ) and claims a 200 mile range on about 1.75kw-hr of battery.

Quite possibly the biggest example of lying out your ass on specs in every single possible way. Puts the lies of your average china battery seller to shame :)

Poor example.
 
No, it's not that good.

At 40-45mph ( which is about what the motor could do continuously without melting down ) continuous, you'd have about a 10-20 mile range on this thing.

The entire time you traveled at 40mph, the battery would be pretty stressed out. You'd lose ~10% of your battery power to heat from sag. ( this would run a 1C battery at about 1-1.5C )
 
SamTexas said:
1C continuous on laptop LiCo is possible, but pushing the limit. 0.5C is the proper continuous rate with 1C for short period of time and 2C for burst. The highest energy density today is NCR18650B, 3.4Ah.

See the first 3 posts of "Info on Laptop 18650 LiCo cells" thread for detailed information.
Click to expand...


This is not LiCo, not that LiCo chemistry is necessarily any inherent limiter to C-rate, look at a Nano-tech cell, just make the solid interface layer thicker and add more fine carbon and thicker foils (at the cost of capacity) and you're higher C-rate. It's just that most are made for a laptop where it would be stupid to use thicker foils and more carbon and thicker SEM layers because the laptop or cell phone or whatever is gonna be draining it over a 4hr period so it's just wasting materials and potential capacity to make it able to do higher C-rates.
 
Ah. I have been wondering about the first letter (N). So that's Nickel (and cobalt and aluminum)? I have been looking for the genuine datasheet provided by Panasonic for this cell. Has anyone seen it?
 
Yes. Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide. Known as NCA.
The datasheet is public, Im posting from my phone while walking through a crowd at supercross in Oakland right now, so its tough to find for me, but im sure one of you guys can find it and post it.
 
I have seen many "datasheet" for it. None appears to be published by Panasonic. So yeah, I would appreciate the link to it. But no hurry.
 
Well this is odd...
See, I initially thought these cells were bogus (non attainable)
They kind of are, unless you OEM.
But this 720Wh pack next to me seems to stipulate other wise.
I'll know in a week or so when I'm done testing.
NCR18650PD.png
 
720Wh is a big pack! I have never seen a pack constructed this way. Can you show a zoom out picture of the complete pack? What was it designed for?
 
I wish every manufacturers provide a graph like that (with the cell temperature).

Look at the temp at the end of the 10A discharge, 65 celsius! And that's presumably for one single cell. The temp would easily reach 100C for a cell inside a pack without proper ventilation. Still 2.56C is impressive for such a high energy density cell.
 
10A is pushing that cell super hard. Looks like it becomes a 3.3v nominal cell under that condition and turns ~10% of it's watt hours to heat.

I don't know why they even show you a discharge graph that high. These cells will be smokin' hot afterwards. There's no way you can get the rated cycles if you push them that hard. 2C for short bursts is where i'd draw the line and you'd want to design your system to run the pack at no more than 1C continuous at all times.

Those temp graphs of course start at perfect room temperature. Your results will vary widely with temperature. The closer temps get to freezing from room temp ( ~70f ), the higher the internal resistance will be and the more sag / heat waste there will be, the IR can multiply by a factor of 5 on some cells as you approach 32F, which is another reason to not design these cells to do anything more than 1C.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35668

Heat buildup in the summer is another factor. Say it's 90F out and you're pushing these cells at the advertised 3C rate.. your cells could literally hit 100C.

Gotta have some headroom in your C rating otherwise your battery will not last and will perform badly in the cold. Consider these 1C cells unless your outdoor weather matches laboratory conditions year round :lol:
 
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