Need advice about drilling out a rim.

[nomad85]

Recently my rear rim cracked, I had dished the wheel so it would fit on my bike, and I must have done it poorly as now its trash. I saw a silver lining, now I can put a nice rim and good spokes on my motor. I got a sun ryhno lite rim and called up a bike shop, brought it all in and they wont touch it since the hub motor is drilled out for 12g spokes and they only have 14g, as well the rim wont accept 12g spokes... so I am dead in the water. Spokes are no biggie I can order some from ebikes.ca, but do I want to drill out the rim to accept 12g spokes, will that weaken it? what size bit would I need ect... is there a rim that I can buy that will work with 12g spokes? I want it to be really strong so I can have a passenger and cargo on my xtracycle.
advice and ideas are welcome! I am stuck with my slow front motor help me guys.
thanks,
Kyle

 

[Mark_A_W]

Umm...get a drill and drill it. We've all done this.

A bit of common sense would tell you to use a drill bit that's a touch bigger than the nipple.

What's stopping you?

 

[Mathurin]

I've drilled out a rim to run crap spokes & nipples, it's held up good on my extracycle carrying beer and a passenger, but I had the spokes and nipples already, if I started from scratch I'd have gotten better spokes cut, using spoke washers if needs be. Like DT swiss Alpine III or whatever. Try another bike shop?

 

[nomad85]

Umm...get a drill and drill it. We've all done this.

A bit of common sense would tell you to use a drill bit that's a touch bigger than the nipple.

What's stopping you?

I figured someone would be helpful, and tell me the size bit that works best with a 12g spoke so I don't have to guess and buy the wrong size(isn't that one of the virtues of a forum? to get advice from people who have already done what you are trying to do). It's not that routine, I don't know anyone that has ever drilled out a rim...

I emailed pretty much the same message to Justin at ebikes.ca, and he (helpfully) told me I may not have to drill it out, the hub should work with 13g spokes, and so will the rim, what a relief, I can use nice spokes

 

[nicobie]

After a 15 second google search:




WIRE GAUGE DIAMETER TABLE

American Wire gauge

Wire Diameter in inches

20

0.03196118

18

0.040303

16

0.0508214

14

0.064084

12

0.08080810

10

0.10189

8

0.128496

6

0.16202

5

0.18194

4

0.20431

3

0.22942

2

0.25763

1

0.2893

0

0.32486

00

0.3648

 

[Russell]

Recently my rear rim cracked, I had dished the wheel so it would fit on my bike, and I must have done it poorly as now its trash. I saw a silver lining, now I can put a nice rim and good spokes on my motor. I got a sun ryhno lite rim and called up a bike shop, brought it all in and they wont touch it since the hub motor is drilled out for 12g spokes and they only have 14g, as well the rim wont accept 12g spokes... so I am dead in the water. Spokes are no biggie I can order some from ebikes.ca, but do I want to drill out the rim to accept 12g spokes, will that weaken it? what size bit would I need ect... is there a rim that I can buy that will work with 12g spokes? I want it to be really strong so I can have a passenger and cargo on my xtracycle.
advice and ideas are welcome! I am stuck with my slow front motor help me guys.
thanks,
Kyle

Nomad,

Does your Ryhno Lite rim have eyeleted holes? If so then I’m not sure if drilling is the way to go.

My motor came originally with 13 gauge spokes but I re-laced it to a Sun CR18 using Wheelsmith DH13 butted spokes. These spokes are 13G on the flange end and 14G on the rim end so they use normal size nipples. The thing is the head of the spoke is no larger than a conventional 14G spoke so it did worry me as they look like they could pull out of oversized holes on the motor.

See on the photo how the heads are recessed in the holes.



Other guys on this forum are lacing the motors using conventional 14G spokes so maybe it’s not a problem though if I built another wheel with normal sized spokes I would see about using some spoke washers on the head of the spokes. A better solution though might be to use the DT Alpine III double-butted spokes. These spokes have a larger head which would work better with the larger motor flange spoke holes yet they still use conventional nipples. Unfortunately these spokes are not available in a size you need so they would have to be cut down and rethreaded, something few bike shops can do.

One final thing to remember is with a different rim you’ll likely need to use different length spokes than with your original rim. Every rim has a slightly different Effective Rim Diameter or ERD which needs to be figured in when determining spoke length.

-R

 

[nomad85]

After a 15 second google search:

you and mark should start a smart ass club. thanks for the data though

 

[nomad85]

Does your Ryhno Lite rim have eyeleted holes? If so then I’m not sure if drilling is the way to go.
I think it does

Other guys on this forum are lacing the motors using conventional 14G spokes so maybe it’s not a problem though if I built another wheel with normal sized spokes I would see about using some spoke washers on the head of the spokes. A better solution though might be to use the DT Alpine III double-butted spokes. These spokes have a larger head which would work better with the larger motor flange spoke holes yet they still use conventional nipples. Unfortunately these spokes are not available in a size you need so they would have to be cut down and rethreaded, something few bike shops can do.

One final thing to remember is with a different rim you’ll likely need to use different length spokes than with your original rim. Every rim has a slightly different Effective Rim Diameter or ERD which needs to be figured in when determining spoke length.

-R

Thanks I'll look into the DT Alpine III spokes, I have found a bike shop here that can cut and tread them.

 

[nomad85]

Russel, Thanks for pointing those out, my bike shop said they would work Thanks a million

 

[Russell]

Nomad, you're welcome.

One more thing, the Alpine III is only available in black here in the USA, if you want silver you'll have to order them from the UK. I was thinking about getting some from here;

http://www.petracycles.co.uk/alpine-silver-spokes-p-12148.html?currency=USD


-R

 

[nomad85]

I found silver spokes at alfred e bike for 72$ http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=details&PageID=30&SKU=SQ6292 but your link is cheaper, I'm going to try to cancel my order... I got the 293mm, and I wonder if thats too long and when they are cut it will be 13g at the hub and 15g at the rim, and then I wonder if that even matters... Maybe the 260mm spokes would still be 14g at the rim.

edit: I am crazy they are black... works since my motor and rim are also black.

 

[Ypedal]

I agree with Russell regarding the eyelets.

Instead of a drill bit, i've used a round file ( like what is used to sharpen a chainsaw )

It takes time and it's not much fun, but certainly possible as i've done it a dozen times so far.

I've tried drilling out eyelets and imo there is a very likely chance by the time you do 36 of them you will mangle the rim in one way or another lol.

By carefully using a round file you can ream the 14g eyelets to accept 12g spokes, for a rear wheel it gets a bit more complicated if you need to dish the rim for multispeed as things get really tight during assembly of the last few spokes lol.

Justin at ebikes.ca has a Phil Wood spoke machine, they can cut custom lenght as well. and yes, if you use smaller than 12g at the motor, use washers.

http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Proline/Unterlagsscheiben.aspx

 

[methods]

I drilled out a Sun rim a week or two ago for 13g spokes.
I just measured the nipple with a caliper and dug through the bits till I found one the same size.
Remember to take into account your drilling style.
If you can run straight and true use an oversized bit
If you are wobbling all over hell use a bit that is the same size as the hole you want and your oscillation will open it up larger.

So I drilled it all out and it was perfect
Right through the eyelets
All the niples fit.

Only trouble was that they were all perpendicular to the rim!
With a large hub motor in a small rim (5305 in a 24" rim) you need a lot of angle
(This was my first time lacing a wheel so I did not know)

So I went back with the drill and hit every other hole with an angle
First all the lefts, then all the rights

Now the nipples poke right in and set at the perfect angle
I laced up my very first wheel and it was tits.

To be honest I did screw the pooch on one nipple and it popped out.
Using a different type of bit and some patience as described above would be wise

So the answer to any DIY project is to not be scared and just do it.
If you pop a couple sleeves it wont be the end of the world. The spoke will work just fine
Replace them with half a rivit if you need to.

-methods

 

[Russell]

I found silver spokes at alfred e bike for 72$ http://aebike.com/page.cfm?action=details&PageID=30&SKU=SQ6292 but your link is cheaper, I'm going to try to cancel my order... I got the 293mm, and I wonder if thats too long and when they are cut it will be 13g at the hub and 15g at the rim, and then I wonder if that even matters... Maybe the 260mm spokes would still be 14g at the rim.

edit: I am crazy they are black... works since my motor and rim are also black.

Nomad,

Since you will have to get the Alpine III's cut to length you might want to contact ebikes.ca for the specs to their "Custom Cut Phil Wood Spoke Set, 13 gauge single-butted (2.2 - 2.0mm)" , specifically the size of the spoke head. For comparison a normal spoke head is about 3.8mm in diameter while the 13G spokes that originally came on my motor wheel are about 5.0mm wide. The length of the bent portion that fits in the flange is also about 1.5mm longer (7.6mm/6.1mm) on the 13G Vs the 14G spokes I have.

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_connectors.php

DT-Swiss specs

http://www.dtswiss.com/getdoc/02e74b95-35e2-4408-9ee5-48a7c0d70dd9/TechnicalDatasheet.aspx



-R

 

[The Stig]

Hey all I'm in the situation where I need to drill the rim to fit the niples for the 12g spokes I have . I skimmed the thread but didn't find info about rim hole/drill bit size. (this would be a good thing to edit into the original post if it was answered)


The bike is going to be a Downhill eFatbike. about 2kw in the rear and 500w in the front. 200mm travel front and rear. 26x4.8 tires.
Niples: 4.94mm
Rim holes: ~4.3mm
Front: 2-cross pattern with cute-100 motor
Rear: 1-cross pattern with a MAC 12T @~1800W
Both wheels will be laced such that the spokes that start from the left side of the hub cross over to the holes in the right side of the rim. (Further reading in this MTBR thread)


What size bit shall I use? My drill bit sizes are in inches (fractions).

As you can see the niple head fits through the hole in the first "wall" of the rim.

 

[MadRhino]

You just need to use the smallest one of your bits that will let the nipple through. If it is a tad bigger it is not an issue because your nipples will be at quite a bit of an angle anyway. You can drill the angle, making a neat lacing job. You could drill the inside wall too, to let some rim washers in, for that wide rim sure would like them on the long run.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Forget drilling the eyelets, its a true pain in the @ss. 13/14 gauge spokes are what you need. 13 gauge at the elbow, and 14 the rest of the way. any thicker and they will be too stiff.

One of our member, Johnrobertholmes cuts high quality custom spokes. and his prices beat most. I've used his services before and been real happy. http://www.holmeshobbies.com/blog/

 

[methods]

I run standard bike shop 14G on all my builds (including CroMotor on 100V 150A) and I have never broken a spoke. 12G spokes are often too stiff to stretch leading to loose spoke issues - then broken spokes. Stay far away from the Chinese 13G and 12G.

Check out Ebikes.ca
They have a killer deal for custom cut 13G spokes - cheaper than buying them raw and cutting/threading them yourself. (like I used to )

-methods

 

[The Stig]

The bike is going to be a Downhill eFatbike. about 2kw in the rear and 500w in the front. 200mm travel front and rear. 26x4.8 tires.

I like that idea of drilling the holes at the angle the niples will be at... that would reduce the chance of the rim cracking right?
So my drill bit should be the same diameter as what I measured for the niples.


I already have 12g spokes from holmes. Wish I knew about all this before. At least these spokes will take direct hits better, like rocks hitting them... and crashes... I updated my previous post with more info like this:

Front: 2-cross pattern with cute-100 motor (smaller than a bafang, ~2.1kg)
Rear: 1-cross pattern with a MAC 12T @~1800W max
Both wheels will be laced such that the spokes that start from the left side of the hub cross over to the holes in the right side of the rim. (Further reading in this MTBR thread)

 

[methods]

JRH sells quality spokes. You will end up with a good build.
Just stay away from the Chinese spokes that are made from mystery butter. They strip before you can tension them enough.

-methods

 

[Samd]

See on the photo how the heads are recessed in the holes.

Wait. Is that a torque arm on a front q100?
I think I want in on the smartass club.

Methods, I hadn't heard of mystery butter before. That is fantastic!

 

[biohazardman]

I have near 10K on my cheap Weinmann rims with good Sapim 12ga spokes, from http://www.holmeshobbies.com/blog/ as well, and have never had one break. I put the wheel together and then pulled one spoke at a time and drilled the rim at the same angle the spoke was going to connect to the hub. Then took a dremel and touched up the inside of the rim so the nipple could lay flat at the correct angle. It was allot of werq but I have hit some wicked bumps a few times and crashed once. Straight spokes at the nipples are good, see pic, and I even got the valve in the right place in this one. Then another pic of how it looked when I brought it back from the bike shop Ouch!!! You can see why I thought I could do better. Now the rims stay straight and spokes seldom need adjusted. In your case getting right spokes, since they are available, might save you a couple hours of werq and likely be a bit stronger. I had to put washers on the spokes one of my new Clyte 3540 motors cuz they drilled them so huge that even my 12ga spokes nearly pulled through! Naturally it was an early motor with the seal that cut through the wires within a few miles as well. I still don't have it on the road. Thanks Clyte personages for the poorest of quality I have ever seen in a hub motor. Just take your time how ever you decide to do it and get things right as your life and well being depends on the quality of your build.

View attachment 1

 

[methods]

Thanks Clyte personages for the poorest of quality I have ever seen in a hub motor.

Then you must not have been around when all of the rear hubs were offset by an inch or two from center, the axles were 12mm x 10mm, and the phase wires were like 20awg.

Rubbing tires, spun axles, and wheels so offset they looked like umbrellas.

-methods

 

[The Stig]

Ahh the good old days...

 

[John in CR]

Though the OP is quite old, as Methods mentioned above 14ga spokes is the way to go. That's what proved the most durable on LFP's crazy high power Deathbike. It's also the easy answer, since you just drill new properly sized spoke holes on the motor. It may not work on the small diameter hubbies with spoke holes already closely spaced, but the 200mm and up diameter hubbies will be fine. I think it's the Cromotors that come predrilled for both.

If you want to use thick spokes, then you need a moped or moto rim which can withstand the proper tensioning of thick spokes, not a bicycle rim, and definitely not a bicycle rim you've messed up by drilling it out.

John