Need Advise For E-bike

Hey Dogman.
I believe that the throttle response is as good or bad as the throttle. I have a good one that I adjusted with some resistors a la Fechter technique to give full range in rotation, and this really helps match the motor power band. I use a full grip throttle and it is quite linear in function. Most of the ones "out of the box" seem to work like on/off switches and are really hard to adjust. Just MHO! I guess with higher power (72-100+ volts) it is even more critical, but I will never find that out. 48 volts works fine for my needs!
otherDoc
 
I put a Bionx on a Townie for my wife last summer, and we've both put some miles on it. It's a beautiful experience. As pointed out above, the NiMH battery isn't (wasn't) as frighteningly expensive as the LiPo -- but that is discontinued now on all but the lowest power model. That's what we got last year.

We had a party last summer, and encouraged everyone to ride it. They all loved it. One friend came riding back with a big smile and said, "It's like riding a bicycle in a dream!" I think that sums it up nicely.

I've been writing to Ping about Bionx. He says he's interested in working on creating a battery that will work with the Bionx. If this were available now I would have bought a Bionx for myself-- at least if I could buy it without their LiPo.

One shortcoming of the Bionx is that it's weak on very steep hills. Meaning, it actually stalls at points. If you live someplace like Vermont, it might not be the best choice.
Also, because of the limited battery choices, range is absolutely limited.

I wanted more range, less locked-in by the battery, and at least slightly better power up hills, so I'm using a geared motor, thumb throttle, and Ping 20 ahH, all for less money that any Bionx. This is in a time of tight finances. My business (web design and photography) is at a relative low and my wife is working half time.

If I were feeling financially flush, I would get the 500W Bionx and a spare battery to bring along for longer trips. I think that would be a very deluxe eBike, at least for people who want to pedal and get some exercise and a bicycle-in-a-dream experience.
 
Vancouver British Columbia has its own fair share of steep hills too -- we live very close to the mountains and some streets are very steep -- very close to 20% grades. If you ride your Bionx like an eZee or a straight throttled bike, then yes, it's a bit slow and underpowered. So, you must ride the Bionx like a regular bike. You must shift your gears down to granny at the 20% grades and my Dahon Mu SL is set up that way (therefore I loose my high speed gearing). Other than that, my low end low powered P-250 can take me up any steep long hill. In fact, I rode with regular cyclists on a Sunday ride for up to 65km assist with last 15km no assist to a total of 80km with 5 hills on a 24V 8aH NiMH batt (1 of them is like 4km long 8% grade) and the P-250 managed to outdo the hill climb with me riding against my best friend on his carbon bike. As you can all see on this equation, the system shines if put under a good fit rider. In fact, the fitter the rider, the better performance the system will get which actually makes you a fitter cyclist by riding it because you are still exerting pedal forces. You see, if you want to push the Bionx hard, you can and it will reply with much more forward propulsion. Just a few days ago, I was going up this steep 10% grade hill at 28km/h trying to match my speed with a 800w electric scooter which was going much faster so perhaps 32km/h. The best a strong bike racer on a carbon bike can do on this same hill is like 18km/h, while I can only do about 14km/h which if I multiply it by pedal ratio set by the computer yielded 28km/h, but the pedal effort can not always be constant and your power output varies and your crank spin varies too unless of course you're somebody like Lance Armstrong. So the Bionx system will fill in your power inconsistency and provide consistent sum of your and its own power output. Again, no system and no human being can do this to respond that quickly. It's simply impossible because you can't really know what your power output unless you strap a heart rate monitor all the time when you ride an ebike, which is kind of stupid or have a Cyclops Power Tap hub at the rear. And heart rate monitor is influenced by stress, heat, and your medical condition. In fact, that's the idea behind the Cyclops Power Tap hub -- to train a cyclist to manage pedal power output for efficiency. The Bionx's strain gauge works almost the same way. I know eZee has this potentiometer thing and yes you can dial it in and yes you can apply your own manual assist, but it only works in some gears. In the Bionx, the proportional assist works in ALL gears, that's all 27 speeds if you have a 9 speed cassette and a triple chain ring providing natural power assist to pedal power. This is what appeals to me more than any other powerful system out there and that is why I chose the P-250, because I wanted only the assist not a speed hare that can go 45-50km/h or up some 10% hill at 32 to 40km/h. If I want that, I drive my car which can go a lot faster, go further and have more room to carry my heavy work equipment. I know some people who came from a car culture and immediately wanted more speed, range etc, but they are forgetting that it is still a bicycle. The more you put into the bike to become faster, the more it becomes a full assist vehicle. It's like comparing my car to my Bionx bike is no comparison at all. They serve different needs.

There's really no great system out there, Bionx notwithstanding. The downside of the Bionx is truly its unique close system, though I've seen what's truly inside the battery box and the circuitry and I know you can adapt any battery into it but you must disable the regeneration function, or I suspect you might fry something. When my NiMH dies, I will do just that!

Last but not least is the cost of running the system. As NutsnVolts had pointed out, while the initial cost of setting up an ebike may not be much, through upgrades the cost will go up. If the ebike is your primary mode of transportation then the cost is justified. When an ebike is a suplementary mode of transportation like mine is, then the cost is factored into my future gas purchase. If I spent $1500 for a Bionx, it means $1500 of my gas money is gone into this bike. If I don't ride it, then it's trapped on that bike, so I figure that if I like riding it more, then I sure will save some money by driving less. There are stretches on my commute route that I wished to simply push that throttle button and pedal as fast as I could because of the vicious truck drivers who show no patience waiting for a cyclist to cruise through at 30km/h. That's where having the motor really shines.
 
The first e-bike I ever rode was a Bionx PL-350. We have a local dealer here. I was very impressed with it, but the price was steep. If cost benefit is a factor for you, you are going to have to ride many, many, many miles to have that kit pay for itself. When I first rode one, gas was around $4.00 a gallon and even at those prices I just couldn't justify it. I know there's one guy on here that saves about $15 every time he takes his bike to work because of the savings in ferry tolls. If I was in his situation I could have maybe been able to justify the expense of the Bionx. As it was though I just kept watching this forum and saving and watching and watching and saving. Then Terry at Hitekbikes offered his kit and I read Dogman's review of it and decided to give it a try. I am very glad I did not buy the Bionx. At the time I bought Terry's kit it was $699 shipped with 36v10ah LiFePo.....the Bionx PL-350 was $1,700. If I would have wanted the Bionx there was a backorder up to a month. I had Terry's kit in my hand in less than a week. To top things off, I took the bike to the Bionx dealer here in town this week and even he was VERY impressed and was very interested in learning more about how to become a dealer of these kits. One of the weird things about e-biking is there just isn't much opportunity for people to "try before they buy." You do your research, you buy the kit and you cross your fingers. I have only ridden two e-bikes.....the top of the line Bionx, and a $700 front hub kit from Terry. I have NO regrets about the choice I made. One other thing about the Bionx that I don't think anyone else has mentioned is that the Bionx kit is internally governed to give you no assist above 22mph. Terry's kit is quite easily giving 24 mph on the flats w/no assist. Because I have a large front sprocket I can achieve 30 mph on the flats giving pedal assist. I have only done a test with the front wheel off the ground once or twice and I think the wheel turned 33 mph.....so unless there is some science at work I don't understand, Terry's kit gives you assist up to that speed. Anyway...just thought I'd give you some more info to muddy the waters! :D
 
I am not sure why the thread had gone so, ahem, politically motivated by the DYI people, people who hadn't even ridden a Bionx bike before and seemed to be experts of how it works. I have ridden most, rented from a local electric bike dealer here on the eZee and to the most powerful fastest ebike money can buy. They are great system. If this is what you want, fine it is your money. But what about public transit?
You can save money riding on those?

I have owned the P-250 for more than a year and had been impressed with the reliability. Like Nuts&Volts said, I see Bionx bikes often on the Vancouver bike paths but that is not indicative of their popularity. Still, regular bikes reign supreme on our bike paths with a few ebikers. I have no problem with people who use ebikes to commute and to go green. If you want to go fast, you need to simply respect the rules of the road. Sadly, some ebikers don't and the attitudes of some of them here in Vancouver are simply distasteful, like one who was on Knight Street bridge harassing a poor guy to move over because he was going up the narrow sidewalk path too slow. Ahh, 10km/h is not slow up the hill when his e-scooter can do 40km/h. I yelled at him to say, what's the rush and your bloody bike is too big and dangerous to pass him! He gave me a finger back and yelled some sort of profanity.
No wonder some of us here who ride ebikes get no respect from regular cyclists!
 
Drunkskunk said:
this thread is starting to look like a Bionx commercial
tl;dr

I think the original poster was inquiring about e-bikes and the functionality of the Bionx system. The poster laid out a number of wishes and would like the input of users of the system. I am one of that user and it's not a commercial because I've used it a lot. I also have used a number of other systems before I settled down on the Bionx. I was also impressed with the eZee kit and I made no intention to try and hide it. I also tried much more powerful and faster bikes and the owner actually wanted to sell me fast bikes because that's what people want. If a bike can burn rubber, that's even better. I told them no, my intention was purely assist basis based on pedaling effort. I want to ride the bike for the sake's of riding. If you want to ride fast, get a Vespa! There are also issues with riding fast, especially close to car speed. It may be fun riding very fast initially, but if you are involved in a crash, your bike helmet and no skin protection will ultimately hurt you bad or more seriously. People who get into this don't know what a broken collar bone or a dislocated shoulder feels like or a twisted finger felt like -- today I'm still feeling it. I had as I had been mountain biking in the past and went down bad at close to 50km/h. My helmet split in half, blood from the head and broken shoulder and collarbone. Doctor told me that I could have died. If you haven't experienced this before, you will never know the true pain. And yet, I see people riding ebikes with minimal protection and yet going so fast beyond want a normal cyclist can do. It may never happen to you today, may never happen to you tomorrow, but someday it will. My intention getting the ebike is simply the lure of the assist and nothing else. I think I made that clear too. If the poster is not looking purely for the assist, then he would have made the choice already then and gone with something more powerful and perhaps cheaper. But it doesn't do the way how a Bionx bike work. I am not sure why people here still keep beating the bush that it does, it will and it can. The answer is, it can not do exactly like the Bionx kit because of the power aspect of the strong open motor (you see people say it already -- I can go fast, faster than a typical human cyclist can sustain for a day's ride unless you're a Tour De France rider) and that is not human possible and that's not what Bionx bike riders are looking at either. Bionx is not perfect. I said I like eZee and yes I do for my next bike if I have the money. I just need to justify it to "her majesty" so to speak! :mrgreen:
 
I, too, am in the gathering information stage and am fumbling about, attempting to make decisions regarding value versus cost versus suitability versus reliability versus serviceability versus etc., etc., etc. The plan is to have an e-bike ready for a two-to-three times a week, 20-mile one-way commute (40-mile both ways) starting in mid-August. With regard to Bionx, my initial thoughts were similar to many -- too expensive for what you paid, proprietary, not a great reputation for customer service. But now I would add yet another reason why not to buy one: I would not want anyone to mistake me for one of the effete snobs who look down upon we peons -- yes, we lowly peons! -- who cannot possibly comprehend how positively wretched we are for not owning a Bionx -- the only possible solution for the right-thinking, health-seeking, well-informed e-biker.

Oh, well. Someone has to play the part of the peon or the snobs wouldn't have anyone to look down upon...
 
Agree with nutsandvolts -- have seen no bionx snobbery. It's a very nice system, with limitations, and for a price. It seems the bionx posters are aware of the matrix of benefits, costs, and limits.
 
With the nice weather upon us, and in similar circumstances as the OP (240 lbs, can climb but don't like it, desire to ride) I went for the immediate gratification of an eZee Forza. No regrets, although I do want to build a 48V bike at some point. It is tempting to use a long tail or a full suspension bike or something else cool as the basis. In truth, the Forza handles very well with the battery ideally placed and good basic geometry. Perhaps to overpower it some how instead...

Yeah, there are a lot of options. A simple one is the eZee Forza which has worked out well for me. I think you can spend less than the $2K+ they go for (some room may be available, I traded in a neglected second Brompton folder), but to do so you should plan to start with a good used bike (plenty around) and to spend some time tinkering, rather than riding in what remains of spring.
 
As others have said, there are some very nice things about the BionX setup. I went out for a ride yesterday and never touched the throttle (although most BionX's have them now). When I was evaluating bikes there were a few things that I had as requirements... 1) able to handle a 14mi (level, but windy) one way commute on single charge, 2) relatively light weight, 3) remaining bike path-legal, and 4) primarily a way to get moderate levels of exercise. The BionX I think was a good match-up to those requirements. I like the description of "bicycling in a dream"... it is fun like that, but can be dialed to the level you want. My requirements don't include going faster than 20mph... most of the bike paths I'd ride aren't safe beyond that.

But there are definitely the downsides. I wish BionX was more creative in their options and there's little that can be done to customize. I didn't like the way their battery box looked (although it works fine). I'm happier after I repainted mine. For others with longer commute paths, or more difficult requirements (speed, rider weight, hills), I'm sure that an option for more energy than 36V,9.6AH would be appreciated. But for many, it's an ideal system.
 
Wonderprofessor,

The choice for you can actually be quite simple. First of all, have you ridden 20 miles before on a bike? If you have, how do you feel you can improve the ride feeling, by not riding up so many hills, by not sweating so much and how fast you want to go? Are you riding mostly in bike paths where there might be a speed limit imposed or riding under the speed limit simply for the sakes of safety on pedestrians and other cycle commuters?!? What is your budget? As Nuts&Volts had put in eloquently though that by trying to save money on ebike projects will usually lead you to spend even more -- trust me it's very addictive!
The Bionx system puts a stop somewhat on this because you can't really do much to it.

The key to sizing up the bike of your dream depends really on your cycling fitness. How much of that fitness you want to keep, because if you are fit when you're on a regular bike, you'll gradually become less fit when you're on one of any ebikes and that is a guarantee unless you crosstrain on a regular bike to maintain fitness or like the Bionx system, simply dial down the assist level so you can exercise more. If your dream is to do some light aerobic pedaling with and or without motor assist on the flat and on the downhill stretch, but like the full assist on hills, then a geared hub like the eZee or a Bafang would do very nicely. And that was the appeal of the eZee for me. If you dedicate one bike as purely for transport (grocery shopping, malls, going to the pool, beach and what not) and for a relatively low entry cost, the eZee is really good. Comes with everything you need, hub, nice Schawlbe marathon tire, disc and very nice rim, controller and throttle control. Choose a battery of your liking and range you want to achieve, then you're good to go. It doesn't have the dream factor of a Bionx, but the setup is pretty straight forward.

However, if you're looking purely for the speed factor because you want to get from point A to B in a heart beat and don't want to ride lots, then the strong powerful motor is the way to go, but they are usually not street legal. You can get pulled over if the cop suspects that you're running a powerful motor, though I think those incidents are rare. Don't quote me on that because our city had recently went into a cyclist crackdown, cops here issuing expensive warning fines for speeding, running stop signs and crossing the bridge without a bell!
 
I'm fitter than ever in the last 10 years with my simple direct drive motor. Obviously the 58 tooth front crank has a lot to do with this, but with any bike, at any speed, if you do match the motor throttle to your gear on the bike you can pedal hard and get fitter and fitter by riding far longer than usual. The opposite can be true, if you choose to ride faster than the bike can be pedaled. But it is not a garanteed thing, just what happens to lazier people. Matching motor speed to gearing was not an easy skill to learn for me. I was always a bike lover, so unlike some folks I would not tolerate a bike I didn't pedal on.

I have to agree though, that the bionx sounds like the easiest route to that goal of not getting flabbier on an ebike. They just need to make em so they can run on any battery you have in my opinion. You should at least be able to paralell on some more nimh easily. Too bad they don't sell a seperate controller, pedal sensor, throttle setup that can be used on any motor.
 
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