NEO 29er Controller

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I have a NEO 29er torn down. Pics elsewhere.

Battery was shot, tore that down... separated the pack electronics from the cells. The only electrical connections between the pack and the bike are

* Power
* Ground
* Yellow Wire (Presumably some sort of enable)

I am dumping the pack and going with Ryobi tool packs in series. Now for a controller...



Be fine with that... only it has a few wires to the dash. I could finger it out, but... it is only 36V@20A and I have other controllers....



Thats the PN
Three wires to the battery, a throttle, a pair of ebrakes, and some crap to a little dash nugget that is broken. Presumably sets power levels or changes mode between assist. I got the bike from a local machinist in a total state of disarray. It sat for years on a dead battery and the lame BMS inside ate the pack.



I have a little 12S over here that I may replace it with.

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Nope, totally different.
Off to go do kid stuff

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ok, cheating now to get the show on the road.

ebikeling

https://www.amazon.com/EBIKELING-Waterproof-Brushless-Controller-Electric/dp/B07XP6GJ1T?th=1

Ok, has an 8pin connector to some kind of control module. Sigh... problem with those is that everybody just uses the module. Highly unworth the time to debugger the protocol, be it uart or discrete.

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https://ebikeling.com/pages/faq-ebike-conversion-kit

30A comp
Notice pn LCD vs LCDSM
Notice silver vs black
https://ebikeling.com/collections/ebike-controllers/products/48v-1200w-waterproof-brushless-controller-led-lcd

Description says it is compatible with LED and LCD. LED will most likely be simple button presses to get it functional. Maybe not optimal, but functional. ... tho, that description is LCDSM, not LCD



Now we know that the 2pin is brake.
Brake input is this VK+ we were pondering about.
Tie battery negative to VK+, and you get brake action.

Throttle is also as we suspected.

4 cables completely understood
* Battery Cable
* Motor Cable
* Throttle Cable
* Brake Cable

The final cable, this "Display Cable". Lucky for us... we have eliminated now many of those pins. One more down.

Solved
Red, goes to Battery Positive = likely display voltage on battery at computer
Blue, goes to VK+ = Provide brake action by computer
Brown, goes to +5V = likely power computer
Black, goes to digital Ground = Power... but bad thing, brake currents travel pack here. Ok, will work.

4 left to mystery
Yellow, goes to LED

Green, goes to P1
Gray, goes to SP
White, goes to TA

See how easy?
Biggest problem, now almost solve. Brake action shows Active Low is action of choice. In absence of further information, look at P1, TA, SP... see that they are digital inputs maybe, try apply active low, test with all other things work well in working well shape (correct connected).

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Ah ha... clearly winning now.
I dont know who marked up that picture. . . but I think their translation is a little off.

So if we want "Winning Ducks" then apparently we have to have learnings to find
* 810 LED
* S830

Ok, onward to that goal.

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Ah ha
Pure Jenkem
https://ebikeling.com/products/36v-48v-s830-waterproof-lcd-display?pr_prod_strat=copurchase&pr_rec_pid=4061132030016&pr_ref_pid=4059674574912&pr_seq=uniform

So...
Shows speed, that pretty much tells us that one of the pins is RPM*

Allows selection of PAS intensity (dont care)

Allows see battery state (purpose of Battery Voltage going out there - good luck! Thing will make smoke crystals)

Ok - Function turning for on and off. This ... THIS... is the feature we need two points to find vector.
* Turn ON or OFF from LCD
* Turn ON or OFF from LED
* methods turn ON or OFF with brown stick!

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uh oh, for great sadness induce this model.



Appearing that "Main Harness" - this one can connect to my 8 pin. EH hem!!!
In pictures above, we see things of interest

* Only 5 pins to display or control or whatever
* Off to the bushes two brakes and one throttle

Yes... 5 pins to solve riddle prefer from solve 8 pins to riddle, find happy lucky

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Oh yes, the pleasure I feel is great now.
The "Happy Ending" I heard about, I have found the place where it happens!



So...
See that?
That is the LCD connector and it is only 5 pins!

Now... how ... many... did... we... have... left??????????

5 go to the LCD, and some may go to two places. As proof, Brake splits in two. Make no assumption, result in not make ass of you and me.

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Ah ha!
Now these I know the tricks of!
Fancy screen... I do not care. Three buttons? This I can solve.

https://ebikeling.com/collections/ebike-lcd-and-led-displays

Those are the available interfaces. Just because the connector is the same,... does not mean they will be compatible. Just f to the I, why.

https://ebikeling.com/collections/ebike-lcd-and-led-displays/products/48v-led-display-810

Not the right one. . . but horse does not wander too far from water. 5 pins... and 5 pins. Not much going on there at all.

* Single Power button
* Single Mode button
* Other crap

Right?///......

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SOLVED
TIME - 1928 Pacific

https://ebikeling.com/collections/ebike-lcd-and-led-displays/products/36-48v-810-waterproof-led-display-5-pin

* Has the same 5 pin connector

* Has a Power Button
* Has a Cruise Control button
* Has a 3 assist levels, which is MODE
* Has option to tune to 36V or 48V... so ... this accounts for HV coming in!

Now
TO MAP THOSE TO THE PINS WE HAVE NAMES FOR (Same designer, duh!)

Solved
Red, goes to Battery Positive = likely display voltage on battery at computer
Blue, goes to VK+ = Provide brake action by computer
Brown, goes to +5V = likely power computer
Black, goes to digital Ground = Power... but bad thing, brake currents travel pack here. Ok, will work.

4 left to mystery
Yellow, goes to LED = I dont care

Now only 3 to care about. Three buttons, three functions. Power, Assist Level, Cruise
Green, goes to P1
Gray, goes to SP
White, goes to TA

Maybe P1... this toggles power
Maybe TA... maybe this makes assist level change
Maybe SP... means Cruise

At this point, fastest method is to hook it all up and see

* Motor attached with valid hall signals, including temperature sensor from motor!
* Battery attached in valid range
* Spark other wires together

We will quick-check the 3 wires of interest, make sure they are showing PullUp behavior... then make sparkles to ground with each, see things change. Maybe ... who knows... we find out quick!

W I N N I N G

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Speculation of course, until proven.

Off to go make proofs to show correct* Involves... great sorry of cutting many wires. Unwise to solder directly one controller to motor. ALWAYS have connectors there. So... from where to find connectors?

Sigh
* Change Some
* Snatch Some
* Figure it out

All the connectors have to go from this controller, useless to me. I will likely never waste time with that potted controller, so... Will likely just cut all of those off so it can be pluging and playing. ... End result, took COTS bike, double current limit and bypassed native controls. Good enough win for me. Like drop V8 into i4 car. Vrooooooom.

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https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0144/7143/0208/files/Ebikeling_Lcd_S830_User_Manual.pdf?5815502100822214133

Hard to find instructions.
Not even the instructions for the LCD.

Good news?
Those are the instructions for the device I have here. Same thing... M in the middle, up and down arrows. To make that one go, I do the following

* Press M
* Press UP

M turns it on, up puts it in the first speed mode ... of like 8 or 10. At that point, throttle works. All the settings are the same, no difference in any of them.

So
I should be able to make sparkle on only 2 wires, bike will go. You then leave unattended, ... it goes to sleep in a certain time. This is MOST DESIREABLE behavior of all behaviors. I leave my battery attached to my Recumbent Tadepole... never an issue, never wakes up, never stays on, no troubles at all. It just... W O R K S.

Eh hem

Funny how a missing 3 lines of code can cost an Industry so many bad experiences*

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Found a hidden datasheet.
Clicked on a blank page (where on others there were pictures)
Took me to this page
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0144/7143/0208/files/TFT_750C_LCD_User_Description.pdf?v=1594654778

Actual data sheet. Different interface. Scroll to bottom see

5V & Ground
Voltage for reading
RX and TX

That is most definitely different model... things to learn there tho. If yours has a uart it can be solved instantly with an Arduino but... infinitely hard if you are trying to spark wires to make serial at 9600 baud. I would say that it will take you 2 to 3 years minimum to spark correct format to start controller* :|

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. . .
So now it is the next day.
Title of the thread is "NEO 29er Controller"
If you read the thread, you will find it is actually now about *another* controller.

WHY?

... And after that -> "Should we split the thread?"

The answer to "WHY" is that the factory NEO controller is a potted brick that we can not see into. That is a "Black Box" and a real waste of time unless you have SOME IDEA of the architecture inside (which we explored in a non-potted controller). IF, I have a NEO system in working order THEN I can probe and find what the signals are doing at time of button press. IF I do not have a working sample THEN...

Our best bet is to run a different controller.
SO
That is what I did, found the next controller on the shelf and started reverse engineering it.

NOW
As to whether the thread should be Split since it does not perfectly map to the expectations of a non-expert moderator who wants things to line up with a conceptual model...

... See
This is where we fought before...

This is NOT
two threads, one on the 29er and one on the ebikeling controller. Only a business man would think that... and if you keep doing that to the internet then it will end up like the bible. Overly interpreted by people who are missing the point... to the degree that the original point is completely destroyed and some new point is made ... which is non-truth.

The POINT
Is the solving of the problem and where ever that takes us. Just because we happen to solve one small bit of something else ... while trying to solve a large and tough problem, does not mean that we split that thread.

Do not do that.
Google does not need you to do that.

Leave the original content in context.
Let a nerd come and compile a new focused thread.
Do not... chop up threads... and strip them down for parts.

That is like...
Going to a Car that wont start because one single wire is disconnected... Going to that car... and Parting it out. Pulling the Alternator and the rear differential, then the passenger seat and the rear window.

No

I get it that the individual Parts Value of a Vehicle sums up in dollars to much more than the car could be sold for in running condition (or at least it appears that way) but that bastard-thinking economic model does not account for the ACTUAL COST of the process including all the time and effort, space and waste... ... parts of a car... WORTH NOTHING. Whole Car? Infinitely valuable to the man who needs to get from the Beach to the Garbage Can, to eat.

Does that make sense?

... Tearing up threads is tearing up an Automobile
Yea - cool - you got the seatbelt bolt you needed... but you ruined the system to do so...

ROBOTS
Are plenty good at sorting thru all this text to find Contextually Valuable information. Far more valuable than KeyWord information. Advertisers use KeyWord information, that is totally 2000's. We are over it man. What it is about now is finding something WITHOUT the key words.

Get it?

Passing Google the IDEA of what you want and having the correct answer come back WITHOUT any key words. Sigh... never mind.... just... Do not split this thread.

The point of the thread is that the NEO 29er comes with a potted controller and this is the process I am using to solve for that controller. Maybe now I go and have a wack at solving that 29er comms port with 5 pins now that I did some research. This thread maps that PROCESS, as opposed to the consumer model of

* Let me go to resource
* Ask question and get answer
* Pay $5

No
No thanks, no thanks at all. If anyone tries to index MY information for a model like that, I will not be pleased. In fact, I will be angered. . . as... it will contribute to the dumbing down of yet another generation... while they stand there with their mouth open... and their hand out with money in it... waiting to get fed what they want... in some sick business game of weird slavery.

Vomit
No Thanks
A few of us will stay behind and actually try to retain some of the original content and intent. . . which... I am quite certain is in jeopardy.

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So
Since no all seeing eye in the sky has split up my thread, deleted it, or otherwise modified it. . . onward.

...
On the day that I got the two controllers (ebikeling) the previous owner mentioned the cable. This is the cable I "stumbled onto" in the thread behind us. It has 8 pins on one side, and Throttle, Ebrake, Ebrake, Monitor on the other. IIRC, he gave me this cable.

What we are looking for. . .
Is some point of SYSTEM INTERFACE

Some point where. . .
We can all agree on a given, standard, interface.



Yea
Big subject, I know.

... Blah blah blah
phD thesis here

In 2 sentences or less, there are two ways that System Interfaces come to be.

1) Thru happenstance
2) Thru committee

This is true in many areas today - like... EV Charge Standards and Programming Languages.

Here is truth
Every programming language (up until about 2010) that was "designed" ended up sucking ass. Nobody took to it, they did not work, they died. The programming language that has passed the test of time. . . C... and variants... and... if you review the history, it was never intended to be used for anything other than what it was invented for*

Same is true with Wiring and Interfaces
Our current EV infrastructure is about the worst you could possibly hope for. I have half a book of history on that, first person observations of the actual design being put in place. I have a 1.5hr "60 minutes" set of short interviews that will paint a picture of ... wicked ugly. ... Setting that to the side, lets talk about INTERFACES

...
There is a website owned by a dude named Eric
It lists a million bikes, but - afaict - it does not list any of the information you could actually use or want! By contrast, there is another website, which lists all of the information you could ever want to utilize the equipment.

Examples:
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/phaserunner.html

That is a controller from the owner of this forum. He does not pay me, I do not pay him, and in fact we have not spoken in years.

... So
My point is that the controller above is Potted
BUT
It is also
DOCUMENTED



See the difference?

Every single pin and function in that piece of gear is documented all to hell. . . for... anyone who wants to play with it to understand. Now lets contrast that.

https://electricbikereview.com/easy-motion/neo-29er/
https://www.elvmotors.com/
(20 more links)

Now -
Do any of those links on the 29'er tell you ANYTHING of any use about how to get the product working in an Upcycle sense? Are there any pinouts anywhere? A forum to help troubleshoot?

NO
Not their intent
Their intent is to sell you a bike, and if they have to... sell you a few replacement parts, but not for long. Soon... they want to sell you a NEW BIKE.

Right?
These are Sales People who judge success in their year after year sales increases.

THIS
Is the opposite of what we want, and it is the raping of what we need. I will try to explain in a sentence or three.

...

The OEM producing these bikes
The Retailers selling these bikes
The Entire system around these bikes

WHO
Is taking responsibility for the Waste Stream?

Does the MFG have to pay for the waste stream of the bike once it shits out because I can not repair it? Are they going to pay to send me a box, pay for the shipping back? ... Nah, they are not. I am now stuck with their Chinese Built (to American spec) waste stream, and I am encouraged to buy a new bike.

THAT

Is a bunch of crap

THE WHOLE IDEA HERE

Was to set an example of UpStream. . . by having the parts NOT GO TO WASTE. . . but having the parts upcycle into lower and lower tiers. Now listen...

* Only rich people can afford these bikes
* Once they break, the parts are supposed to spread out to the poorer people so we can build DIY

Instead

* All this proprietary dick wrangling is causing all of these bikes to go in the F'ING DUMPSTER

Right in the god damn dumpster... because
* There are no pinouts
* There is no aftermarket
* They are not serviceable
* They are not durable goods

The damn rich people will pay whatever they cost. . . so. . . if we were wise humans. . . we would focus the spend less on aesthetics and bullshit plastic and more on the actual durability and upcycle-ness of the product!

We would spend money on documentation and avoiding waste stream

Do you see?

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Legos

That is what you want.
If you do a study of Autozone or any AutoParts store you will find that they have played a clever game. They have sourced a line of products that are modified in a way that they will lego into multiple models of cars across many manufacturers.

Alternator
You do not buy the one specific to your car! DUH!

* Honda
* Accord
* This model, that model
* Maybe this other brand, that other brand
* Sometimes something fits on a Jeep and a Mazda

There are parts in common, and parts that are different. The way it works. . . is the brackets first. A "Universal" bracket is devised that is a compromise of all the specific brackets. It has extra holes and a longer slide and in this vehicle it may require moving the harness and in that vehicle it may fit a little tight...

but it works

What they do... is find the COMONALITY of as many vehicles as they can and make a Lego that can fit them. You have to run the search backwards to see it. OF COURSE, if you search for your specific car, you get a specific alternator back. BUT, if instead you search for a specific Autozone alternator, you may get back 50 different cars that it will "Fit".

Got it?

Sometimes this requires adapter cables
Sometimes this requires adapter plates
Sometimes this results in sub-factory performance

But... it allows you to maintain the original equipment, making it a durable good.

SO

What we want to see, is if there is any commonality between these three controllers I have... such that a meeting point can be found... where I can leverage some of what is there... and ... not throw this stuff in the dumpster.

Sigh

How do I say this

...

I ... Know the revolution has lit off great. Nobody could have imagined it would go this well. BUT... the fight is not over. Just because right now half the people in Santa Cruz are riding ebikes. . . does not mean the fight is over. To a T... nearly every one of those ebikes is highly proprietary and non-serviceable. Every single one of them is going to take a shit and go in the dumpster, just like Jump Bikes did.

THIS

Will show up as a PEAK in the graph, when what we want is a steady slope going up to the right.

NOBODY

Wants to pay $2.5k or $5k or $7.5k over and over, every few years, for an over-designed electric bicycle. NOBODY... and... I dont want to hear any marketing crap about how these are the early years and a big plateau is coming where ... all of a sudden everything will be rad and green.

NO
It is not rad and green unless it UPCYCLES

UPCYCLE

UPCYCLE

... sigh
You have to post the damn pinout if you want something to Upcycle. You have to accept that someone else may produce something that is better than what you produce, that matches your interface....

sigh
Nevermind

Let the Business guys run this one into the ground like all the others. Just... remember that methods told you something... and it is very important and hard to understand.

...
...
...

YES
The business people have always been in charge

BUT
Things have never moved as fast as they do now, nor has there ever been a global communication system like this.

* Moves 10X to 100X faster now
* Global Communication

Both of those are game changers beyond anything you have ever seen. . . and... therefore... the previous proofs and truths are up for debate and ... the stakes have changed... and ... the failures will now come MUCH faster and have MUCH larger impacts.

Business People
Can not run this world

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Now...
What I seek as an Engineer is to be proven wrong.

What I really hope for is to find some resource where these pockets of information CAN be found and the pinouts ARE out there and we CAN upcycle all of this equipment that is about to be recycled for metal value.

An entire niche industry can again open up... just like you saw last time.

A guy in his garage. . .
Could fund his tools and weekend time...
By simply knocking out a bracket here and there to adapt this piece of gearbox to that piece of frame...

Another guy might be able to finger out an adapter cable, that lets you run any of these controllers (which are good) on any of those bikes (that have a good motor)

This
Is not a profitable venture. The best you could hope to do is break even, buy a few tools, learn a bunch, not go broke. . .. but... in doing so... you will change the world in a positive way.

We demonstrated how to do this previously
The path has been proven, it is now your turn.

...

Get it?

Look to the old threads where guys like Fetchter and GoodRum lit the fuse. You have to understand that at that time. . . we did not even know what a rechargeable lithium battery was. How to manage it. How to ... deal with it. ... Somebody had to cut that bush and they gave it a try. ... Although those efforts ... steered off... along the way Fetchter and others helped thousands (tens of thousands, maybe more) people to understand these BLDC controllers....

and on and on

You saw many folks crop up making this and that.
Value add procedures
Weird little kits

That... was pure R&D
This go is a bit different. Now puzzle pieces are in place, so your task is to find ways to make them fit together.

This is your challenge, to change the world.

From your garage. .. with the help of the internet and Paypal... you CAN impact the way these big companies design these new bikes. You can ... have an impact.

sigh

...

I... Am going to go look for that cable in the garage. I am also going to have a little at the biddy controller I have, see if it is the same brand. I really do not want to hack off all of these connectors, it is... a shame to do so.

I...
Really want to set an example that actually works! and... does not involve buying yet MORE crap off of Amazon (sigh). I realize that.. is... where it is going... but... sigh... There is always some value to getting something working with nothing but what you can find on your garage floor.

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