New and confused want a front hub motor

tomjasz

tomjasz

1 GW
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
5,212
Location
Out riding, MN USA
Well I've been reading off and on for hours everyday for nearly a week. I'm ready to pull the pin but the choices are dizzying. What I have is a Trek Pure DLX. I can pedal about 1-2 miles and then my legs give out. I want to extend my bicycle range. I get tired of slugging the 250cc Vespa scooter around. I'm looking for max range of 10 miles. I'd like to travel at 15-20mph under power. Like many here I live on a budget. So I've been drawn to greenbike kits and their 36v front hub. Perhaps a mid drive but That may be beyond my skill. I think a plug and play front drive may be best to start. I'm concerned about the GBK comments on controller wiring problems. I'd like to deal with a local but there is no one to connect with here and all those I look at in the USA are 3 times the cost. I'm an active Member on modernvespa with excellent karma and ranking and am thick skinned. I can take and respond to honest and direct comments. Gimp jokes are OK too :wink:
I need the best bang for my dorky butt. This means I will be able to ride with my wife on the bike trail and not wear out 1/4 of the way through her ride. My legs are disabled and I am limited in how much time I can exercise them. My balance is difficult making the Trek pedal forward cruiser my ideal fit.

Thanks for the review and advise

Tom
 
 
You have a good plan. I have a mild disability with chronic fatigue. Pedal only, my range is about 2 miles too. But with a motor, if I have saved up energy, I have done 60 miles. On such a good day, maybe I could have pedaled 10 miles, but with no hills.

Does your bike have suspension forks? If so, a rear motor might be best. If you have a rigid fork though, front hubs can be very nice to ride. I did nearly all my commuting before I left work on front hubs.

Though it can be done cheaper, many of us spend between $1000 and $1500 on a really good ebike. Mostly it's the battery, but for really short rides there are cheaper options.

Figure on 1 ah of 36v per mile you ride at 20-25 mph. But you can double that distance if you ride 15 mph or less.
 
You can get a 48V 500W front hub motor for ~$225. For a 10 mile range at 20mph all you would need is 5ah of a 20C rate battery pack. That cost $75-$100 bucks for a 12s rc lipo pack. A charger for such a small pack (222wh) can be had for ~$30 or less. This would get you roughly a top speed of ~23 mph for ~ 6 miles or 10+ miles if you go 20mph or less. if most of your rides is going to be with pedalers you probably won't need to average more than 15mph which would give you a range of ~15 miles. This would put your total cost at about $350 incuuding a cheap volt meter for a fuel gauge. This is based on this kit, which is the ebay seller for yescomusa..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V500W-26-Front-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-Motor-Kit-Cycling-Hub-Conversion-/231175424543
 
999zip999 said:
A good battery is the most important thing. Lot's of junk batteries, that become money down a toilet.
Click to expand...
thanks, and your current favorite?

Tom
 
After too much reading, I like the idea of a stealthy set up and a mini front hub. But whose?
I understand I may not get my max desired speed but they sure do look clean.

Who in the US for a mid range battery?

What rpm should I be considering? Will 328 be to little torque for a 220lb/100kg rider?

Is there one controller that can be used should I increase my battery capacity and upgrade a motor?


Jeez, I'm drowning in thoughts.

Has Greenbike kit worked out controller wiring problems?

Thanks,

Tom

PS Free gardening advice and problem solving for anyone interested.
 
Even though they are based out of Hong Kong, Many members have had great service from Paul at em3ev. - They provide excellent geared hub kits, and you can get the battery there as well. - One Stop Shopping, if you don't mind paying a bit and waiting for shipping.
 
For your battery needs www.ebikes.ca , www.em3ev , Ping. I would get a simple battery that you just plug in and use. They have a bms which has hvc, lvc, and parelle cell balancing. With matching charger. The battery is the heart and muscle. I wouldn't play with the hobby lipo battery as you need a power supply, a charger, alarms for lvc. meters for on the go, and a safe place to charge. Plus breaking down the pack for charging plus more...
Like Dogman said you should have a strong front fork. I like steel as colmoly found on cheap old mountain bikes with room in the triangle for the battery. Specaileze, Trek ect. just look for a good deraileur and a place for your throttle. I found one for 80usd and my new old one for 60usd. On craigslist. Then you can have a back up.
Plus I like rear hubs better. Just my choice as it ' a commuter front or rear.
For a battery 36v15 I need at lease 12ah plus your battery should last longer with lower stress.
Plus em3ev and ebikes.ca have a plug for a C.A. from the controller.
Do you live where the roads are flat or hills ?
 
I live in a flat city in SE Minnesota on the Mississippi River. We are surrounded by 500' hills. But I won't be climbing or riding up any of them.
When I bought my scooter I bought a Vespa, the priciest of choices. Well built very quick, but as it turns out, total overkill. I'm a dork and an aging gimp. I want reliability and extended range. There is nothing or nowhere I want to god more than 5 miles away. BTW I do have a steel fork on my Trek and have adsorbed the fact it needs additional support. Thanks for the ideas. I'm selling off scooter stuff to raise the cash. I don't want to buy bottom feeder stuff and be disappointed over saving a couple of bucks, but like everyone I want fair value.

Thanks all!!!!
 
An 8t mac from em3ev 8t and a nmc 50v 12ah or a 36v15ah. I would get the 2.2-2.3 c.a. With 3 speed switch. And paul's three couse charger. ( Cellman- Paul ) em3ev all the same person. But Justin (ebikes.ca) and his friends are top of the line both will support you.
 
How in the world do you sort out which motor one or rhe other uses?
What is 2.2-2.3 c.a.?
 
tomjasz said:
How in the world do you sort out which motor one or rhe other uses?
Click to expand...

If looking at the EM3ev MAC motors, just know this: The Lower the turns (6T, 8T) the higher to speed, but the lower the torque. - So if you want to go really fast on a dead flat highways, a smaller "T" is best. If you have lots of hills, like I have on my commute, and don't mind going a little slower, you want a high "T" motor, like a 10T or 12T for lots of low-end torque to climb the long, steep hills. Some Direct drive motors have various options with high-speed or high torque as well. Also know that "T" is sometimes expressed as Kv or RPM's per volt applied. The lower the Kv, the more torque a motor will have for a given voltage. The Higher the Kv, the faster the speed on the top end. - And then some motors just list the RPM at a given voltage. In this case you can determine the Kv by dividing unloaded RPM by the voltage. - THEN you need to know how that relates to your wheel diameter, because the exact same motor in a 26" wheel will perform MUCH differently in a 20" wheel, simply because of the diameter difference - which is basically another gear reduction.

The bottom line is you need to figure out how much torque and speed you want from your motor, and what size wheel you will be running. (Most Mountain bikes use a 26" Wheel, and most pre-assembled kits will be mounted in a 26" Wheel.)

tomjasz said:
What is 2.2-2.3 c.a.?
Click to expand...

Cycle Analyst version 2.2 or version 2.3 as seen here: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst.html - It's basically a speedometer & Battery gauge.
 
teslanv said:
tomjasz said:
How in the world do you sort out which motor one or rhe other uses?
Click to expand...

If looking at the EM3ev MAC motors, just know this: The Lower the turns (6T, 8T) the higher to speed, but the lower the torque. - So if you want to go really fast on a dead flat highways, a smaller "T" is best. If you have lots of hills, like I have on my commute, and don't mind going a little slower, you want a high "T" motor, like a 10T or 12T for lots of low-end torque to climb the long, steep hills. Some Direct drive motors have various options with high-speed or high torque as well. Also know that "T" is sometimes expressed as Kv or RPM's per volt applied. The lower the Kv, the more torque a motor will have for a given voltage. The Higher the Kv, the faster the speed on the top end. - And then some motors just list the RPM at a given voltage. In this case you can determine the Kv by dividing unloaded RPM by the voltage. - THEN you need to know how that relates to your wheel diameter, because the exact same motor in a 26" wheel will perform MUCH differently in a 20" wheel, simply because of the diameter difference - which is basically another gear reduction.

The bottom line is you need to figure out how much torque and speed you want from your motor, and what size wheel you will be running. (Most Mountain bikes use a 26" Wheel, and most pre-assembled kits will be mounted in a 26" Wheel.)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation ... nice and clear.

Andrew
 
From cellman, thoughts?

1 x 36V Samsung Frame Mounted Pack (10.25-16.5Ah)
1 x Aluminium Case Charger 29.4V 7A,7S Li Ion/NCM (with Switch)
1 x Mac 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit

Sub-Total: $796.00
Battery - Fed Zone 1/2 (Weight: 15.20kg): $227.50
Total:
 

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tomjasz said:
What rpm should I be considering? Will 328 be to little torque for a 220lb/100kg rider?

Is there one controller that can be used should I increase my battery capacity and upgrade a motor?
Click to expand...

The 328 rpm motor in a 26" wheel will be too inefficient and not enough power for your weight. the 201 rpm would be OK, but 15mph is about top whack.

When you build from a kit, there's nearly always soldering and wiring to do, and a bit of DIY to get the stuff installed. You often have to file out your drop-outs to fit a front motor, and then, depending what forks you have, there's other hidden problems. It's easier to fit a mid-drive motor like he Bafang BBS01 as long as you have the right tools. You need a crank puller and a BB tool. If you don't have a cartridge type BB, you don't need a BB tool:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bike-Bicycle-Crank-Wheel-Puller-Repair-Remover-Extractor-Bottom-Bracket-Tool-Set-/310839684203?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Cycling_BikeLocks_SR&hash=item485f7d2c6b

You'll find those on your own Ebay. There's some nice Youtube videos on how to fit it. Here's a German one. The pictures show what's involved. The reason I recommend this kit is because it's plug and play. You only have to get a battery. I understand what the others say about batteries, but for a 250w system, they're relatively cheap, and should last at least a couple of years. A bottle or rack battery would go nicely with that motor, which you can get from BMSBattery, Greenbikekit or Elifebike or anywhere else:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irmyv9G9WyU
 
Hard to beat the buy it all from cellman plan.

It won't really be stealth, but it doesn't matter. People that actually notice your front hub, like 2% of people, will just ask where you found the drum brake wheel.

10t mac and the 48v battery is REALLY popular. You don't plan on riding far, but you will.
 
d8veh said:
It's easier to fit a mid-drive motor like he Bafang BBS01 as long as you have the right tools. You need a crank puller and a BB tool. If you don't have a cartridge type BB, you don't need a BB tool:
Click to expand...
50 years ago, in my misguided yoot I fancied myself a bike mechanic. So I'm onboard understanding the tools needed. However, is it REALLY that easy? THAT would be sweet and I really like the idea of not having a front hub and keeping my Sturmey Archer 3 SPD avoiding a rear hub adventure. Just when I think I'm done more reading.

Thanks!

Tom
 
tomjasz said:
50 years ago, in my misguided yoot I fancied myself a bike mechanic. So I'm onboard understanding the tools needed. However, is it REALLY that easy? THAT would be sweet and I really like the idea of not having a front hub and keeping my Sturmey Archer 3 SPD avoiding a rear hub adventure. Just when I think I'm done more reading.

Thanks!

Tom
Click to expand...
I installed the BBS02 on my bike for my first ebike project, and I dare say it was EASIER that a hub install. - And for the record, I just took my bike to my LBS and had them pull the bottom bracket. - Saved myself the tool purchase the first time. They did it in about 5 minutes.
 
Tomjasz;

If you are looking for a front wheel drive, that goes between 15-20mph, and is very simple to install. Try the Hill topper from clean Republic. this was my 1st ebike conversion, 3 years ago, since then I have built 5 more for a total of 6, of various designs and confiquation. I still use this 1st ebike for commuting and fun rides. cost is $399 and comes with lead acid batteries, not really that bad but I got to ride my bike the next day. since then, after 4 months, I have gone to Lifepo4, for about a year, then onward to LIPO, when remains for the last year and half. total assembly takes about 10 minutes, in my case it was 1/2 hour, because I had to enlarge the dropouts. the motor is a low cost Bafang, a little controller, I believe about 15a. It cam with 2 SLA bateries, hooked in series to give 24v. I later added a 3rd for 36v. The controller can take up to 50v. next upgrade was 12s Lifepo4 for about 42v at 10a. this cut half the weight of the batteries. finally I got the guts to tried Lipo and have a 12s setup for around 49v and 11a. this was still more additional weight loss on the batteries. this is where it remain at moment. I usually carry 2 separate packs of (4 6s Lipos batteries 2 paralel and then series)for about 49v and 10a), which give me a 20 mile round trip commute with plenty juice leftover.

here is link for that motor conversion and a video of the actual install.

http://www.electric-bike-kit.com/hill-topper.aspx

you don't have to go the lead acid way, for a little more you can get lithium power. When I order, there was no choice on batteries, only lead acid was available.... enjoy.....Jerry
 
Fitting a front hub-motor, there's lots of hidden dangers. It's not so bad with a 250w one, but a 500w MAC shouldn't b attempted unless you know what you're doing. If you went that route, it'll probably end in tears. Also, if you have suspension forks, it would spoil their function due to the large unsprung mass. If you want definitely want a 500w hub-motor, it's much safer to fit it on the rear and put up with sorting out the gear arrangement.

The BBS01 or BBS02 really is easy to fit for a noob. It's all plug-and-play apart from the battery connection, which you have to do yourself. One of those frame-mounted pod batteries from Em3ev would be a perfect partner for the 250w or 350w version. Any bottle battery would work with the 250w one.
 
chisixer6 said:
Tomjasz;
Try the Hill topper from clean Republic. this was my 1st ebike conversion, 3 years ago, since then I have built 5 more for a total of 6, of various designs and confiquation. I still use this 1st ebike for commuting and fun rides. cost is $399 and comes with lead acid batteries, not really that bad but I got to ride my bike the next day. since then, after 4 months, I have gone to Lifepo4, for about a year, then onward to LIPO,
Click to expand...
What is the downside of this setup? I did notice they write "1-2 years of battery life". :shock: The reviews here are mixed as hell, but then there are lots of apposing opinions throughout this forum!
 
d8veh said:
The BBS01 or BBS02 really is easy to fit for a noob. It's all plug-and-play apart from the battery connection, which you have to do yourself. One of those frame-mounted pod batteries from Em3ev would be a perfect partner for the 250w or 350w version. Any bottle battery would work with the 250w one.
Click to expand...
I'm seriously looking at this option. It seems almost to good to be true.
 
You will be unimpressed with a SLA battery.

Get a Ping LiFePO4 or NCM triangle from em3ev. - The battery is the most important part of the ebike experience.

With So many options and opinions on kits, it's hard for a beginner to know what to pick. I had the same problem and waffled for over a month before pulling the trigger. I can only tell you that I am quite pleased with my Bafang Mid Drive. It has exceeded all of my expectations and was surprisingly easy to install.
 
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