New Crystalyte Motor series (HT35 / HS35 and HT24 / HS24)

[John in CR]

270 euros for a $100 hubmotor is absurd.

 

[Green Machine]

270 euros for a $100 hubmotor is absurd.

Europe taxes the hell out of chinese imports like they should do.

Its because europe does not have free trade agreement with china like we do.


Hey wait a minute...that was mexico...when did we ever agree to free trade agreement with china??

 

[nicobie]

As in most things mechanical It just took some dicking around but I finally got the cover off.

As you can see the windings are fried. 2 out of the 3 phase wires have shorts to the stator. It looks like I got a dud. I wonder if there was a small short from the start and that is what caused it to make those horrible noises? Notice that only one segment of the windings are really black.

I was using a new Lyen 12 fet 4110 controller that was set for 45 battery amps and my CA was showing about 47a when it blew and at 90v I don't think I was shoving too many watts through it. I was on flat ground and had less than 1.5 miles on it.

I figure I can't just buy a stator so it looks like I am in the market for a new motor (again). I really want another HT35 as I think It will be perfect for my use. If the one I melted ran as good as it did, I wonder what one that was put together properly would be like? I am going to get on my knees and grovel at methods feet and beg for him to sell me another one

In case anybody is interested 9x7 is written on the stator. So it looks like the HT35 is a 9x7 wind.

Hyena: I measured the phase wires and they were .072" which is exactly 13g

 

[electricwheels.de]

Well my HS3540 does not make any resonating sound, in fact i have to struggle to hear any operating noise on my motor. Maybe its the meger 20amps at 36v that i am currently running it on but either way, its practically silent, my freewheel makes more noise to be honest.
moment its a custom batch order for sensored ones i believe.

The new HT & HS motors remind me of riding a tram ...

Are we talking about the same hub ? I guess sensored and sensorless setups may have different sound level/pattern but this much different ? Or is it a QC problem ?

G'day

I first tried the original HS 3450 with the original 25A sensorless Controller (after I had to fix the LED and rewire the 6-pin JST to a 4-pin JST to fit the 'old' Crystalyte throttle grip. The 2 other wires I connected to a simple ON/OFF switch).

The noise was somewhat audible, in any case louder than the 40x motors (which is quiet). The speed I reached I don't know, as the CA couldn't be connected .

After the Hallies were put in, I tested the Motor with a 72V/35A setup. No doubt, the Hallies made the motor louder, but it also could have been the controller as well. Maybe the position of the Hallies in the stator is somewhat 'out of tune', timingwise of sort. Could that make the phases 'fire' too soon or too late

The speed I reached was about 60+kmh, but my battery hasn't got the neccessary 'C' rating, and the system cuts out everytime the Voltage drops below some set limit .

But yes, noise with hall sensors and Crystalyte controller is definitely louder, like I said, a bit like riding a tram.
But hey, after a while you get used to it at low speeds, when you hit the higher speed range, the wind noise takes over anyway .

 

[electricwheels.de]

As you can see the windings are fried. 2 out of the 3 phase wires have shorts to the stator. It looks like I got a dud. I wonder if there was a small short from the start and that is what caused it to make those horrible noises? Notice that only one segment of the windings are really black.

Hmmh, the windings fried...
Guess I was wrong when said I the wires might have shortcircuited @ the entry point of the hub .

 

[itselectric]

Yes maybe inflation got to do with it, but 50 euro is a big raise for the end user.

C E was putting a stronger ( in terms of output ) and equally light motor in the pricerange of an 4XX series that was probably for them like sitting on the branch they were sawing off, they just put the price nicely between 4XX and 5XXX serie so to give both a chance to sell out ( if they gonna take them out of production which I doubt )

I think the controllers and especially the batteries they offer are far too expensive, and now the motors are scratching the pain threshold too... ( of some wallets I mean )

Yep speed will cost you, torque is free, same motor, different KV, ( it rhymes ) I think this is more like an ordinairy price raise instead of inflation, material cost is about the same probably for both the HT and HS, just get the HT and push 100 volt X 100 amps through it, that´ll teach ´em

TruusjeKMX

TruusjeKMX:

What and who is C E?
I don't know about Europe pricing, but the pricing for HS/HT motor here in North America is price as 4xx motor, and cheaper then the 5xx. I like to re-confirm the raise cost is largely due to material cost increase. Because I deal with multiple manufacturers, they all tell me the same thing story, magnet cost had jump 25 - 40%, China labor cost also on the raise, because the workers are demanding higher salary for improve living.

Crystalyte is phase out all 4xx and 5xx motors. And any custom motors such single axle, dual winding, etc..are also discontinue. You can get it custom make, but in order of 500.

Yes, i agree with Crystalyte controller and battery are expensive. That is why infineon type of controller are popular in E.S. forum.

Ken

 

[theRealFury]

What and who is C E?

I Believe he is referring to Crystalyte Europe Ken :wink:

 

[Hyena]

In regard to the noise issue, I just took my sensored HS3540 for a test run on 18S lipo and it was pretty much exactly the same noise level as my 9C motors.

I did however experience a juddering on full throttle acceleration with the crystalyte 72v 40a 12 fet controller (sensored). On full throttle acceleration there were a few split seconds here and there of a grunty sort of vibration, like you get with a crook hall but only a hint of it that passed. It's the same sort of thing I got from sensorless controllers at high voltage but this is sensored. Other than that it went pretty well and even on 40 amps it went respectably. Once I bump that up to 80 and sort out this juddering issue I'll be in business.

Initial acceleration is very snappy off the line, I nearly plowed into my garage door giving it the same amount of throttle as I do to slowly move off on my 9C. I suspect this is more a controller / throttle issue though

 

[Bazaki]

Great motor !





Nothing but good stuff about the new HS, I almost finished the above EBIKE, with 18s Lipo set at 80 amp at the controller and it is amazing fast !
My friend has a x5305 with 24s lipo 80 amp and is exactly as fast as my x5304 with 80 amp. ( from 0-60 )

But today we did another drag race with the new Ebike with the HS motor and the HS is much faster, also from a dead stop and everything above, even though my friend runs at 100v 80 amp.

It is also is much more quiet, no resonance at any speed, and no howling at acceleration, it's much lighter and smaller and even faster. So only positive things untill now.

This week I will test the HT version also.

 

[nicobie]

hey Bazaki,

Is it one with halls and a real 35mm stator?

I think the one I fried was defective from the git go. That's why it was making weird noises for the 1.5 miles it held together. Amazing though, it still ran stronger than my BMCv2 s :?

 

[Bazaki]

I didn't measure the stator, it is much smaller then the X5 Hub I can tell.
First I ran the motor with a 12 fet 50 Amp 70v but because of the timing errors I did install hall sensors myself, I will install hall sensors to all of my 10x HS/HS motos Hall sensors so I can run them all at 80 Amp.

The 13 AWG phase wires at the HS/HT motor is something I don't like but it seems they have no problems with 80 amp.

 

[mr.electric]

The 13 AWG phase wires at the HS/HT motor is something I don't like but it seems they have no problems with 80 amp.

I was a bit disappointed with the phase wires too

First I ran the motor with a 12 fet 50 Amp 70v but because of the timing errors

Did you get timing errors with a Lyen or Crystalite controller. I got timing issues on an HS 35 with Lyen 12 fet extreme controller at 48v at all current settings (using CA to limit current) annoying issue for an otherwise well behaved set up.

 

[Bazaki]

With a lyen controller indeed, due to the timing errors my dropout is became wider, each timingerror is torque in the wrong direction, much stronger then some regen braking.

 

[pchen92]

I have the HS35 with a 12 fets 72V Lyen controller and it works really good. But that's not the same version as he advertises on the forum. It's a special version at 139$ (ask him).

 

[mr.electric]

I have the HS35 with a 12 fets 72V Lyen controller and it works really good. But that's not the same version as he advertises on the forum. It's a special version at 139$ (ask him).

I will ask. I actually asked him about the issue and he only recommended trying different settings. I was building the bike for Extreme Green. I imagine Lyen will fix the issue soon enough or maybe release a software update that fixes the issue.

 

[Doctorbass]

I had my friend Sylvain that came yesterday for the installatin of 3 little Hall sensor in his rear HT motor to match with a 18 fets sensored controller.

To make a good job it took me around 2.5h and i used teflon wires for the hall sensor.

Something i found interesting is that we dont really need to pull completly the stator from the magnet ring!.. if you have a puller, just pull the stator enough to have just enough space to have acces to the 3 little holes. that will avoid you teh complicate and risky step of re-inserting the stator into the magnet ring :wink:

BTW.. DONT FORGET!!.. as opposite to the X5 motor, the hall sensor location are on the same side as the phase wire are!

I succeded to be able to fit the 3 wire of each hal UNDER the winding and i had to bend at 90 degree the legs of each hall. I have cuted them to around 4mm and soldered the wires and have put shrink tube on them BEFORE to insert them i the stator holes. I used the 3M scotchweld epoxy DP420 and i cleaned perfectly with iso alcohol the 3 holes for teh hall and the halls itself before to glue them.

Teflon wire can resist at up to 260 celsius.. so that will prevent any short and hall problem at high power.

What i found great is the perfect fit of the holes for the hall.
what i found disapointing is the poor machining of the axel groove for the phase wires.. the axel look like cheaper than on the X5... and the groove is narrower on the HT motor.

fiting the 3 phase stock wire plus the 5 hall sensor wires was not easy but with some grease on them before to insert the bearing on the side cover it really helped.

I finished and closed the motor and tested it... It worked like a charm :wink:

My friend is happy now.

If i dont forget, i'll post pictures of the installation tonight.

 

[electricwheels.de]

To make a good job it took me around 2.5h ...

Yep, 2.5 hrs + sounds about right.

BTW.. DONT FORGET!!.. as opposite to the X5 motor, the hall sensor locations are on the same side as the phase wires are!

Not with my stators. Got 6 of them open here, they are all on the opposite side.
Could it be that there are 2 types of stators made by Crystalyte?

What i found great is the perfect fit of the holes for the hall.

They do, except that centre one is directly on a groove. You have to shorten the bamboo stick, best done by pushing it out from the opposite side, clip some 4-5mm off and then pushing it back in again.
Because there is no solid steel under the hall sensor body, it may tilt or slide back away from the stator diameter surface.

what i found disapointing is the poor machining of the axel groove for the phase wires.. the axel look like cheaper than on the X5... and the groove is narrower on the HT motor.

The axle is cheap crap . We are thinking of designing and making a 8) better one.

fitting the 3 phase stock wire plus the 5 hall sensor wires was not easy but with some grease on them before to insert the bearing on the side cover it really helped.

...and will make it easier for the seal lip to slide across the wires
How then are you going to avoid water entering the channel to get into your motor???


And if you ever think of having your side covers anodised - DON'T!!!
They are going to look real shitty afterwards

 

[electricwheels.de]

Ah, yes, maybe matt black side covers don't look too bad...





Now, just add the axle/stator and we've got something

 

[Bazaki]

Looks nice !

My HS motors also have the hall sensors to the opposite of the phase wires.

This is the part I don't like, a very sharp edge at the shaft, almost no space for hall sensor wires,just enough for the litlle phasewires, and the rubber seal is very tight, using a thick wire for the hall sensors will result in bad connection I am afraid.

Electricwheels, did you also consider to remove the rubber seal ? The X5 hub also didn't have it.


Besides all this, the motor performs very very well !

 

[electricwheels.de]

G'day,

Yep, I got rid of the seal. Bored the hole (dia 25mm) through to make room for our cable guide, dia 24mm. Fill the outer space with CRC Super Adhesive Grease and the inner space (the cable channel) with Gasket compound (Würth Kleb & Dicht - stick & seal). That'll keep the unwanted liquids out.

Now tell me, how are you going to get those wires from the hall sensors through the winding loops ???

 

[Bazaki]

I glued the wires of the hall sensors very thight to windings, then through the back of the stator the 5 hall wires will come out.

Have you got another solution ?

 

[electricwheels.de]

Threaded with 28AWG Spec 44 wire . Here shown potted but not shaped yet.

 

[Tincan]

Call me silly, but the windings heating up could quite easily melt the hall wires...

 

[electricwheels.de]

Call me silly, but the windings heating up could quite easily melt the hall wires...

Spec 44 wire is rated to 150°C and has other quite outstanding properties - read:
http://www.strancoproducts.com/downloads/SPEC%2044%20WIRE.pdf

But would it really make a difference if you run your wires through the inside or along the outside of the windings?
Crystalyte runs these wires also around the inside of the windings :wink: .

 

[Hyena]

So is anyone else aware that the sensored motors are now going to be reduced to 32mm ?
In my last email from Kenny he lists sensorless Hx35s but the sensored motors only have 32mm stators.
Why is it so hard to fit halls to the 35mm stator ????