New Panasonic Cell ncr18650bd 3200mah
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okashira said:
flathill said:
what is the actual source of this Panasonic information about chemistry of PF being essentially different from PD ?
I found only assertions out of the blue from sellers and in forums (which seem to copy from each other).
Documents found with Panasonic mark so far don't tell about chemistry (change) at all - just a general document about the NCR product line declares them all as "NNP based", "_Nickel Oxide Based _New _Platform (NNP)" , "The new Nickel positive electrode excels in durability in actual use and charge retention" .
The pics "PF.PNG" and "spec.PNG" just show that the PF has all specs exactly the same as PD up to the last digit, the charge curve is same up to 4.2V, (and the discharge curve shapes are quite same on test sites, usual capacity spread and charge SoC inaccuracy taken into account). And the PD is removed from Panasonic site, replaced by PF.
Just the CID fuse of the PF trips very early upon overcharge, current jumps to zero and voltage to power-supply-max at 5V/50°C, which of course results in less temperature increase. All this doesn't indicate so far fundamentally different chemistry. Just a better overvoltage/overtemperature fuse mechanism? And perhaps minor improvements regarding durability.
Can properties and curves be so exactly same when the chemistry changes fully?
Is there any reliable source info which shows, that there are really 2 essentially different chemistries around within the Panasonic NCR line?
okashira
10 kW
x-speed said:
I was just thinking about this yesterday. The PF and PD discharge curves are remarkably similar. And the rest of their specs. The lower performance of the PF compared to the PD at high current could be explained by the addition of this fuse you refer to.
EDIT: well, tests show the PF outperforms at high amps, (10A) PD slighly outperforms at 3A and they are very similar at low current (0.2A)
WTFknows.
This whole "B grade A grade" BS really makes comparisons difficult
Generally Panasonic reserves their "NNP" terminology for NCA chemistry cells. Do you have a link to this document?
okashira
10 kW
member fellow says he discharged his PF's to 0V, kept them there for a week, and they came back OK.
Surely NCA can't handle that?
Surely NCA can't handle that?
okashira
10 kW
OK, I went and looked through everything again. (Ugh..)riba2233 said:
It looks like you are right.
Here is a summary:
-The BE has triangle top
-The BD has round top
-The Keeppower IMR 3200 has triangle top (and goes toe to toe with the PF at 10A!)
-The Efest IMR 3100 has triangle top
-Dampfakkus calls the BE "Economy version of B" (no source)
-Dampfakkus tests show Efest IMR and Keepower IMR beating BD in discharge curves
-Tesla Model S85 cells have triangle top (and are used at up to 10A-22A in 4s-5s bursts depending on model)
-HJK Reviews (more reliable then Damp) Show Efest IMR and Keepower IMR perform very similar
-HJK has not reviewed the BD or BE directly
-Keeppower NON IMR 3200 protected cell is BE (cell was unwrapped)
-Noone has unwrapped the Keepower or Efest IMR, but Dampfakkus has a really crappy picture showing the BE next to the Efest.
Again, all the specs (leaked, fake, vendor created, whatever) show the BE as cheaper and low current and BD more expensive high current.
There is also flathill's point on chemistry difference (BD could be more durable at high current)
I was thinking about price, maybe the BE is cheaper because they make large quantities for tesla. I mean the quantity is the main factor for defining price of cell.
In that case, BE should be NCA. I also have one BE at home, and I can test up to 5 A discharge and I can plot graph. I would like to order BD to compare, but I don't know where can I get one for reasonable money and also be sure that it's not fake. BD could be nmc, right?
In that case, BE should be NCA. I also have one BE at home, and I can test up to 5 A discharge and I can plot graph. I would like to order BD to compare, but I don't know where can I get one for reasonable money and also be sure that it's not fake. BD could be nmc, right?
okashira
10 kW
I don't know. If it turns out that PF is NCA, maybe Panasonic doesn't make any NMC at all.
I would trust fast-tech or mountain electronics ?
I have two BE's on the way from fast-tech, along with two PF''s
But the BD is newer then the BE (I think) why would BD even exist if it was more expensive and inferior. Doesnt make sense.
Could be the BE's we can buy are Tesla Rejects, which is why they are cheap (lol I say this and Tesla pays $2/cell. :x :x :x :x (they probably reject alot of cells)
Or, the BD has some other magic...
I would trust fast-tech or mountain electronics ?
I have two BE's on the way from fast-tech, along with two PF''s
But the BD is newer then the BE (I think) why would BD even exist if it was more expensive and inferior. Doesnt make sense.
Could be the BE's we can buy are Tesla Rejects, which is why they are cheap (lol I say this and Tesla pays $2/cell. :x :x :x :x (they probably reject alot of cells)
Or, the BD has some other magic...
I was thinking about that to. Maybe they are for some specific application, which require lower operating temps, maybe greater cycle life, maybe they have some EN standards? I really don't know. BE could really be rejects. They are the only cell (not counting outdated PDs) that have different case (different top and bottom, bottom is specific for tesla's patent, it can also be used as vent).
Nmc cells should be cg and ch, tesla used cg in roadster, but I don't know if panasonic still makes them. I know you can still buy cg. There are also some high output models, like cgr18650k and ka, maybe they are nmc
Just found, cgr18650cg is nmc:
https://www.google.hr/url?q=http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/productdata/Countries/us/ba_panasonicli-ion2.9ah_us_eng_v1.pdf&sa=U&ei=ybZvVMHKCtXvaIC5gbAE&ved=0CB8QFjAEOAo&sig2=lpRU016d0YPpwxdvAY3p0w&usg=AFQjCNFjawkRqhfD_Weiqw3tGgkKJNKv9w
Nmc cells should be cg and ch, tesla used cg in roadster, but I don't know if panasonic still makes them. I know you can still buy cg. There are also some high output models, like cgr18650k and ka, maybe they are nmc
Just found, cgr18650cg is nmc:
https://www.google.hr/url?q=http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/environment/productdata/Countries/us/ba_panasonicli-ion2.9ah_us_eng_v1.pdf&sa=U&ei=ybZvVMHKCtXvaIC5gbAE&ved=0CB8QFjAEOAo&sig2=lpRU016d0YPpwxdvAY3p0w&usg=AFQjCNFjawkRqhfD_Weiqw3tGgkKJNKv9w
Yup the Tesla Model S is very likely the BE cell. That is the conclusion I came to in August on the Tesla forum before I got confused.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack/page11
2014-08-24, 12:02 AM #102
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"Can you get a picture of the negative terminal of an individual cell?
The Rav4EV uses the 2900 mAh NCR18650PD with a C shaped vent designed to break the bond wire on the terminal when it opens. The C shaped vent is pictured in the Tesla patent but more recent patents also describe a circle shaped vent.
Panasonic recently released the NCR18650BE cell which is also an NCA cell rated at 2C max just like the PD cell, but rated at 3300 mAh! This cell has the same triangular positive terminal as the PD cell but has a circular vent. No other Panasonic cells besides the PD and BE have negative terminal vents! The nominal voltage of a NCA cell is 3.65V so a 3.3 Ah cell would result in a 85.5 kWh pack
The 3400 mAh NCR18650B is a high energy cell not suitable for EV use. The latest high energy cell is the NCR18650G rated at 3600 mAh. Neither of these cells has the Tesla vent on the neg terminal."
As you can tell I am obsessed with knowing which cell the Model S uses. It could also be custom
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack/page11
2014-08-24, 12:02 AM #102
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"Can you get a picture of the negative terminal of an individual cell?
The Rav4EV uses the 2900 mAh NCR18650PD with a C shaped vent designed to break the bond wire on the terminal when it opens. The C shaped vent is pictured in the Tesla patent but more recent patents also describe a circle shaped vent.
Panasonic recently released the NCR18650BE cell which is also an NCA cell rated at 2C max just like the PD cell, but rated at 3300 mAh! This cell has the same triangular positive terminal as the PD cell but has a circular vent. No other Panasonic cells besides the PD and BE have negative terminal vents! The nominal voltage of a NCA cell is 3.65V so a 3.3 Ah cell would result in a 85.5 kWh pack
The 3400 mAh NCR18650B is a high energy cell not suitable for EV use. The latest high energy cell is the NCR18650G rated at 3600 mAh. Neither of these cells has the Tesla vent on the neg terminal."
As you can tell I am obsessed with knowing which cell the Model S uses. It could also be custom
okashira
10 kW
So they at least at some point made NMC cells, but perhaps moved away from them after tesla related calandar life research.
I thought the Roadster used NCO cells, though. (A Type)
I thought the Roadster used NCO cells, though. (A Type)
okashira
10 kW
flathill said:
Before finding this thread, I had all but chosen the BE as my e-bike cell. :-D
I am still interested in getting a Model S / Pack. I wonder how much interest there would be on this forum to buy cells.
A group buy would be hard, as I have no reputation here. But I have the capital to just buy a car/pack and sell them if I can make a small profit for my labor.
I still can't figure out why the BD would be more expensive. Maybe because they make a shit ton of Tesla cells, so the market is flooded with B grade BE cells? That would be cool.
I'm go on ebay and message all sellers of Tesla parts within a 100 miles of SF. I ask if they are parting out the complete car and if they have a battery (damaged or not). One told me the car didn't come with battery (?!) and the other told me they recycled it because it was damaged....we need to catch them early. A lot of cars are being totaled for having a slight bend in the rear of the battery pack. This is because the tow truck driver can't figure out how to disable the electronic parking brake and put it in tow mode. When the drag the car up and the ramp with the rear wheels locked it can bend the rear of the battery frame somehow. Telsa may have already reinforced this area I'm guessing
I'm go on ebay and message all sellers of Tesla parts within a 100 miles of SF. I ask if they are parting out the complete car and if they have a battery (damaged or not). One told me the car didn't come with battery (?!) and the other told me they recycled it because it was damaged....we need to catch them early. A lot of cars are being totaled for having a slight bend in the rear of the battery pack. This is because the tow truck driver can't figure out how to disable the electronic parking brake and put it in tow mode. When the drag the car up and the ramp with the rear wheels locked it can bend the rear of the battery frame somehow. Telsa may have already reinforced this area I'm guessing
Cephalotus
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This document (from Panasonic?) explains the difference between NCR18650PD and NCR18650PF
http://akkuplus.de/mediafiles//Datenblatt/Panasonic/Panasonic_NCR18650PF.pdf
To me all electrical specs look 100% identical, so I assume their chemistry is the same. There is a different CID and different style of vents.
best regards
http://akkuplus.de/mediafiles//Datenblatt/Panasonic/Panasonic_NCR18650PF.pdf
To me all electrical specs look 100% identical, so I assume their chemistry is the same. There is a different CID and different style of vents.
best regards
Hillhater
100 TW
Only person i know who managed to buy a wrecked Mod S, paid over $40k for it ! and Tesla are actively making it hard for people to reuse parts,..especially the electronics and drive components which many believe Tesla can disable remotely. !okashira said:
So that may be a very expensive way af getting a few thousand used cells.
Oh yes, and dismantling the packs into small modules ( they are 74P groups) has also proved to be very hard work !
okashira
10 kW
Cephalotus said:
Thanks for sharing that. It is funny I bought 2 BE's and 2 PF's off fast-tech a week ago and it looks like I picked the right cells to buy.
I will compare their performance when they come in.
okashira
10 kW
Looking at the discharge graph in the OP of this thread..
The BD outperforms the BE in total energy to 2.8v discharge compared to HJK's discharge tests, at least in this case ...
There is slightly more mah-h at 2.8V at the 9A discharge compared to the 10A of HJK
I am temped to just order some from fast-tech and compare to the BE's coming.
The BD outperforms the BE in total energy to 2.8v discharge compared to HJK's discharge tests, at least in this case ...
There is slightly more mah-h at 2.8V at the 9A discharge compared to the 10A of HJK
I am temped to just order some from fast-tech and compare to the BE's coming.
okashira
10 kW
No idea.
Already ordered some...
I have 2 PF's, 8 BE's and 2 BD's coming.
THere is a coupon code if you want 2 batts. google it... can't remember exactly. 5% off
shipping takes weeks
Already ordered some...
I have 2 PF's, 8 BE's and 2 BD's coming.
THere is a coupon code if you want 2 batts. google it... can't remember exactly. 5% off
shipping takes weeks
piwhy
100 mW
I ordered few weeks ago from a "main" battery supplier on Alibaba different Panasonic NCR18650(A,B,BE,BD,PF) cells to make different tests on it and try to feel real differences between all these cells.
On first cycles, each cells seems to be compliant with their specs but I already made hundred of cycles on BD and BE cells and I'm a bit disappointed about the capacity drop over cycles @1C charge/1C discharge... I'm currently running the same cycles @ 0.5C charge/discharge, to compare.
These, are supposed to be "genuine" Panasonic cells, but as always on cells market, it's as playing russian roulette.
I will post my results soon but I will be pleased to compare with your results on cells from an other supplier.
On first cycles, each cells seems to be compliant with their specs but I already made hundred of cycles on BD and BE cells and I'm a bit disappointed about the capacity drop over cycles @1C charge/1C discharge... I'm currently running the same cycles @ 0.5C charge/discharge, to compare.
These, are supposed to be "genuine" Panasonic cells, but as always on cells market, it's as playing russian roulette.
I will post my results soon but I will be pleased to compare with your results on cells from an other supplier.
okashira
10 kW
piwhy said:
Hi there... I have a couple comments.
First, 1C is simply too fast to charge any of the Panasonic NCA chemistry cells, period. They should be charged at 0.5C max if you want a fast charge and keep to 0.3C OR LESS for normal charging to extend life. Slower the better. I fully intend to make my pack charge in 5-6 hour normally.
It is true that Tesla charges their *grade A* NCA cells with as much as 1.4C, however they do it under very specific conditions and do NOT follow a CC/CV charging regimen. Their charge rate quickly tapers even before 4.0 V is achieved.
Second, you might as well assume your cells are either counterfeit or just trash grade "F" cells since they came from Alibaba. Fasttech, mountain electronics, and a couple other vendors are more reliable. You will also find they are more expensive then an Alibaba seller. :wink:
okashira said:
Yes very small variations may be usual production spread, measurement/charge uncertainties, age.... coffee cup reading.
So PF is most likely still the same NNP chemistry with small fuse improvements etc.
Documents about the Panasonic NNP / NCR NiCoAl evolution:
http://www.embedded-world.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/batterie2011/Sonnemann_Panasonic.pdf (many details)
http://www.yeint.fi/pr/pr/files/li_ion_akut.pdf
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE17.pdf
Thus Nickel is the main key to these new high cap frontiers ("Solid Solution among LiNiO2 enables High Capacity"). LG Chem names the chemistry of similar types (LG MH1, LG HE2) as "Ni-rich".
And a so called HRL (heat resistance layer) - in Panasonic wording - was the main key to enable such high energy densities for safe commercial use. Al adds to thermal safety, and Co as before to durability.
After all the precise chemistries and layering details are rather complicated and advanced today.
The new early CID fuse tripping feature may be a chemical which produces lot of gas beyond 4.5v or so quickly raising the pressure which trips the CID early; not consuming significant extra space.
The new NCR18650BF seems to be the first cell which has now a improvement from the plain graphite anode by adding SiO - as announced in that 2011 document. A real improvement of the NCR B high cap cell.
okashira said:
Well, overdischarge below 2V mainly attacks the Graphite anode, not so much the (LiCo, LiMn, NMC, NCA..) cathode: When all Li is gone out of the graphite, the graphite contacting metal will be oxidized -> increase of Ri, spoiling of electrolyte, thus increase of future self-discharge, later deposition of the dissolved metal and formation of dendrites, increased danger of internal shurtcuts even if the cell can be recharge firstly, ... Possible improvements of stability here (Does the PD vs PF really not "survive" with similar rates?) may be independent of cathode questions. Cathode is more exposed to stress upon overcharge and high discharge currents.
Yet its generally not allowed officially to recharge LiIon's from below 2V. Valid BMS'es shall go into permanent failure state once a cell is below 2.0v, not allowing recharge. For some cells "pre-charge" at low currents is allowed from 2.0v .. 2.5v (with subsequent self-discharge test).
The rather cheap NCR18650BE "3200mAh" is not a high drain cell as the "10A" NCR BD (subject of this thread) is. The BE is not even rated as 2C cell from Panasonic/Sanyo, but only 3.636A (1.2C), though R-AC 40mOhm is similar to NCR B:
Maybe kind of sort out's.
Maybe kind of sort out's.
okashira
10 kW
x-speed said:
Cmon man... we have already been through this...
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