New Project " help Please" Honda st1300 Conversion

[technotony007]

I have had a bright idea to build my myself an electric PAN EURO ST1300. ( convert from a petrol engine)

I initial intension is to make the bike from the outside look normal / standard . except for the lack of exhausts.

after doing some research , I found the website : www.goldenmotor.com. which seems to have all the necessary bits , if I based this on a 20kw BLDC motor. This seemed like a one stop shop for me , and all I need then was the batteries. ( and to work out , how many I needed.)

the cost looks to be around $2500 USD , before I source the batteries.

As I am mech engineer by trade , the mechanical side I have covered with little cost.

My thoughts briefly on the design overall are:

Utilise gearbox and clutch off engine, remove cylinder heads and barrels , and somehow graft on a suitable size electric motor. onto the flywheel ,therefore I can still use the gearbox , clutch and drive train.
remove the exhaust and headers, fuel system.
Fit the controller unit and junction boxes to the underside of tank.
Utilise panniers area for batteries and keep the COG low down. ( potential of 20kg per side.)
Convert the harness to power exiting instruments with the new power source. ( step down transformer ,etc. to match previous battery supply.)
keep the wheels & suspension standard.
keep the Tupperware & fairings as standard as possible.
Keep the suspension as standard ( non ABS.)
redesign the new EV electric motor mounts and couplys accordingly to fit where the alternator used to be.

As I am using the engines mechanics to transmit te power to the rear wheel. I believe I would require the same or similar standard st1300 power to run the engine efficiently.

the standard St1300 engine produces:

Maximum power - Output - Horsepower 118.00 HP (86.1 kW) @ 8000 RPM

Maximum torque 117.00 Nm (11.9 kgf-m or 86.3 ft.lbs) @ 6500 RPM

there is 3 choices of EV motors I have thought about. the first is :



The second is BMW X6 HVH250 hybrid motor (ebay) - 63kw or @ 280 volts dc , max rpm 10600 ( trying to research if feasible, ie what controller , would need , and how many battery's to cover the voltage for 300 miles.)

the third is EV motor 60 kw ( ebay ) , 137nm of torque at 14000 rpm. ( 3 phase , so power would have to huge , so probably this most probably impracticable.) see link below,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EV-MOTOR-60KW-14000RPM-137NM-ELECTRIC-PROJECT-EMRAX-REPLACEMENT/293332459835?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

My electrical knowledge is poor , as mechanics is my thing. some any advice or whether these would be suitable would be greatly appreciated.

my next challenge was the power ( i.e. batteries.) my thoughts from cost , and what's readily available is to use the follow car batteries from a Nissan leaf :

Nissan Leaf Gen2 Module | Lithium | Powerwall | EV | 7.6V | 56.3Ah | 427Wh | eBay


has anyone done this type of thing before ???? ,matching a EV electric motor , grafted onto a deconstructed engine.


any thoughts or idea's would be greatly received.....

regards

tony

 

[c70r]

Interesting bike to convert and can turn out amazing if done well. The large body should allow a lot of battery, essentially a large range.

Anyway, firstly I want to question the decision of choosing to use the gearbox/clutch rather than going for direct drive. Though I have seen projects use the original gearbox, it was mainly due to the motor being used not matching the performance of the original ICE (ie 15kW electric motor in a bike that originally had 40kW). In your case you're looking at electric motors that peak at around 60kW. Yes that is 20kW short of the original ICE power but you'd have more torque than the original ICE at practically all rpms. At that point the gearbox/clutch become an unnecessary burden which will not only reduce acceleration potential but be a component of unnecessary failure.

Secondly, the motors you have listed are good potential candidates but beware that they are high voltage motors. High voltage motors aren't often used in DIY projects for the following reasons, the high voltage battery itself being a danger and secondly the lack of DIY useable controllers (what I mean is that there are plenty of controllers that DIY'ers are using for the 16-30s battery range). Don't forget that the second two motors you listed will require housings etc to be made and are not ready to just be placed in a bike. Either of the last two options would require the making of a reduction gearbox, depending on the top speed you desire and tire diameter so your wheel rpm will be somewhere in the range of 3000-7000rpm so either motors would need reducing.

I'm not going to talk about the batteries right now as that is easily solvable due to the various solutions available due to the multitude of batteries available from EVs.

If you believe you're genuinely up to the task of dealing with a high voltage application, the designing and making of the motor housing and reduction box then it may be worth contacting https://www.voltsport.co.uk/ I've never used or spoken to them, the only reason I'm mentioning them is because they offer the whole range of Sevcon controllers as they have a 300V 300A controller which should suit the motors you are looking at. I just took a look at their motors and they seem to sell a packaged version of the Remy HVH250 motor you've been looking at so I'm sure they could explain the correct controller and battery voltage to use.

 

[technotony007]

HI ,
Firstly , Thanks for getting back to me. The concept behind my thinking is, I Iove this model of motorbike and I wanted a project which I can have fun with as hobby , and evolve over the years as technology advances.

The main reason behind for wanting to dismantle the current ICE assembly and not a direct drive. Is to utilise existing gearbox & clutch so I have that extra controllability , rather than just having 1 speed range and brutal braking action when the throttle is backed off. ( as I am not sure how to achieve this , in any other way / method. )

The original ICE has 86 kw and 117 nm of torque. I was trying to find something similar so I could match the performance , and have a direct bolt on motor which would drive the flywheel direct. once I have fabricated the appropriate mating drive shaft & mounting bracketry.

what would you suggest as alternative EV motor, similar to the ICE to use ? Do I need some sort of electric mapping controlled that I can program with the same ICE characteristics or torque limit to 120 nm of max torque.

Or do you believe I am looking at this wrongly , and everything can be achieved electrically in cost effective way , rather than using original ICE assembly ?

I am open to suggestions on this ?

please forgive my ignorance , but I am nots sure when I comes to selecting electrical motors. I have spent a lot of reading , partly absorbing some of the different types out there. So any pointers would be appreciated , being a newbie to this.

what is meant by High voltage motors ? and what would be more relevant suggested motor , do you think for my project.

what was your thoughts on the 20 kw BLDC motor. ( useable or there's better out there.)

the mechanical parameters I believe I require are :

- 86 kw @ 8000 RPM ( if applicable, as I believe torque on EV motors are 0 to max throughout the RPM range )
- 8000 to 10000 RPM
- 110 to 120 NM of torque MAX.

what 16-30s battery range mean ?

I can reduce gearing simple , by attaching a reducing drive sprocket on the EV motor to match the flywheel sprocket gearing.

Thanks for the Voltsport website address. I found it interesting and as an option to look at, It may be useful , if it is cost effective to use the HVH250 motor.

regards

tony

 

[SRFirefox]

The main reason behind for wanting to dismantle the current ICE assembly and not a direct drive. Is to utilise existing gearbox & clutch so I have that extra controllability , rather than just having 1 speed range and brutal braking action when the throttle is backed off. ( as I am not sure how to achieve this , in any other way / method. )

The original ICE has 86 kw and 117 nm of torque. I was trying to find something similar so I could match the performance , and have a direct bolt on motor which would drive the flywheel direct. once I have fabricated the appropriate mating drive shaft & mounting bracketry.

Electric motors don't engine brake in the way you're used to ICE engines doing. Any drag when throttle is removed is mechanical or eddy current losses from the magnets passing the stator iron and is relatively small. All commercially viable EVs use single speed transmissions because a larger motor with single speed is significantly less complex and more energy and mass efficient than a multi-speed drive with equal or smaller motor. For reference, a QS 138 70H motor, only 3kW rated and good to ~15kW, is rated for 56Nm of torque, so a drive motor sized for your bike should have plenty of torque to start with a single speed. Additionally, by having no clutch or multi-speed gearbox, you can use the motor for regenerative braking.

As far as replicating the feel of an ICE throttle, a motor controller that uses current or torque control will feel much like an ICE throttle in response.

what would you suggest as alternative EV motor, similar to the ICE to use ? Do I need some sort of electric mapping controlled that I can program with the same ICE characteristics or torque limit to 120 nm of max torque.

Or do you believe I am looking at this wrongly , and everything can be achieved electrically in cost effective way , rather than using original ICE assembly ?

I am open to suggestions on this ?

please forgive my ignorance , but I am nots sure when I comes to selecting electrical motors. I have spent a lot of reading , partly absorbing some of the different types out there. So any pointers would be appreciated , being a newbie to this.

what is meant by High voltage motors ? and what would be more relevant suggested motor , do you think for my project.

what was your thoughts on the 20 kw BLDC motor. ( useable or there's better out there.)

the mechanical parameters I believe I require are :

- 86 kw @ 8000 RPM ( if applicable, as I believe torque on EV motors are 0 to max throughout the RPM range )
- 8000 to 10000 RPM
- 110 to 120 NM of torque MAX.

what 16-30s battery range mean ?

Motors can happily be run at less than their full torque rating, and it helps to think of the battery-motor-controller system rather than the motor as a unique component. The controller controls the amount of current, which is directly proportional to the torque of a given motor; that is to say that by limiting current you can limit torque.

Voltage of your battery pack affects the top RPM a motor is capable of achieving; the higher the voltage, the higher RPM theoretically attainable; field weakening is able to extend the usable RPM range in some motors beyond what the battery alone does. In that way, choose your single-speed final drive ratio to support the top speed you want to attain and to convert the RPM range of the motor to the speed range of the rear wheel.

16s-30s battery range refers to the number of series cells in the battery, which determines the total pack voltage.

Finally, you don't have to match the figures of the ICE engine directly. Designing your transmission for the motor you choose will be far more useful than trying to shoehorn a motor into the original multi-speed transmission. If keeping part of the original system helps, the bevel drive to the driveshaft would likely be a good place to insert your motor and reduction.

 

[technotony007]

Hi SRfirefox,
Thanks for help and educating so far, much appreciated :thumb:

so my understanding so far is :

In my selection of the choice of EV motor ,

I believe the way I was looking at this was incorrect.

- The motor braking was very insightful, and I understand Physics behind this now. The only point I am unsure of is the regenerative braking. Due to heat energy which will accumulate in motor ( i.e. drive motor will generate energy instead of using it to rotate ?) will I need a means of dispersing it ?, or will it just dissipate back into the batteries ? what will its negative effect be if do don't compensate for his ?

I still intend to use the original deconstructed mechanical assembly of the gearbox & clutch for control of the engine , not lose the original characteristics of handling , and have the added option of control, mechanically.( airing on the safe side , as you don't get second chances with motorbikes at time.)

Therefore the I believe the parameters required to select the EV motor to be :

- 5000 RPM max - ( I was going to work on basis of a ratio potential of Meshed gear / chain drive/ bevel drive transmission to the deconstructed gearbox assembly of 1:2 ) - which should give me 10000 RPM.
- 20 -30 Kw - I am hoping this to most efficient range to use. ( what would be the disadvantage of going smaller ?)
- 120 Nm of torque max, not to overstress the engine. ( this I believe , can be limited by the controller against current used / and can be programmed accordingly against original ICE power curve.)

- After look at various different type of suppliers , I am theoretically looking at having 20 to 30 kw size EV motor. I am struggling to find a supplier cost effective unit , apart from the previously mentioned golden motor BLDC and same unit from miromax ltd.

Any suggestions , as I am not sure wether I have my maths correct with regards to the Kw ?

am I being too ambitious with 20 to 30kw , would I better with 10 to 20 kw or ????? kw

Do you think, I am on the right lines now with the above or I would you suggest something different. ( manufacturer ,etc.)

- As far as replicating the feel of an ICE throttle, I am looking for a motor controller that is programable and uses current or torque control , to which I can match the torque profile of the original honda ICE engine. Please could you suggest a supplier & model such a controller with this option for my choice of motor above ? ( I am going to try Voltsport next weekend.)

- As for the theory on the Voltage of your battery pack affects the top RPM a motor is capable of achieving; the higher the voltage, I am not sure which design to use. would it be better to build a specific battery assembly ? , what would be the theoretical calculation to use to obtain the following performance :

- Range is estimated to be around 300 miles @ say 60 - 70 mph . Therefore say divide 300 miles into 70 = 4.29 hours of running time.
- within utilising the above 20 BLDC EV motor what would be the voltage to aim for with the multiple of batteries. ( 96 or 120v_)
- The intension is 20kw motor controller in theory will be programmed / controlled as per the torque limited map to match the same/similar performance of the previous ICE motor.


Any help on this on how I should be thinking on this would great appreciated.

regards

Tony

 

[Inductonaut]

Sounds like a Zero 75-7 motor would get the performance you want. It's not exactly a small motor though so you'd have to judge if there's enough space for transmission and motor together. You might be able to match the performance with a smaller motor but... where's the fun in that?

Also, I applaud your initiative to innovate. If I were doing this build I'd have probably gone single ratio for the reasons already mentioned but transmissions have been done with good results. There are examples ranging from the Brammo streetbikes to a pit bike built on this very forum. I don't tend to jump on a bandwagon one way or the other.

 

[macribs]

Cool project and nice to see a true touring bike being converted to electric. I will watch your build thread.

I am afraid you are setting yourself up for failure if you continue the path in the first post. You are starting with a motor that is too small power wise and it seems you try to compensate for the lack of power by adding in gearbox and a clutch. This I would rethink several times before committing and make a purchase.

The st1300 is a really heavy bike, iirc well over 300 kilos, or 700 lbs. So that 20 kw motor will be too small to have fun. A little weight will be lost from ditching the engine, but a a lot added with batteries, controller, motor etc. And you plan to keep the gearbox and clutch. That is also extra weight, but more so gearbox and clutch eats up prime real estate that you will need to fit the biggest possible battery into your Honda. It is after all, a great touring bike. So I guess you will be touring? Hence the big battery and possible also an onboard charger.

Don't know what kind of experience you have with electric vehicles? Do you drive an electric car, or have test ridden one? What about electric motorcycle, sit down scooter or electric bike? They all do marvelous without gearbox and clutch. And frankly, adding gearbox to them will not add anything, other the complexity and steal away space you need for the convertion.

Pricing, don't know what to say. I guess it is like everything else in life. Most of the time you get what you pay for. You can skimp on the initial build and try to complete it in record time on a low budget. But most likely you will end up with a motorcycle with too little power, too little range, too slow acceleration and the bike will be no fun at all. I would say go with a known motor for motorcycles, like the Zero motor suggested. And get yourself the biggest battery possible. And a powerful controller. If needed let the build span out longer. So you can get the right parts, at the right price. Do it right from the start and you will be more pleased in the end. You can find used battery cells, used controllers and can save some money on those expensive parts. But it can take some time to gather all parts.

My first tip if you have little experience with electric motorcycles is to set up a test drive. So you can feel how it is to ride an electric motorcycle and that will allow you to first hand experience that you don't need the gearbox. In ICE vehicles the gearbox is a needed part to help with the natural shortcomings of an ICE engine, the narrow power band. I know, some engines have a wider power band, but they still lack low end torque compared to electric motors. Electric motors have very low torque at low RPM, and can spin at high RPM with the same torque.

Electric motors deliver full torque all the time. There ain't no need to compensate for lack of torque. So drop transmission and clutch and use that real estate for more batteries.

 

[technotony007]

Sounds like a Zero 75-7 motor would get the performance you want. It's not exactly a small motor though so you'd have to judge if there's enough space for transmission and motor together. You might be able to match the performance with a smaller motor but... where's the fun in that?

Also, I applaud your initiative to innovate. If I were doing this build I'd have probably gone single ratio for the reasons already mentioned but transmissions have been done with good results. There are examples ranging from the Brammo streetbikes to a pit bike built on this very forum. I don't tend to jump on a bandwagon one way or the other.

Hi Inductonaut,
thanks for the motor suggestion. It looks very good, from the reviews on here. Do you have link on where I would purchase from , I spend some time looking but no success as yet ?

My first attempt at this, is going to utilise the mechanical side , with the removed ICE / chopped down version of gearbox and clutch and the in built water pump assembly ( for motor & controller cooling). if this turns out to be underpowered and not to my satisfaction , I will revert to convert it to all electric...

I looked on the net for Brammo for ideas, and all I found was website with electric bikes with a lot of scantily clad women in Lycra.

Nice to look at thou....

regards

tony

 

[technotony007]

Cool project and nice to see a true touring bike being converted to electric. I will watch your build thread.

I am afraid you are setting yourself up for failure if you continue the path in the first post. You are starting with a motor that is too small power wise and it seems you try to compensate for the lack of power by adding in gearbox and a clutch. This I would rethink several times before committing and make a purchase.

The st1300 is a really heavy bike, iirc well over 300 kilos, or 700 lbs. So that 20 kw motor will be too small to have fun. A little weight will be lost from ditching the engine, but a a lot added with batteries, controller, motor etc. And you plan to keep the gearbox and clutch. That is also extra weight, but more so gearbox and clutch eats up prime real estate that you will need to fit the biggest possible battery into your Honda. It is after all, a great touring bike. So I guess you will be touring? Hence the big battery and possible also an onboard charger.

Don't know what kind of experience you have with electric vehicles? Do you drive an electric car, or have test ridden one? What about electric motorcycle, sit down scooter or electric bike? They all do marvelous without gearbox and clutch. And frankly, adding gearbox to them will not add anything, other the complexity and steal away space you need for the convertion.

Pricing, don't know what to say. I guess it is like everything else in life. Most of the time you get what you pay for. You can skimp on the initial build and try to complete it in record time on a low budget. But most likely you will end up with a motorcycle with too little power, too little range, too slow acceleration and the bike will be no fun at all. I would say go with a known motor for motorcycles, like the Zero motor suggested. And get yourself the biggest battery possible. And a powerful controller. If needed let the build span out longer. So you can get the right parts, at the right price. Do it right from the start and you will be more pleased in the end. You can find used battery cells, used controllers and can save some money on those expensive parts. But it can take some time to gather all parts.

My first tip if you have little experience with electric motorcycles is to set up a test drive. So you can feel how it is to ride an electric motorcycle and that will allow you to first hand experience that you don't need the gearbox. In ICE vehicles the gearbox is a needed part to help with the natural shortcomings of an ICE engine, the narrow power band. I know, some engines have a wider power band, but they still lack low end torque compared to electric motors. Electric motors have very low torque at low RPM, and can spin at high RPM with the same torque.

Electric motors deliver full torque all the time. There ain't no need to compensate for lack of torque. So drop transmission and clutch and use that real estate for more batteries.

Hi Macribs,
thanks for your comments and thoughts. allways welcome... :thumb: , I am a mechanical engineer by trade and all this electrickry is new to me. I like a challenge , and going to do my best and learning and hope have fun along the way.

I believe your thoughts on 20kw motor , are valid . But the maybe this BLDC in straight line drive would be fine. ( without the gearbox,etc.) I was working on the basis of the similarity of Torque required between the ICE & 20kw motor. This I understood could controller via programmable controller. o I thought in theory I could develop a program that matches the ICE torque curve and be able to factor running the BLDC motor at around 70 - 80 of capacity. This to me would ensure I am not stressing the motor to be able ensure longer service of the assembly , with low risk of failures. ( if that makes sense.)

My current thoughts now point to Zero 75-7 , as this looks to have better specification.

54 hp or 40.26 kw

420A @ 116v

battery to use is 10.5Wh assembly.

the only issue I seem to have is where to get one of these?

The st1300 is a heavy bike agreed, about 286kg. but once I have removed the exhausts & headers , ICE part , alternator & starter motor, and other redundant items , I am expecting to save around 100kg.

I plan to cut out the bottom part of the tank , and have this to area for the controller , power junction box& maybe a few batteries.

I Intend to use the side panniers as the battery packs. with the cabling to plug into junction under the tank.

Not sure what mean by an Onboard charger ?

I don't have any experience with electric vehicles or have ever driven any. if the gearbox assembly doesn't prove fruitful , I will go for direct line all electric route. ( it will be fun doing it , find out the hard way.... )

I think it going go be costly for the main bits , I will have to keep an eye on it , I think the beiggest is going to the battery packs.

not sure wether to build myself, use a multiple of Nissan leaf batteries, or I am I open to suggestions. I am only learning on what capacity I will need. how do I work this out ? I think I need to make 96v ( roughly 80% of 116v) and aim for 10.5 Wh of battery capacity. I am probably going to aim for 40kg per side pannier as an estimate . so 80kg total for batteries.

any thoughts and knowledge share will be greatly appreciated

regards

tony

 

[c70r]

Your main three expensive components are the motor, controller and battery. I will give you some rough prices.

Zero 75-7 Motors tend to come up around the EU used for around £1000. (18Kg)

I would suggest the Sevcon Gen 4 Size 6 if you decide to go the Zero motor route due to the 116V capability. The controller, programming cable and software can be sourced for around £1100 brand new from a dealer in the UK. (6Kg)

7 x Nissan Leaf 2018 Modules will get you the 28S (116V) and 112Ah to give you a total of 11.6kWh at a cost of only £1750. (61Kg)

So your main three components come to a cost of about £3850 giving you a peak power of 40kW, continuous power of 17kW and a nominal battery capacity of 11.6kWh.

You also need to think about a charger, likely on board. Making of motor and controller mounts. A throttle like the Magura or Domino (Domino better without a doubt). You will also need a contactor, for example the Sevcon would need a LEV200. Probably may need some handlebar switches. You will also need a DC to DC converter to power your lights, indicators, horn etc.

That basically gives you a Zero S/DS like bike but in the shape of a tourer.

Here's a link regarding info of these newer improved Leaf modules.
https://pushevs.com/2018/01/29/2018-nissan-leaf-battery-real-specs/

While your enthusiasm of wanting to keep the original ICE gearbox/clutch is great it's not the best of ideas. Believe me when we tell you that it's better to go direct drive and it's genuinely in your best interest. There are multiple projects as well as OEM EVs that evolved from gearbox to direct drive learning the hard way.

Here are some reasons as to why we're against the gearbox:
- Unnecessary point of failure & maintenance
- Added cost, weight and space
- Restriction to acceleration

Don't mean it in a negative way but have you looked at any of the conversions/build threads available here on ES, a lot of the information you're not sure about or trying to research is available on various build threads.

There are quite a few builds capable of 50kW, a few builds that have large battery packs and then there are hubmotor, direct drive mid drive and gearbox builds. Though for your weight, intention use and power need you can practically rule out a hubmotor. Best way to learn is from others experiences

 

[technotony007]

Hi All,
Firstly, thanks for the inputs / and thoughts so far…. . I have eventually, with the help of some people of here came up with a feasible plan. (in my mind, anyway !!!)

ICE / Gearbox, clutch, water pump assembly

Gearbox – Yes everyone, I am going to try with the first option to utilise the cut down ICE engine and cobble a means of coupling together the EV motor (bevel belt, Meshed gears, chain sprockets.) so, I can get an effective water-cooling system also.

I am expecting mechanical losses from this setup, but I will try and reduce them were possible, and eventually see a result.

Once installed if this proves fruitless / and not to my satisfaction I will scrap the gearbox idea and revert to an EV motor direct system.
Plan is to keep the weight, especially the batteries low down.

The Electric EV side

There was a great deal of help, and thanks especially to guys in endless sphere forum and c70r and for his thoughts on this:

My current thoughts for the powered system are:

Batteries

Both assemblies will be mounted in each side pannier. (some strengthening may be needed.)
Either:

Plan A -

2 off - 2012 Chevrolet Volt EV 88V/5kWh battery pack
Lithium Battery Module - LiMn2O4/LiNiO2
Contains 24 cells or 2 packs of 12 cells.
Each cell is nominal 3.7V, max voltage 4.15V - measured 34Ah.
Continuous current is 4C = 140A, short time 210A.
Length: 47cm (18.5")
Width: 18cm (7") top / 24cm (9.5") bottom
Height: 28cm (11")
Weight: 38kg (84 lbs)

Link below.

https://evshop.eu/en/batteries/6-4kwh-chevrolet-volt-lithium-battery-module.html

Plan B -

7 x Nissan Leaf 2018 Modules will get you the 28S (116V) and 112Ah to giving a total of 11.6kWh

https://pushevs.com/2018/01/29/2018-nis ... eal-specs/

The EV drive motor:

My current thoughts now point to Zero 75-7, as this looks to have better specification. The previous 20kw BLDC motor, was suggested to be underpowered for this setup.

54 hp or 40.26 kw

420A @ 116v

The only issue with this motor, is it is rarer than hens’ teeth to find. A good secondhand unit is hard to find, so it maybe some time until I acquire one.

The controller

the Sevcon Gen 4 Size 6 if you decide to go the Zero motor route due to the 116V capability. The controller, programming cable and software can be sourced for around £1100 brand new from a dealer in the UK. (6Kg)
Hopefully I can find a secondhand unit out there!

DC- DC controller –

This is to power your lights, indicators, horn etc. (these I seen at Maplin’s / RS for Previously about £30.

Throttle / twist grip -

the throttle like will be a Domino, as these are supposed to be the best. (not found one yet!)

This basically gives me a Zero S/DS like bike but in the shape of a tourer.

First job is the engine conversion. (while I hunt for the EV parts in the background.) I will post photos as it progresses , and how it costs.

Regards and many thanks to, c70r, I owe you a pint.

tony

 

[technotony007]

Hi all,
with the 2 options of Battery packs I have list above , can anyone tell me what I am expect to see in range ?

I know the there will be a difference depend on whether I use a direct drive or the cut down gearbox version.

if we can assume the direct drive only , as a start …. this would be very helpful in the long run.

thanks in advance

Tony

 

[macribs]

Hi All,
Firstly, thanks for the inputs / and thoughts so far…. . I have eventually, with the help of some people of here came up with a feasible plan. (in my mind, anyway !!!)

ICE / Gearbox, clutch, water pump assembly

Gearbox – Yes everyone, I am going to try with the first option to utilise the cut down ICE engine and cobble a means of coupling together the EV motor (bevel belt, Meshed gears, chain sprockets.) so, I can get an effective water-cooling system also.

Take a time out, rethink this plan and before you land on a set conclusion please for your own sanity, your wallet, savings account, and time management do yourself a huge favor and test drive some electric vehicles. If you're in a winter climate right now and can't get access to test driving an electric motorcycle, go test drive an electric car. Feel the torque, the acceleration and how well electric motors works without a gearbox.

A gearbox brings you nothing but headache into your project. You are thinking about this in reference to your experiences as a user of ICE vehicles. And you belive you will need a gearbox, or that the gearbox will bring you extra fun, more usability or whatever. But in fact, using a gearbox will make the driving less fun, it will take away from the experience and likely make the st1300 less usable in all possible riding scenarios. You are converting a touring bike, I can not think of any scenarios where a gearbox will be a benefit for your bike and your riding experiences.

If you fear slow acceleration, the solution is to gear down for more acceleration with your sprockets, or go for an even bigger motor the first time. Drop all thoughts about the 20 kw motor. It is too small. The Zero motor is widely known for its performance, its torque and its durability. If you enjoy acceleration like many of us do, gear down with correct sprockets and you can even go lower then you initial thoughts, because cruising at very high speed tends to eat batteries.

The zero motor is air cooled, btw. Using an air cooled motor, you don't need water cooling, no cooling lines and no water pump. If your battery pack overheats, your pack is too small. Or you didn't plan for enough air flow in the first place. A well matched battery, big enough to deliver the amps your need for acceleration and cruising and some air flow will be enough. Well unless you ride primarily in the dessert or in very hot weather. But the st1300 is a touring bike, so my guess is you will use it as touring bike more then a hooligan bike and you likely will not draw max amp constantly.

If it was me doing such a build, I would focus on placing as much of the batteries "in the frame" as possible. And ditching the idea of a gearbox, water pump, cooling lines etc frees up important space you can use to place you batteries "in the frame", or at least as much of the batteries as possible. Frame mounted batteries will give you more centralized mass for better handling, giving you a more predictable ride, better "curve carving" at touring speed. Your plan about using the panniers for batteries, I don't know about that. All that weight so far back in the panniers and up high might give you a bike that rides like a pig, nervous on the front wheel, bad grip on your front tire and overall bad handling in curves. Not what you want from a motorcycle. And imagine what happens if you ever need to break hard mid curve? Weight will transfer forward will be too slow, but will happen eventually, you just might not be alive anymore to have that experience.

When it comes to scoring that zero motor and controller, try posting in this forums "wanted" thread. You might get lucky. Or browse your local second hand website, ebay etc.

 

[macribs]

Hi all,
with the 2 options of Battery packs I have list above , can anyone tell me what I am expect to see in range ?

I know the there will be a difference depend on whether I use a direct drive or the cut down gearbox version.

if we can assume the direct drive only , as a start …. this would be very helpful in the long run.

thanks in advance

The zero Sr uses the 75-7 motor iirc. Here are what zero promises. Your mileage might vary, you got less wind resistance, but you also got a heavier bike. You will also have a smaller pack.

Copy n paste from Zero's website: (14.4 is the battery capacity)

ZERO SR ZF14.4
Maximum torque, performance and range.
Zero SR is quick enough to out-accelerate a Porsche 911. It produces 116 ft-lb of torque and can run at higher sustained top speeds using an enhanced motor and higher amperage motor controller.

Range (mi): 179 city / 90 highway

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

Keeping the gearbox is, in my opinion, a good idea.
This way you can maximize the torque on the wheel, maximize your top speed and, possibly, optimize your cruise speed efficiency by avoiding using flux weakening. It will also be funnier to drive, that's something most people seem to forgot somehow.

If it is not too complicated for you to build, then go for it. You won't really need 5 or 6 gears though, 3 would likely be more than enough so try to see if you could remove some in the process.

You seem to have a solid plan for that build so far, can't wait to see the build starting!

 

[macribs]

I am not trying to start a fight here, I just try to understand what a gearbox brings to the table.

Keep the gearbox because shifting gear is fun? I really tried to wrap my head around that statement and weigh the pro's vs the con's of using a gearbox but I still can not see any use for a gearbox here, especially this being a touring bike. If I had a touring bike I would primarily use it as touring bike. For longer, more comfortable rides. Possible using the panniers for luggage for a weekend trip or even a holiday. Maybe you guys will use the st1300 in a different manner? No matter what use case I imagine for the st1300, I can't see how adding a gear box improve the riding experience. Please educate me.

More top speed? Sure. But for how long? He is planning to use a rather small battery for the bike. I doubt he'll be going any place at top speed for very long, because speed north of 70-80 mph rapidly drains the battery.

Correct single speed gearing might cap the top speed ie at say 95 mph or 110 mph this having full fairing, if a gearbox can up the top speed to 130 mph or possible even a little more, when and for how long will he be able to go at that speed before draining the pack?

Canyon riding, twisty back roads or long swiping curves are what I imagine will be the most enjoyable place for such a bike, at a leisurely pace. No stress, no long top speed runs. Just cruising, carving and enjoying the scenery, the open road and freedom of riding. And for that can't understand what a gearbox adds.

Kymco, a sit down scooter manufacturer have their main product line running CVT's, so they should not be biased towards a gearbox in an electric. Yet they are using a 6 speed box for their new electric sports motorcycle. Why? I am struggling to see and grasp if Kymco actually thinks that the gearbox brings any added features or if Kymco chose the gearbox because they think a gearbox is what people crave?

Zero and Energica are both staying away from gearboxes as far as I know. And those bikes work very well, and I don't think people test driving those actually are complaining at the lack of shifting gears, at least I never heard anyone complain about that. Alta (RIP) even made an electric motocross bike without feeling the need for a gearbox. At least one of the forum members got one, and is very pleased. Seems to work well even in dirt and gravel and climbing steep terrain without any issues and without the need for gearbox.

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

I am not trying to start a fight here, I just try to understand what a gearbox brings to the table.

I guess everyone has a different point of view when it comes to riding fun. In Europe most people have manual gearboxes for cars and automatic gearboxes are the exception. It's not that we can't build automatic gearboxes, it's mostly because people enjoy shifting. Automatic gearboxes cars value depreciates much more and are harder to sell for this reason. It's very different in some other regions of the world where automatic gearboxes are prefered.
Without gearbox, and especially with most electric motors/controllers, you get a somewhat flat torque curve, so the acceleration stays about constant. Meaning you feel it less and less as far as the acceleration goes. Shifting gears delivers a slight kick in the butt everytime and gives you the feeling that you're accelerating more (even if you actually don't). That's just a bit funnier, IMO, and I think this has to do with the fact that fun lives in the variation of sensation, you don't get fun with constants.
On my bike I don't have a gearbox, but I often release the throttle for a brief moment then twist it again just to simulate that feeling. A bit hard to describe but it tricks you into thinking you get more torque for a brief moment.

About the actual usefulness of the gearbox, well the bike will be heavy, that's for sure, and I suppose it will need to be able to cruise at highway speeds, so a gearbox makes plenyty of sense here to get a good compromize between startup torque, cruising speed and motor cost. The Zero and the Energica are both some very lightweigh bikes so the comparison doesn't really makes much sense.

Anyway, let's not hijack the OP's post with all that crap, :wink:

That will not be an easy build. The motor will likely have to be installed in a weird spot not matter if he uses the gearbox or not, because the wheel is shaft driven. I hope for the OP that he doesn't have to put the battery in the side paniers, mainly because it isn't ideal for the bike's balance, but that probably won't be easy. The frame is beefy, the motor position will be right in the middle... Maybe cutting off the bottom of the fuel tank will help to put part of the battery, there seems to be also a bit of useful space under the seat.
I'd try to split the battery into several blocks and make them fit wherever there's space, to keep weight centered.
Lots of hard work to be done anyways, it will be interesting to follow!

 

[technotony007]

thanks guys,
for your debate and thoughts so far :thumb: :thumb:
I am going with the gearbox option for now and to see how much losses in mechanical power i might get.

i will start posting once i start the breakdown and retrofit.

off to voltsport tomorrow to try and chat with a guy called phill about the sevcon controller & programming software.
regards

tony

 

[John in CR]

Time to back up a bit. How much does that thing weigh without motor, transmission (not needed unless you need a low gear for long mountain climbs with a big load), gas tank, etc? It looks heavy to me, and if you're going to all the trouble of building a beautiful EV you want it to be fun. It's not the 70's when your only option was lead batteries, so EV's were only short range and low performance.
1. So you need to come up with a total load estimate, and don't forget you and passenger, if any.
2. How do you plan to use the bike (terrain and desired performance)? Flat is easy and long uphill grades can be killers.
3. How far and how fast?

A complete picture of what is desired is essential to make good battery motor and controller choices. If long range cruising is in the plan too, then you really have to go further than just a gasser lookalike and address aerodynamics as much as practical and the stock front fairing is barely a start.

 

[macribs]

What he said. Valid points john.

I think the aerodynamics are pretty good stock on the Honda. Full fairing. I do think the stock panniers will impact range, even if the curves are rather nice on those as well, have a look see. The impact of the panniers could possible be tested with fluid dynamics simulation.

Me, as part of such a conversion I would loose the drive shaft as well as the gearbox. chain and sprocket or belt drive is much easier, easy to maintain and sheds weight as well.

 

[technotony007]

Hi all,
went to Voltsport , and spoke a fine chap called Phil. I discussed at length what I wanted to , and he was more than helpful and he showed me the route to take and why.

The Sevcon controller Gen 4 size 6 + software and lead for programming.

A Montrenergy ME 1606 , water cooled brushless electric motor, is now the chosen instead of the zero 75 - 7 motor.

I have ordered the above parts from , with a harness , and now my next task is the ICE motor strip down .

He has also shown me a few options on batteries, self build packs & other cheaper versions than Nissan leaf verisions. so I am going to look into these designs once i graft the motor onto the gearbox,etc.

I will revert with photos once I start.

regards

tony

 

[technotony007]

Time to back up a bit. How much does that thing weigh without motor, transmission (not needed unless you need a low gear for long mountain climbs with a big load), gas tank, etc? It looks heavy to me, and if you're going to all the trouble of building a beautiful EV you want it to be fun. It's not the 70's when your only option was lead batteries, so EV's were only short range and low performance.
1. So you need to come up with a total load estimate, and don't forget you and passenger, if any.
2. How do you plan to use the bike (terrain and desired performance)? Flat is easy and long uphill grades can be killers.
3. How far and how fast?

A complete picture of what is desired is essential to make good battery motor and controller choices. If long range cruising is in the plan too, then you really have to go further than just a gasser lookalike and address aerodynamics as much as practical and the stock front fairing is barely a start.

Hi john,
The bike weights 285 kg . With the removal of the exhaust , alternator , starter ,ICE portion of the engine, redundant wiring and electrics. I reckon I should be able to loose around 120 kg.
as I now have the engine and controller sorted. I can design a battery to hopeful achieve around 200 miles for now , which will cost effective.
its a sports cruiser at the end of the day , so I do expect to go 90 mph , hopefully be able to cruise at 70 to 80 mph , which I do with my ICE bike.
its a base to start from , to which I will hopefully by trial and error evolve this is into better as I go along.

regards

tony

 

[technotony007]

What he said. Valid points john.

I think the aerodynamics are pretty good stock on the Honda. Full fairing. I do think the stock panniers will impact range, even if the curves are rather nice on those as well, have a look see. The impact of the panniers could possible be tested with fluid dynamics simulation.

Me, as part of such a conversion I would loose the drive shaft as well as the gearbox. chain and sprocket or belt drive is much easier, easy to maintain and sheds weight as well.

Hi Macribs,
I need those panniers , as I plan for these to be my removable battery boxes. so I spread the battery weight out evenly.

I have already list above why I want the gearbox , clutch , water pump system still on the bike. " control "

I agree chain & sprocket would be better, the shaft is what I have..

time will tell if this works out , fingers crossed.

regards

Tony

 

[macribs]

OK I get that you have a plan, and that you are set on the gearbox so that is set in stone. Great. I hope you plan works, and will follow your build, maybe you find the right mix and come up with something unique?

I've been in your shoes, thinking of all the benefits from using a gearbox myself earlier, thinking that a gearbox would solve EV problems. Then I learned that for me, at least, it is not really a gearbox or not issue. The root cause resulting in the thinking that a gearbox would be a magic solution was in fact, partly due to traditional thinking. Being a life long "petrol head" before entering into EV. At that time, my thinking was in fact related to the shortcomings of every ICE vehicle, ICE was my only reference point so I thought the same was true for EV's - in my mind all vehicles would benefit from a gearbox. I didn't really consider the high RPM of electric motor and the max torque at zero RPM. The power band in electric motors is for all practical purposes infinite. With what feels like a never ending full on acceleration from standstill to way past my needed speed.

The main problem is today's battery chemistry and what is available for the DIY crowd. It is not a gearbox or not problem. It is the amount of energy we can carry in our packs. Also for most people cash is a factor as well. Bigger motor, needs bigger controller, which needs bigger battery pack, and those all eat cash. Lot's of cash. And we end up with real estate issues, too much weight and no where safe to put all that weight.

For batteries, we are stuck with only a few choices. Li ion, Lipo or lifepo. And in motorcycles real estate are at a premium. We are limited in how big a pack we can create. For a motorcycle what causes problems is not really the torque, lack of high top speed or the usability in steep climbs. All that can be accounted for with the right motor/controller combo. It is our battle against the head wind as speed increases that rapidly drains the battery pack. So prolonged higher speed cruising/sporty riding or prolonged top speed runs are not really feasible for electric motorcycles with today's battery tech. If really high top speed or extende higher speed runs are what you are after, maybe EV motorcycle is not your thing? Maybe any ICE motorcycle might deliver all what you need, except the noise, smoke and smell? Maybe in 5 years battery tech will catch up? One day the long promised "next-gen" battery cell will come.

Heck the Honda is a great bike as it stands bone stock, could be a keeper as is?

If you answered John's questions for yourself you will know what you are really after. If you press on, do consider weight placement. Weight is not just a static number. Where the weight is placed is crucial for the bikes handling. Too much weight too far back can cause a nice day of riding to turn into lethal experience. You know what they say about people riding motorcycles, organ donors...bad choice in weight placement might make you a donor as well.

Do a weigh in of the bike, note the weight for each axle as the bike sits stock. As your build progress, try not to put more load on the rear axle then the stock bike. Maybe you can hang parts of the battery pack in front of the frame? Like where the radiators are? That will help with keeping that great handling. Problem with handling is that you might not notice bad handling before you really need a predictable handling in a high stress split second situation. Simple task like changing line quickly mid corner can with a bad weight distribution turn nasty too quick.

 

[John in CR]

I'm trying to help you not make the same mistakes plenty of engineers have made when approaching an EV build. Everyone who's mechanically inclined thinks in the beginning that they'd somehow be better off with a clutch and multiple gears. I thought the same way too. Even Tesla wasted millions in the early days of designing the Roadster trying a 2 speed tranny, and electric motorcycle companies have failed completely due to adopting the multi-gear attitude. How many electric racers use them? None, case dismissed.

Think like an engineer and start at the beginning. Why do smoke belching dinosaurs have clutches and multiple gears? While at a stop their motor shaft must continue to spin, because their antiquated motor makes zero torque at 0rpm, and torque gradually rises to a narrow band of good torque and power. Not only are ICEs poor at making torque, but they have low efficiency too. At best the motor itself has only about 1/3rd peak efficiency, but with all the additional crap needed before the toque gets to the wheel, the overall efficiency is closer to 20%. That's a lot of heat to get rid of, and with it all starting with gases exploding at thousands of degrees, everything gets hot, since by law what doesn't get converted into mechanical energy has to turn into heat.

Now look at an electric drive. A good motor has over 90% efficiency, and an electric motor can make maximum torque at 0rpm, with controllers keeping that flat out to peak power before it begins to taper off with very broad toque and power curves. Even diesel trains have electric drives, and guess what, they have no gearboxes either. As far as control goes, a good controller gives you far better control than any clutch and gear combination, all so simple just by twisting the throttle. Plus you can easily tune the control exactly to your liking, or even go from a regular cruising/commuting tuning to an aggressive sport tuning or slippery conditions tuning at the flip of the switch.

Unless you want to haul a heavy passenger or a trailer slowly up a mountain, there's absolutely no advantage to retaining the clutch and transmission other than the mental exercise and mechanical challenge of making it work. There are, however, real and significant disadvantages. First and foremost with a 200 mile range desire is the hit to efficiency, because you'll almost double your losses. You'll wish you could get back the wasted space once you start making batteries fit, and if the extra weight is nothing use some lead weights instead, then at least you could try them in different locations to tune the weight distribution. If you want to keep unnecessary items from the original gasser, why stop at the clutch, gearbox and radiator? Keep the gas tank and exhaust system too.

Regarding the panniers, they may not be significant on a poor efficiency gasser, but they're very significant on a 200 miles range high speed EV. The front fairing does little for aerodynamics, and much more for rider comfort at speed. Aerodynamics is much less about the hole you make in the wind than it is about the turbulent wake you drag behind. Show me any truly aero shape that has 2 big side blobs near the tail end and I'll eat my hat. If you really need the extra battery space, put the mechanical design effort you were going to put into the gearbox adaption into building a tailbox that actually improves aerodynamics over the stock bike without panniers. Be proud of your homebuilt EV and make it a piece of mechanical artwork that is obviously electric,