New Project " help Please" Honda st1300 Conversion

[c70r]

I'm not going to go into the gearbox argument as others have already spoken on that.

I'm going to speak about the range.
If your intention is to have 200 miles of range at motorway/highway speeds of 70mph then you may as well quit the build before you start.
A Zero DSR which is lighter and more aerodynamic than the Honda ST1300 uses about 200Wh/mile. Even assuming the Honda would have the same Wh/mi value you would need a 40kWh battery (200 miles * 200Wh/mi). To put that in perspective you would essentially need to fit an entire Nissan Leaf 2018 Battery pack into a motorcycle which looks like this. https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/2017-nissan-leaf-showing-battery-pack-source-nissan_100664168_l.jpg
The reason why there aren't high speed long range motorcycles is because of their poor drag co-efficient.
Not only is this going to be massive if you somehow manage to fit all those batteries, it will be expensive and heavy.
The Leaf 40kWh battery pack weighs in excess of 210KG and more or less £5000 if you can find one.

 

[Anders]

I get the Wh/mile to 170 on the Energica Ego+ (in Extra urban which I assume is highway) and around 154 for the Zero SR/F highway so 200 sounds high for the DSR.

Haven't seen CD values for either bike but would be surprised if the DSR had significant aerodynamic advantages over the ST1300, and weight really doesn't matter much for highway milage.

Terry Hershner did the iron butt challange on a streamlined 2012 Zero S with about 20kWh and he claimed 200mile range per charge, but that was with a full streamliner fairing. And later on 300mile range with 27kWh https://insideevs.com/news/326039/e...s-300-miles-on-zero-motorcycle-on-one-charge/.
So for motorcycle highway range aero definitely is king.

The ST1300 is a big bike, so you could probably get at least 20kWh into the fairings without too much hassle (I have 10kWh in my FZR-1000 and I could definitely squeeze in a couple of more kWh in there). And if you can get 10kWh into the panniers you should just barely get 200miles of highway range assuming consumption similar to the SR/F.

But I think fast charging would be much more important than range on a project like this. Doesn't really matter how long range you have, you can't tour on it if you can only realistically charge at home. So if I was building a big touring bike like this my priority 1 would be to figure out CCS charging. It's not going to be fun charging a 30kWh pack at a gas station in the middle of nowhere with a 3.3kW Elcon.....

 

[c70r]

CCS Charging isn't an issue, it can be worked out with ease. His priority is to figure out how much capacity he can fill it up with, what's the point of building a "touring bike" if you have to to find somewhere to charge every one or two hours, even if you could charge in an hour each time (assuming 30kW charger and 30kWh capacity).

Secondly, are you aware that the higher the speed the worse the efficiency gets, you're comparing the "Electric Terry" with all its streamlining to a chunky ST1300 with panniers which would just kill efficiency. The Electric Terry was averaging 65mph, OP intends to average 70-75mph.

Zero SR/F: 12.6kWh nominal battery, 82 mile range at 70mph (Zero claimed). 12600Wh/82mi = 154Wh/mi
Zero DSR: 15.8kWh nominal battery, 97 mile range at 70mph (Zero claimed). 15800Wh/97mi = 162Wh/mi

Trying to use the SR/F as a base of calculations for a Honda ST1300 is just silly, it's wider and than the Honda ST1300. Then you have the panniers sticking out acting as miniature parachutes.

Even then, I'm willing to play ball and use the 154Wh/mi of the Zero SR/F, multiply that by the 200 miles and you get 30kWh.

A quick google search gave me this picture of the ST1300 without the fairings/plastics.

Considering the OP should not use the panniers for efficiency sake, and wants to essentially keep half of the old engine he doesn't have much room to play with to fit 30kWh worth of batteries.

It's better to plan for extra than hope the bare minimum works out, what if my guesstimate of 200Wh/mi turns out to be correct for 75mph cruising, with a 30kWh pack that's only 150miles, essentially 2 hours of riding which isn't much for a tourer.

Honestly at this point I would only worry about what you can fit inside battery wise, then think about the motor and whether you want to keep the gearbox etc. You're making decisions before you've even thought about the single most important thing which is the battery capacity. Worst comes to worst you could always use the biggest hub motor that QS offer, would easily satisfy your power needs and the unsprung weight should not be an issue considering you'll be cruising on straight roads.

 

[John in CR]

But I think fast charging would be much more important than range on a project like this. Doesn't really matter how long range you have, you can't tour on it if you can only realistically charge at home. So if I was building a big touring bike like this my priority 1 would be to figure out CCS charging. It's not going to be fun charging a 30kWh pack at a gas station in the middle of nowhere with a 3.3kW Elcon.....

I wholeheartedly disagree. I never even wait a minute on charging. The most important thing with almost any EV is just making small changes in how you travel that make the trip more pleasant. Spend the time you'd waste at smelly gas pumps using an ICE to plan the trip well, including stops to do or see interesting things, have a nice meal, sleep, etc. so you charge while doing something you like. Get away from the toxicity of the Interstates, go a bit slower when range between stops is tight, and make more stops.

We shouldn't only change the vehicle in which we travel, but how we travel too. See those things while you can, because it won't be long before it's all done airborne, where the vehicle is so computerized that you just give a voice command of your destination and the vehicle handles it from there in complete safety.

BTW, when Hershner did Vetter's Challenge, he got 100wh/mile on the highway at speeds up to 80mph...172miles with a 17kwh battery. The problem with this big Honda is that fairing and bike have to punch a far bigger hole through the air. To me the Vetter streamliners look just odd.

I'm hoping with a bit of encouragement engineer Tony will come up with something beautiful for us to copy stuff from. A big heavy pig emoto with pitiful performance that looks like a gasser simply won't cut it. A mechanical engineer really should be doing a scratch build anyway. His goal wouldn't be trying to sell to a public slow to adopt EVs, so it's totally unnecessary to make it look like an ICE bike like the manufacturers are still doing. Make form follow function with design goals to meet his needs.

 

[macribs]

Words John. It's gonna be interesting seeing what the engineer takes away with him from this thread, if any and what he comes up with. I do think he will readjust when the reality of the EV world settles in his mind. It is possible to have a good time riding electric, but if you build your own you should embrace what can't be changed at the moment and do the best with what you can change within the constraint of the real estate available.

 

[John in CR]

Words John. It's gonna be interesting seeing what the engineer takes away with him from this thread, if any and what he comes up with. I do think he will readjust when the reality of the EV world settles in his mind. It is possible to have a good time riding electric, but if you build your own you should embrace what can't be changed at the moment and do the best with what you can change within the constraint of the real estate available.

Hopefully Tony can learn a bit from our mistakes and our early misconceptions, and not have to do it all the hard way like we did.

 

[macribs]

Yeah hopefully. But not likely
Plenty of people here on ES that have gone this exact route and wasted time and money.

And when we see bikes like the new sports bike from Kymco and they tell us a gearbox is a benefit also for motorcycles it just add to the havoc. What people really should be asking is what kind of bikes has Kymco produced before. And they would learn that Kymco does sit down scooters with cvt. So maybe not the best source of wisdom just for that

 

[John in CR]

Yeah hopefully. But not likely
Plenty of people here on ES that have gone this exact route and wasted time and money.

And when we see bikes like the new sports bike from Kymco and they tell us a gearbox is a benefit also for motorcycles it just add to the havoc. What people really should be asking is what kind of bikes has Kymco produced before. And they would learn that Kymco does sit down scooters with cvt. So maybe not the best source of wisdom just for that

Kymco has adopted the foolish concept that "the art of motorcycle riding is shifting". Combine that with the fact that they have a 6 speed gearbox and the word that comes to mind is "Lunacy". I can see using a 2 speed or at most a 3 speed to really stretch the top speed envelope of a common voltage limited motor, but it's impossible to reconcile achieving ICE sportsbike top speeds with what that does to range. Plus it's just a matter of correct motor/controller combination to achieve the power and torque for those speeds, since some electric motors can spin up to incredible rpms without issue. Look at what Arlo1 has done with that Nissan Leaf motor, and 58kg to take the place of a big bike's motor, tranny, starter, etc would be a significant weight savings. Imagine that 500hp on a bike.

Imagine what will be possible once battery energy density multiplies a few times. Batteries are the only thing holding us up. Since even diesel trains have electric motors with no gearboxes, there's really nothing more to say.

 

[thoroughbred]

https://electricmotorcycles.news/newsflash-tacita-at-the-2020-dakar-rally/

Do I spy a clutch and gearbox? :wink:

 

[technotony007]

Gents ,
I appreciate all the debates and thoughts , There is a lot of valid points here , and i am taking stock of these past lessons , but i am a pure hobbyist's , and looking at the pure physics side , with instant full torque from start , I believe the theory of this setup I believe should work.
I pick the Motor and controller next week from Voltsport , and then I can work if it is indeed possible to fit the motor onto the cut down assembly in a efficient manner.
until I do this to see if it is indeed feasible , we will know at this point. once the transplant is made I need to make up a benchtop power pack to see if what power I will need to drive this assembly.

the engine side , will only cost me time really , fingers crossed something fruitful comes of it

will revert with an update and photos soon hopefully.

regards

tony :thumb:

 

[macribs]

https://electricmotorcycles.news/newsflash-tacita-at-the-2020-dakar-rally/

Do I spy a clutch and gearbox? :wink:

Then you got better eyes then I do. All I can see is a rear break lever.

I also found a pic of the bike taken from the other side, and I could not spot a gear lever.
What you might take as a gear box/clutch cover from the pic in the link might very well be a one step gear reduction and that motor and reduction has a protection plate put in front of it.

 

[John in CR]

All of the models Tacita sells have 5 speed manual gearboxes. Whether it's a sales gimmick to attract riders accustomed to shifting or their R&D is so weak that they don't know better, it's impossible to tell. Slapping gas tanks on the road models combined with the glaring lack of performance information other than relatively short range for such large battery packs at only 65kph avg speed tells me it's both.

It bears repeating that trains use electric motors without multi-speed gearboxes despite pulling incredibly heavy loads. Once that really soaks in, there's only one obvious conclusion.

 

[technotony007]

Update 25.04.2020


Well ladies & Gents,

I thought it was about time a gave an update on my Electric pan project to date.The first thing I did back in January was sent the frame, sub frame, swingarm and the centre stand away to be sand blasted and powder coated.



After this I then started to assemble all the parts back together to form the outline of a bike again.
First the swingarm. It took me a while work out how much gap on each side to, I think this is correct. (please let me know if I got it wrong. Could not find the gap in the Manual.)


The next task was to fit the yokes, folks, rear Maxton shock, foot peg brackets. The windscreen motor drive assembly is now removed as it will save power drain from the batteries, I plan on having a static one position screen.
I have also at this point started to refit the front brakes, which will be non-ABS system, to save on power demands again.


Now on with the rest on the brakes and fill up with DOT 4 and bled accordingly.






Once all the brakes were bled, the fitting of the rear light, tail section, tank, tank lock, panels, seats and rear drive unit.

In an effort to save as much demand on the battery as possible and reduce any potential demands on power. My plan is to
Convert and the lights to LED’s
Trim the harness down. Future update to detail further.

The drive train and shaft are to stay very much the same. I plan to fill the splined universal coupling by either welding, chemical metal, or brass. this will assist with connection to the Keyway shaft fitted to the electric drive motor I intend to use.

The Planned next stages are:

Trimming down the wiring harness, removing all the redundant functions like the:
Ignition system, coils & CDI.
ABS braking system & ECU.
Starting motor function.
Alternator
Relays block
Changeout the Indicator relay for LED unit.
incorporating the DCC to DCC unit to feed direct from the New Main Battery.
Fuel Injection system, pump and gauge
Clutch switch.
Transponder system for ignition key.
Lombard sensors (exhaust)
Air flow sensors
basically, so the functions left from the original harness will be:
Ignition switch and key
Indicators (now LED)
Front Light unit (now LED)
Brake lights (now LED)
Side stand switch
Side lights (Now LED)
Run / Stop switch.
Light switch.

I am still on the lookout on eBay for the following:

RH lower blue fairing
RH mirror cover in blue.
Bikini top fairing in blue.
Headlight unit.

Then the design on the 20kw motor & battery Cage, which is now where the original ICE engine is. I decided now just to the electric battery and motor route, for ease. If down the line, after I finish bike, I may revisit the ICE conversion, as I still deep down believe I could utilise the gearbox, crank and clutch as previously though. But this will be too involved for now.
The thoughts I have for the motor and battery cage, will be a strong 25mm thick aluminium back plate, to which the 20-kw motor will bolt direct onto. This back plate will secure in place the modified spine coupling onto the drive. the area in of the motor will be the area that I fit the 14 Nissain Leaf LI Ion batteries, or similar with the a BMS fitted.

The Li ion Batteries from the Nissain leaf will be stacked ontop of each other.

each battery is technically a 2s2p

nominal voltage - 7.7v
fully charged - 8.4v
Fully discharged - 5.6 v

amp hour 64

Watt hour 500WH

continuous discharge 240A

Peak discharge 540A

therefore 14 of these modules i am expecting

96v , 896ah , 7000Kwh

The Fuel tank will first have the underside cut out, and Sevcon controller will be mounted inside on a PDM backing board for insulation. I also plan to fit some sort of charging plug into the fuel cap area.


All these ideas, at the moment are still fluid, but as I commit to a design or revise it, I will post pictures and the thoughts behind it.

If anyone has thoughts on the range i will get with the 20kw motor I have ??????

Also some suggestions on a BMS and a charging system ??

Please let me know, as more minds are better than one.

I have the base design laid out to work from...

Stay safe

tony

 

[technotony007]

Thoughts anyone ????

On the range with this setup , i will get with the 20kw motor I have ??????

Also some suggestions on a BMS and a charging system for leaf LI ion Batteries??

any feedback would greatly received.

thanks in advance,

regards

tony

 

[tylerwatts]

Hi Tony

Range depends very much on use. Lots of accelerating or cruising at sustained higher speeds uses a lot of power. If you plan to do lots of motorway speeds, look at the different range ev bikes get at different speeds and estimate that way.

The 20kw motor won't be stellar in performance but it will be brisk and relaxed at lower speeds. 20kw continuous is enough for your cruise speed also but not on big/long hills. If it can peak at more than that then you will be fine. Make sure you have the correct gear reduction from motor to rear wheel. What is the final drive ratio of your bike?

Restoration of the bike is looking good so far, nice work.

Cheers
Tyler

 

[technotony007]

Hi Tony

Range depends very much on use. Lots of accelerating or cruising at sustained higher speeds uses a lot of power. If you plan to do lots of motorway speeds, look at the different range ev bikes get at different speeds and estimate that way.

The 20kw motor won't be stellar in performance but it will be brisk and relaxed at lower speeds. 20kw continuous is enough for your cruise speed also but not on big/long hills. If it can peak at more than that then you will be fine. Make sure you have the correct gear reduction from motor to rear wheel. What is the final drive ratio of your bike?

Restoration of the bike is looking good so far, nice work.

Cheers
Tyler

Hi Tyler,
Thanks for the feedback fella , :thumb: the 20Kw motor i have is the ME1616 unit. My understand this has a Peak power of 55KW. My current plan and thoughts on the gear ratio is. As its a shaft drive , i plan to graft the exisiting splined universal joint onto the Keyway of the electric motor. ( for this phase !) As the motor revs a 6000rpm , i am hoping i will be able to utilising this at a Max of 5500 rpm and see what speed this gives me. if i need to go for a higher ratio, i will need to re-engineer this again , and go for a 1:2.

until i see the speed i achieve in practice. ( to which i am hoping for around 70 to 90mph at the wheel) , i will not know.

to be honest i am not sure how to work out the speed in theory (on paper ) i will get.

if anyone knows how i would do this , please chip in.... :thumb:

regards

Tony

 

[c70r]

If you haven't bought your batteries yet I highly suggest looking at getting Gen 4 Nissan Leaf cells rather than what appears to be Gen 2 cells.

I've mentioned it before to you but I'll reiterate that the gain in energy density and power density heavily outweighs the small price difference.

Gen 4s go for £200-£250 in the UK depending on the breaker. Each "module" is a 4s2p config of 14.8V Nominal and 112Ah.
Each Gen 4 module is essentially the size of 2 of the older modules stuck together.

So you would need 7 of them to achieve 28S which is what you're aiming for and 112Ah, giving you an 11kWh battery.
So lighter than your current config, smaller and gives more power and range.

Not sure what route you're going with the controller of if you purchased one with your motor but I'm selling a brand new Sevcon Gen 4 Size 6 and the IXXAT cable and DVT Software.

Also, I don't personally suggest purchasing from the ebayer you got that picture from as unfortunately they don't know how to deal with batteries, they don't understand what exactly they're selling as their specification is all over the place, incorrect and inconsistent. Secondly when dealing with these batteries, buying from somebody that capacity checks is highly important.

For example a year ago I had purchased 5 of the Gen 4s for £1000 from a vehicle that had done less than 5000 miles and with a battery capacity graph showing 99% SoH and were stored at the correct storage voltage.

 

[technotony007]

Thanks c70R,
that sound like some good advice on the batteries. I hav already purchased a SEVCON 4 size 6 from Voltsport in december.

just for info , how do i check capacity of Li ion batteries ?

is it just with a multimeter , and obviously i measure :

- DC voltage which should be ?
- amps which should be ?
or do i need to use something else ?

my multimeter is fluke 117 true RMS model.

when i get back home i intend to make the cage and mountng plate for the batteries and motor.

i intend to use 4 off M8 studding , attach to a base plate so they sandwiched together in two sets of 7 ( 14 in total)

i will then pair these stacks into a junctionbox and onto the SEVCON unit.

thats my thoughts

regards

Tony

 

[tylerwatts]

Hi Tony
Can you put the rear wheel up and count how many rotations the drive shaft gives with one wheel revolution? And what size tyre is on the bike?

Cheers
Tyler

 

[technotony007]

Hi Tyler,
thanks for coming back to me on this. Unfortunately i am floating around off coast of Scotland at the moment( for the next month.) , so i would be able to spin the rear wheel 1 revolution , to see how many times the shaft spins.

I will revert on this number of spins , when i get Home.

The tyre is a 170/60-ZR17 - on a 17" rim.

I will do some digging to find the what the ratio is on the rear drive gearbox.

regards

tony

 

[technotony007]

Hi guys ,
after quite a bit of digging on out forum I found :

Final Drive: Enclosed shaft with integrated dampers, 2.833:1

Therefore I believe for every 2.833 turns of the input splined shaft , I should have one full revolution output of the wheel.....

therefore if have up to 6000 turns of the input shaft = 6000 / 2.833 = 2120 revs of wheel.

2120 revs of a 17" wheel ( or approx. say 21" with tyre) = 2120revs x (21 x 25.4 = 533.4 x pie ) = 2120 x 1675mm per minute = 3551000.00 mm

therefore 3551000 / 1000 = 3551 meters per minute.

3551m per minute x 60 = 213060.00m per hour

213060 = 132.3893462 miles in a hour ( max @ 6000 )

132 mph ?????

WOW ! does this seem correct ??

regards

Tony

 

[technotony007]

Hi everyone,
what is the correct way , to determine range with my setup ?

20 kw - ME1616 brushless motor
1 Gen 4 sevcon controller size 6
14 Gen 4 Leaf Li ion batteries. at ( @ 96V )

i have worked out the max. speed at 6000 rpm , being between 132 to 159 mph

I only plan to run at speeds of around 70 to 85 mph.

Your thoughts would be appreciated , and what is the best way to calculate this ?

regards

Tony

 

[amberwolf]

You'd have to know:
*
--wh/mile power usage of your setup, in your specific riding conditions, at the speeds you wish to go

--wh of your battery

divide the one by the other to get the miles you could expect out of it.


Since it's not rideable yet, you can't determine wh/mile experimentally with a wattmeter. So your next best bet is to search the web for electric motorcycles that are similar in physical style and size to yours, and then look for people's posts on forums, etc., that state how many wh/mile they actually see in usage similar to yours.


That said, if you just want a ballpark figure (which may be very different than what you'll actually see), then for typical motorcycle use you might expect 150-200wh/mile or more.

I don't know what your battery capacity in Wh is, but you can determine that by multiplying average voltage by expected Ah capacity. As an example, if you had a 96v battery with 80Ah, that would be 96 * 80 = 7680Wh.

So if you had a 7680wh battery, and took 200wh/mile to ride it on average, then you would get about 7680 / 200 = 38.4 miles, assuming you drained the battery completley empty, starting out completley full.

Since you don't usually want to do that, as it cna shorten the lifespan greatly, you usually only want to use the middle 60-80% of the battery capacity, so you would only get 60-80% of that range.

 

[tylerwatts]

Hi guys ,
after quite a bit of digging on out forum I found :

Final Drive: Enclosed shaft with integrated dampers, 2.833:1

Therefore I believe for every 2.833 turns of the input splined shaft , I should have one full revolution output of the wheel.....

therefore if have up to 6000 turns of the input shaft = 6000 / 2.833 = 2120 revs of wheel.

2120 revs of a 17" wheel ( or approx. say 21" with tyre) = 2120revs x (21 x 25.4 = 533.4 x pie ) = 2120 x 1675mm per minute = 3551000.00 mm

therefore 3551000 / 1000 = 3551 meters per minute.

3551m per minute x 60 = 213060.00m per hour

213060 = 132.3893462 miles in a hour ( max @ 6000 )

132 mph ?????

WOW ! does this seem correct ??

regards

Tony

Hi Tony

In principle this is correct but your system won't output enough power to achieve or sustain this speed. But I suspect the ratio is ok for your motor and controller choice as is. Given the speeds you want to achieve. If you could live with it, a 1.5:1 reduction from the motor to drive shaft would give you 50% more mechanical advantage and better performance especially given the expected weight of the bike.

Cheers
Tyler

 

[technotony007]

Hi tyler,
thanks for your feedback. I agree the 1.5 :1 ratio does look better , than would mean the addition of gearing ,belts , gearboxes etc. the cost benefit at this stage would not advantageous . The motor shaft drive assembly will simple enough to assemble. Later on after this project is finish , i am going to look at the next phase of grafting the electric motor onto the crankshaft of a cut down ICE motor. So i have gears & clutch function,etc.

For now the direct drive is all can afford to spend.

The cost of the cage& back plate construction , and the rest of the batteries ( 14 ) i need , will be next main cost i have to spend.

I am now expecting the bike to much lighter than i previous thought. I believe i will be in the region of 200 to 300kg when finished now , as the leaf batteries + cage = Electric motor should work out lighter than the original bike.

hopefully it will be improvement overall , but only limited to a range of Theoretical mileage of approx. 100miles.

regards

tony