New project. Trike, customer wants it to go fast

[rborger73]

Before

After

There have been changes since the After pic as well. I'll update again when I do the final pics. Cabling and motor wires are run inside aluminum angle on the tops of rear arms as well.

Nicely done! I like the aluminum sheet work too, almost gives it a 1930's aircraft feel.

Thanks. Plans for future ones the sides will be fiberglass or carbon fiber, with the aluminum framing embedded. The way I did it made the whole trike stiffen up and made it ridiculously strong. I did it in sheet metal, but I'll use aluminum sheet if I do a full metal one like this again, and do all the sheet brushed. It is around 65lbs total. How to initially make the sides took much pondering. This was the most inexpensive and lightest way to build it I think. Bottom deck is diamond plated aluminum. There is a thread on it with more details.

Just bypass all the "too fast blah, blah, rabble rabble" in the thread. lol https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68921

 

[r3volved]

Well now that you already have one in metal, you could always use it as a mold to make the next from fiberglass or carbon fiber.

 

[adam333]

rborger73, I just saw your post on "Your Creation's Before & After Pics"

Really nice job on the aluminum fairing, the trike looks clean and professional

Do you have a temperature sensor in the MXUS motor? Do you overheat when doing a series of strong accelerations? I have a Cromotor mounted to a 16" wheel on my trike and it will reach 100degC quickly under repeated hard accelerations.

I disagree about the stability at speed on a kmx trike. A couple of things increase stability, one thing is large diameter front wheels. The tiny 16 inch front wheels are more jittery than 20 inchers. Also a steering dampener solves any instability problems.

Interesting Matt, I went from the regular 16" KMX front wheels to 22.5" fat tires recently and they are definitively less stable. I have yet to try the 20" KMX wheels though.

 

[rborger73]

Well now that you already have one in metal, you could always use it as a mold to make the next from fiberglass or carbon fiber.

That is the plan. I have templates for the bottom deck plate as well. I would make them from fiberglass or carbon fiber, but the aluminum strips will be embedded in the mold, so I still that that sort of "unibody" structural strength still. So everywhere you see a strip of aluminum on the body, that will be laid out in the mold after an initial not complete layer is laid in and allowed to harden up enough to make sure the surface will be smooth and the strips will stay tucked hopefully in the middle of the mold. Will make it where I can almost have most of the parts ready and be closer to a bolt on situation. Next step is to setup my own frame jig. Similar to KMX but I want to adjust a few things, and want to raise the body height just a smidge higher. Partly raise in seat frame, and partly changing the pitch of the rear drop outs and the front geometry to match. Makes me wonder if anyone has done adjustable ride height on a trike. Out in the country with no cars you can go faster and lower, in town around more traffic going slower, increase ride height for better visibility, since you would be likely going slower in town and busy areas... Just thinking out loud..

 

[macribs]

@rborger do remember that carbon fiber and aluminum does not mate well together. It will suffer galvanic corrosion sooner or later.
Either switch to steel, like light cromolly or you need a protective layer of fiberglass over the alu parts before embedding the aluminum parts in carbon fiber.

If you put some time into the carbonfiber design your could dismiss the aluminum altogether while still remain structural rigidity and torsional strength. Especially if you use vacuum bagging for the epoxy you will be certain that the epoxy fusion is total when working on carbon fiber. And the strength of carbon can easily be stronger then steel while much much lighter. In other words, if you first are doing carbon work, it could make sense to do a full carbon structure both for strength and weight.

Oh and carbon fiber looks the tits too 8)

 

[rborger73]

@rborger do remember that carbon fiber and aluminum does not mate well together. It will suffer galvanic corrosion sooner or later.
Either switch to steel, like light cromolly or you need a protective layer of fiberglass over the alu parts before embedding the aluminum parts in carbon fiber.

If you put some time into the carbonfiber design your could dismiss the aluminum altogether while still remain structural rigidity and torsional strength. Especially if you use vacuum bagging for the epoxy you will be certain that the epoxy fusion is total when working on carbon fiber. And the strength of carbon can easily be stronger then steel while much much lighter. In other words, if you first are doing carbon work, it could make sense to do a full carbon structure both for strength and weight.

Oh and carbon fiber looks the tits too 8)

Perhaps then fiberglass with carbon fiber more as a finishing coat over top. The aluminum strips, or whatever metal I find that is compatible, are key as to how it will attach, and due to that many attaching points it adds a lot of body rigidity. Im not sure I could get the same results with just carbon fiber. Possible I'm sure though. I've got to experiment in carbon fiber and see how I do with it. Fiberglass I'm good with . I did own a body shop for years, and managed a big dealership body shop as well. Sort of my wheelhouse hehe, but never delved into carbon fiber. Developing the shape of the body shell the way I wanted to, this seemed to be the only way to build the first one. Once I get the mold of this done, then I can really smooth things out and make it look like a shiny little drop of love. hehe.

Thanks, btw. I hadn't yet looked into carbon fiber and aluminum issues. I had an idea that there might be problems.

 

[rborger73]

rborger73, I just saw your post on "Your Creation's Before & After Pics"

Really nice job on the aluminum fairing, the trike looks clean and professional

Do you have a temperature sensor in the MXUS motor? Do you overheat when doing a series of strong accelerations? I have a Cromotor mounted to a 16" wheel on my trike and it will reach 100degC quickly under repeated hard accelerations.

I disagree about the stability at speed on a kmx trike. A couple of things increase stability, one thing is large diameter front wheels. The tiny 16 inch front wheels are more jittery than 20 inchers. Also a steering dampener solves any instability problems.

Interesting Matt, I went from the regular 16" KMX front wheels to 22.5" fat tires recently and they are definitively less stable. I have yet to try the 20" KMX wheels though.

I ran it about 14 miles month or so ago. I could barely get the motor warm. Are you running adaptto for it? I know the cleaner sine wave seems to produce less heat. Thanks on the compliment. More detailed final pics coming soon. Bout to drag myself back out to work on it in a few mins here. Final detail stuff taking a while as I'm being pickier.. partially cause I don't think I want to deliver it. lol

 

[macribs]

The fiber glass layer can be just one tiny layer, as long as it isolates the aluminum from the carbon fiber.
Btw - kevlar might work just fine with aluminum. Check that with your local shops and maybe you can just make kevlar the inner skin?

There are software that will let you run simulations to find how many layers of carbon fiber you will need to reach the level of strength you are targeting.
If you are not using prepeg carbon fiber I would say it is not much different then working with fiber glass. Except that the mold must be way more fine tuned then what is needed for fiber glass, as you would like to have a perfect finish on the end result - and you can not easily sand carbon fiber like you would fiber glass. Using vacuum bagging is probably the easiest and fastest way. Another great thing with carbon fiber is when you first have a working mold, making replicas are simple and straight forward, and they will be just as good as the one made before. No stress worrying if the welder has got the shake from drinking too much the night before :lol:

They are now making carbon fiber wheels for cars, motorcycles etc that are DOT and ECU rated and approved even for regular road use as well as track use. Also complete frames, swing arms and what not in carbon fiber. If made properly and with enough layers in the parts of the construction that encounter most stress, a fully carbon fiber construction will be stronger then steel, and much much lighter. For optimum strength it is however recommended to cure in an auto clave with heat and vacuum. Many shops working with epoxy that have auto clave will let you rent theirs for "a sixpack of homebrew and a few bucks of stripper money" :lol:

 

[adam333]

I have a Lyen controller. It is limited by the CA to 7.5kW right now. That could be the sine wave.

 

[rborger73]

The fiber glass layer can be just one tiny layer, as long as it isolates the aluminum from the carbon fiber.
Btw - kevlar might work just fine with aluminum. Check that with your local shops and maybe you can just make kevlar the inner skin?

There are software that will let you run simulations to find how many layers of carbon fiber you will need to reach the level of strength you are targeting.
If you are not using prepeg carbon fiber I would say it is not much different then working with fiber glass. Except that the mold must be way more fine tuned then what is needed for fiber glass, as you would like to have a perfect finish on the end result - and you can not easily sand carbon fiber like you would fiber glass. Using vacuum bagging is probably the easiest and fastest way. Another great thing with carbon fiber is when you first have a working mold, making replicas are simple and straight forward, and they will be just as good as the one made before. No stress worrying if the welder has got the shake from drinking too much the night before :lol:

They are now making carbon fiber wheels for cars, motorcycles etc that are DOT and ECU rated and approved even for regular road use as well as track use. Also complete frames, swing arms and what not in carbon fiber. If made properly and with enough layers in the parts of the construction that encounter most stress, a fully carbon fiber construction will be stronger then steel, and much much lighter. For optimum strength it is however recommended to cure in an auto clave with heat and vacuum. Many shops working with epoxy that have auto clave will let you rent theirs for "a sixpack of homebrew and a few bucks of stripper money" :lol:

Reminds me I should weigh the body while everything is still apart today. The shell might add 10lbs at most, and that is including the aluminum diamond plating. 65lbs fully loaded with hub motor, batteries, etc. Ya that is probably the reason I'll hold off on carbon fiber for a bit. Maybe once I get a mold that Is perfect with fiberglass.

 

[rborger73]

I have a Lyen controller. It is limited by the CA to 7.5kW right now. That could be the sine wave.

Well with the adaptto and Mxus 4t nothing got super warm. Controller or motor and I was full throttle most of the time as I was seeing how close to the 55 to 60mph top speed the customer wanted I was getting, got it btw. Well 58.9 and I've tweaked a bit more since then. Should find out this weekend for sure. "trying" to get the last few things done between now and the weekend, so fingers crossed.

 

[Lurkin]

Spent fair amount researching doing both Fibre glassing and using other composites well before replacing you aluminum shell. Yes, it can be done, no, it's much more difficult to get a really decent product in a diy situation. Composites are notoriously difficult to actually know the finished products strength and are much, much more messy to deal with. A vaccum can assist with removing excess resin (note it is the fibre in either casr which has the strenght NOT the resin) as can baking the product to fully cure it without overdoing it. I found it really hard to come even close to a properly designed and manufactured product. If you want to do a tidy job, it really pays to get to know someone in the industry...

 

[rborger73]

Spent fair amount researching doing both Fibre glassing and using other composites well before replacing you aluminum shell. Yes, it can be done, no, it's much more difficult to get a really decent product in a diy situation. Composites are notoriously difficult to actually know the finished products strength and are much, much more messy to deal with. A vaccum can assist with removing excess resin (note it is the fibre in either casr which has the strenght NOT the resin) as can baking the product to fully cure it without overdoing it. I found it really hard to come even close to a properly designed and manufactured product. If you want to do a tidy job, it really pays to get to know someone in the industry...

This is for future builds as I'm trying to develop a few custom models to sell, this is the first trike prototype, it probably will stay the same, or I'll redo the sheet with aluminum sheeting for a brushed look. Local guy paying me to build it, but it is essentially a demo for future builds. He has a local mechanic shop along with a race car shop. Ton of people from around the area hang out there, and he loves showing things off. Basically I got the parts all covered for my demo, and it will be close by to show someone first hand, plus I have it long enough to do all my media on it I want. I'm also a photographer and videographer and editor as a secondary career.. I've worn many hats hehe.

But just going to build them one by one, and see where it goes. I now have material lists and know what my basic costs will be. Have templates and everything figured out I need to now. Being able to produce the deck and the shell, just leaves me to building a frame jig and then I can start producing at least the frames and the shells as needed. Sourcing from KMX is just too much of a hit for all the more in materials it will cost to build my own frames. Theoretically I can build a trike frame and shell rather cheap. Probably find deals on the components I need. Think it was 1300 something for the KMX trike assembled and shipped.

So I could fairly quickly put one together if I welded a few frames and molded and prepped a few sides and cut out the deck plates. Going to build one for myself and do first custom frame see how it goes maybe by the end of the summer.

Fiberglass I'm very confident I'll have no problems. I owned, worked in, and managed body shops for many years and still do body work on the side when I have time. Even with the fiberglass I'll still have a metal framing embedded into the mold. I will redo any surface blems before I paint by hand. Wish I had access still to the 100,000 + booth we had for spraying then baking at the dealership I managed though. hehe.

 

[macribs]

Spent fair amount researching doing both Fibre glassing and using other composites well before replacing you aluminum shell. Yes, it can be done, no, it's much more difficult to get a really decent product in a diy situation. Composites are notoriously difficult to actually know the finished products strength and are much, much more messy to deal with. A vaccum can assist with removing excess resin (note it is the fibre in either casr which has the strenght NOT the resin) as can baking the product to fully cure it without overdoing it. I found it really hard to come even close to a properly designed and manufactured product. If you want to do a tidy job, it really pays to get to know someone in the industry...

Vacuum also ensure no air bubbles are left behind to weaken the structure. That goes for the curing in auto clave as well.

I've worked with even fairly large carbon fiber structures in the past, even did white water kayaks in carbon fiber. The one that worked with me on those products did the simulations and we cured in auto clave. The hardest build we did was a snowmobile frame in complete carbon fiber, a racing one off that was rigid and strong as you would not believe. The hard part is the tooling, and making the mold as it needs to be perfect for great strength and finish. But as he is considering even maybe making more trikes I am sure time spend on tooling and molds will be worth it. Even the frame of the trike and swing arm could be carbon fiber. As the price has gone down drastic over the past years now is the time to make custom carbon fiber parts. Material is rather cheap compared to what it used to be, and all man hours spend on design, tooling and making the perfect mold will result in a unique product that leaves competition in the dust. And when you first got your mold, well push repeat. As he got extensive experience in doing fiber glass body work he is familiar with the process, and to step up and use carbon fiber should be much easier for him then the common man. And it would make sense to rather put money and time into making a frame of his own rather then buying the frame from KMX and then start custom work.

But as you said, auto clave is a almost a must to best possible strength during curing.

 

[rborger73]

If I did carbon fiber I'd probably first do the mold in fiberglass, get my aluminum strips properly setup, do the finish work on the fiberglass to get it perfectly smooth, then do layers of carbon fiber over top. We have a heating and cooling business in the family on the same property I work, so have vacuum pumps and would just need to order the plastic bags I've seen available. Its the cost of the learning curve with CF that sucks.. lol I've put out some feelers to find someone well versed in it locally to help me get the process down when I'm ready for it.

 

[rborger73]

Just an update. Have apparently a hall sensor blown. Customer is going to play with it in sensorless mode for a week or so while I order all new hall sensors while I'm in there, and upgrade the phase wires a smidge since I'm having to take it apart anyways. But here are the pics. Still haven't finished getting my logos on it yet. Seat is going to have some modifications before July. Vinyl side panels stitched in, and my logo and company name in place of the kmx seat logo. Will have decals on the rear arms as well, and a Amoev decal for on the display with a smaller Adaptto under it. I figure since many of the displays have no logo that is ok since I paid for it. Anywho here are some pics.


I'll still be working on it from time to time, as this is my demo sort of "proof of concept" vehicle. Even if I added another 10Ah there is room for a trunk of sorts. I'm building an aluminum frame for the seat. Basically it will be hinged on the front frame of the seat, have a latch in the back at the top of the seat, and swing up and lean on the pedals giving full access to everything inside. There will be a space about 1 foot deep and 12" x 6". Like a small trunk. May be even more room than that I'll measure it tomorrow.

With 10Ah at nearly full throttle on a charge and only taking the 20s down to about 74v I did an easy 14 miles with it. This thing would be lovely to commute in. Model #2 might just be mine. lol WOULD LOVE FEEDBACK! Please, no worried replies of crazy ebikers ruining it for all. Just positive thanks please.

 

[Chalo]

A wheelchair for those who are so desperately incontinent that they must speed between lavatories.

Nice if you need that sort of thing.

 

[Wheazel]

Ok, I'll give feedback on what I think.

I think the design is lacking. It might have big power and good components, but what was your thoughtprocess when settling for those covers on the sides?
Takes away all the looks of the vehicle and looks flimsy in my opinion.

Making the wheelbase a little longer might have been an intresting concept to get more space for stuff behind the seat, calming the steering at speed, and increasing ridecomfort slightly.
Personally I wouldn't have done this type of project without suspension, and I would have worked harder to improve the design, to make it more unique overall. Especially since you want to put your companys label on it.

 

[rborger73]

Ok, I'll give feedback on what I think.

I think the design is lacking. It might have big power and good components, but what was your thoughtprocess when settling for those covers on the sides?
Takes away all the looks of the vehicle and looks flimsy in my opinion.

Making the wheelbase a little longer might have been an intresting concept to get more space for stuff behind the seat, calming the steering at speed, and increasing ridecomfort slightly.
Personally I wouldn't have done this type of project without suspension, and I would have worked harder to improve the design, to make it more unique overall. Especially since you want to put your companys label on it.

Flimsy? Covers on the sides? The whole thing is a solid unibody dude.. I've done 60mph with it, and had it going down the road at 45 yesterday doing S turns.. The "covers" aka the unibody has enough room to carry about 40Ah of batteries stacked in the back.. The thing is more solid than you have any idea.. lol The lower deck is diamond plate aluminum.. This thing is the farthest you can get from "flimsy".. I rode it 14 miles straight one day and never thought I was not comfy at all.

In short, did you read any of the thread, or have a clue of what you are talking? Poor design? wow..

Suspension honestly it doesn't need. This forum is really lacking lately.

This is what it looks like without the covers..

Here is the bottom custom cut diamond deck bottom.

The bottom plate has aluminum angle all around it's base, and the aluminum angle attaches to the deck and the aluminum strips..

Bottom decking solidly attached to the main frame at several points. Then aluminum strips to make the frame. which are all attached to the bottom decking and the seat frame.

Then 22 Gauge sheet metal was used between each aluminum strip and riveted to each strip they touch. Joining all of them together into solid unibody construction.

On top of that the rear seat frame is attacked directly to the frame right at the split for the rear drop outs. The strongest part of the frame, via a slightly flattened pieces of Aluminum angle flattened out. There is no flex in the frame at all on turns

Even the bracket I made to hold the Adaptto display is cable of literally picking the entire trike up by. I've tried it. It attaches to the lower part of the body and the seat frame, and ALSO stiffens the body up even more..

Here is a glimpse of inside the "flimsy" body.. Before it was finished out. There is actually room for a trunk and I could still fit another 15 Ah with no problems.

The front is also all metal, all connected together... If you don't know what Unibody construction is, and are calling this trike "flimsy" in any way while looking at it on your tiny phone screen or whatever it is you are using, maybe next time don't even comment. PLEASE post whatever you've build so we can see your quality of work..

 

[Eskimo]

Your design is great. I mean, that aluminium covering looks really good. I would buy that thing if it would be on sale around here.
All i am thinking (again), is that with good aeroshell that thing would go miles

 

[Ratking]

Hard to satisfy all the guys on ES But I really hate the attitude from some of the safety guys. I hear rumors about a guy called Safety that made life sour for several members here earlier, it seems that some carry on that spirit. I hope that you just see past them and do what you want to do. You are not accountable to them in any way and will not gain anything by conforming to their view(other than living a slower and boring life )

On another note, someone can critique your design without having to build something them self, It is just a matter of taste

 

[rborger73]

Your design is great. I mean, that aluminium covering looks really good. I would buy that thing if it would be on sale around here.
All i am thinking (again), is that with good aeroshell that thing would go miles

Thank you. I am also upgrading the phase wires and new halls on the motor as well. Once it is rolling it has very little urge to slow down. So even with only 10Ah on board it had no prob doing 13 or 14 miles on a charge with lots of room to spare running it literally as fast as the road allowed.

I could have welded an entire frame and made it way heavy. The idea was to make it light AND strong. Which I did I think. At around 65 to 70lbs I can hold it at chest level in front of me off the ground, and it still can do 60mph.

I'm going to be working on making molds of the sides over the coming months. Unless the customer decides to start running it off road, I don't think it needs any other suspension honestly. I likely will build one with the bolt on from suspension for 800 over the next year or so though. Already have 3 or 4 locals wanting to buy one after they saw it first hand yesterday.

 

[rborger73]

Hard to satisfy all the guys on ES But I really hate the attitude from some of the safety guys. I hear rumors about a guy called Safety that made life sour for several members here earlier, it seems that some carry on that spirit. I hope that you just see past them and do what you want to do. You are not accountable to them in any way and will not gain anything by conforming to their view(other than living a slower and boring life )

On another note, someone can critique your design without having to build something them self, It is just a matter of taste

It's rather frustrating. I mean I don't mind a cautious bit of advice once, but I had to explain over and over again in just this thread, how the customer knows the risks, is a race car driver.. He has a ffing gorgeous polaris trike that looks like the batmobile. Other than it being gas I was drooling...

I can't believe these things are only 27,000 or so. Identical to his.

The etrike is parked next to it now. I'll get a pic in the next few days or next week with it next to it.

 

[adam333]

Its always nice to see the pictures showing the bike progress under construction.

Like it of not, there is obviously a lot of work involved in this trike, imho, rborger73 can be proud of it.

just a question, the rear wheel is a 16" moped tire? which one did you chose? and what is the rim width ?

 

[rborger73]

Its always nice to see the pictures showing the bike progress under construction.

Like it of not, there is obviously a lot of work involved in this trike, imho, rborger73 can be proud of it.

just a question, the rear wheel is a 16" moped tire? which one did you chose? and what is the rim width ?

I believe it is a 19" moped rim and tire. Teslanav on here I got it through. Think it was laced in Washington state. Beautiful job. There are some motorcycle shops that lace rims here, but ebike motors I'd rather have someone do it that knows their stuff. I can't recall but I think it comes out to a 21 to 22" overall. 20" on the front. I had to go almost 20mph in a hard turned circle to get one of the front wheels to lift off the ground in testing it.

I still have to do a good video of it, and maybe people will get a better idea of the trike a little more. Not sure how someone thought I made and hung a couple side covers on the "flimsy" thing. lol This thing is a tank. Before I did the final touches on the body I had a couple people push on it like you would to check a tire being flat, or the strength of a fender. Ridiculously solid. I over built everything on it. I owned and managed body shops, so I absolutely could have welded up frames and done it that way. I may try to however sell all the pieces as a kit for KMX owners. My final frame I'll be producing will be a bit different but the part where the body actually attaches will be the same. This basically would be a bolt on kit. The rear deck could also be pre wired with all the components and sold as a kit with motor, body kit, controller, etc. The sides would already have the aluminum strips pre drilled and all they would have to do would be line the sides up, drill the holes in the seat frame and bolt it on. So from the beginning I wanted to avoid anything much over basic tools for assembly. Also cuts down on welding gas costs, and the electric required it eats up as well. Wire.. etc.

So cost, strength, and light way easy to obtain materials. Aluminum strips, angle, and diamond plate is available at any lowes or home depot. The deck plate was around 35 and I got it cut out by the shop. I have a full sheet metal shop, but they had better ability to cut it without cut off wheels, or saws. I could probably get it down to 20 to 25.00 if I ordered these pre cut.

For this trike I think there is about 80.00 of aluminum, maybe 8.00 in sheet metal, most of which was already scrap pieces since we have customers for the sheet metal shop. In reality the body cost 100.00 in materials. I'm building an aluminum seat frame just out of wider strips like 1" wide. Basically making the seat hinge at the very front, and making a latch at the top rear seat tube. This will allow the seat to be easily opened to gain access. There is a large area in the very back from the seat itself down to the rear deck for hauling half gallon of milk, loaf of bread, probable 3 or 4 more small items. Or throw the charger in there layer it with some foam.

So maybe another 40.00 total in materials for the body. Under 200 anyways. Now probably looking at 250 or 300 doing the body out of fiberglass and or carbon fiber. Now if I can produce each body the same and have molds and all my materials pre cut and ready to go. Someone could put one together in a weekend using a stock kmx tornado frame. Lots of options here, but the key for me was again strength, low cost and easy to obtain materials, as light weight as possible. And this is a steel frame even, not aluminum. I have to price out all the components yet for what is on the tornado to see what I'll save doing my own frames. I imagine it will be considerable just due to the shipping costs of the trike. 2 or 250 I think in shipping alone. Soon as you sit down on the thing you start smiling.

I've got 14,000 miles on a hard tail ebike that weights 115lbs. So when someone questions the comfort of this cushy seated legs up resting etrike, I think we must speak a different language. lol I suppose I could have built a sketchy steering huge bulky thing instead.