Newbie Needs Expert Build Advice- Car free 2012

[RelaxedBrax]

Watsup everyone!?
I am Braxon.
Want to start by saying wow how grateful I am that a resource like this exists and thank you all for your efforts...Very impressed with the lack of commercial advertising too btw.

So I ended up here because I have been having a moral crisis recently. I have fully realized just how evil the automobile can be; how they have caused me much stress, money, and even threatened the lives of myself and family. Nevermind the fact that I live on the gulf coast of Florida and have witnessed first hand the devastating effects our insatiable desire for petroleum.

I have been joyfully riding my old chinese 50c scooter as much as possible for the past few years, but she finally checked out on me.
So I decided I was going to buy an old enduro and ditch my car for good, UNTIL I DISCOVERED THE STEALTH BIKES. Wow!
I could not believe such a kick ass bike existed, and the idea of freedom from the pavement (and DMV ahem) fascinates me.
Unfortunately I dont have 7-10K for a bike, and I knew I could build one for a fraction. Then I discovered Endless-sphere

SO I have my next project to obsess over
Now I have spent a few days searching these here forums learning the basics of batteries, controllers, hub motors, downhill frames, etc.
But I would really appreciate if you guys with actual experience to tell me how realistic I am being and shoot me in the right direction.

My needs/wants;
I live in a coastal town that is perfectly flat and totally paved- kinda sucks yes.
People drive considerably fast- 35-50mph
My commute is short >5 miles each way to work, about 6 to campus.
I want to go very fast, as fast as possible, lets aim for 50...I want to pass cars with a shit eating grin
I would like to have a 20 mile range at a 40+ mph pedal assisted speed, possibly more at lower electric speed.
My car is not worth much so I am hoping to put a budget at say $1500-2000. less is better as excess fundage goes back towards school and beer
Minor maintenance is not a big worry. Its gotta be less than a car, gas, insurance, etc argh

I am thinking I would like to go with a rear hub for simplicity, something gearless, highly wound?
Now top speed is a priority, but it would be super wiked if I had enough torque to chop through the soft sand on some beach shortcuts
I started looking at X5's, the 5302 i think, but weight seems like an issue. I also read good things about 9 continent hubs on ebikes.ca
Also considering BMC high power "black lightning" but they are pricy.

As far as energy storage I figure why not shoot for 72V right, more power the better.
I like the idea of making my own Ping LIFEPO4 because of durability and maintenance, but open to other chemistry, maybe recycle some of these LION laptop cells?
Other things to consider- HEAT, like 85-90 degrees... MOISTURE, check yes also

Lastly the bike/frame itself will be the trickiest to acquire on the cheap here in flat Florida. I am under the impression I will need a pretty solid downhill/freeride frame, and would like full suspension. The thing is I might have to go with a hardtail because I want to mount the components in an aluminum enclosure in the frame and have a buddy with some serious metalworking skills. I am looking for something like this kinda http://images.craigslist.org/3n63k93pf5V65T65S1b89cd741d0ad545124f.jpg
This will all depend on budget I guess

So basically I want to build a stealth bike for a lot less

Am I shooting for the stars?
What kind of problems might I face?
Any pointers?
Thanks,
Brax

 

[wesnewell]

$280 shipped for a 48V 1000W kit.
$33 shipped for a 72V 40A controller. (You can sell the original controller for more than $33)
$600 for 5ah 24s3p (15ah, 1500Wh) Lipo.
$150 for Genesis V2100 26" FS bike with front disc brakes at Walmart.
That should get you close to 50mph top end and more than 20 mile range at slower speeds.

 

[neptronix]

If you want to pass cars going 50mph, you'll need a big budget.
The only motor that will do that without blowing that i know of is the big 24lb crystalyte hubs.

That will require a shit ton of amps too just to cruse so you're not going to be in ping or laptop cell territory.

For example, i use 30 amps to cruise at 35mph while pedaling on a particularly efficient motor. The power requirements go up exponentially from there.

You may want to consider going motorcycle at those speeds. The speed limit is 20mph for electric bikes in the USA ( with a few exceptions up to 30mph ) so you are seriously asking for trouble.

Wesnewell, have you gone over 50mph on your ebay kit? I don't think it is anywhere adequate for what Brax wants to do.

 

[wesnewell]

No. Best I could get was 43.1mph. Might get 50 with a 29er, and 100lbs less body mass. I'm 270lbs. Personally, even 40mph is too fast for me on a bike. I think that's about as close as he'll get without special motors and controllers, which would put him way over budget. 28S lipo might do it, but I'm limited to 24s with my controller.

 

[neptronix]

wes, it's not weight, it's aerodynamics that become a big issue at those speeds. The only hub i can think of that can take the > 50 amps needed to go over 50mph is the crystalyte motors.

Otherwise you will overheat an ordinary DD hub that way if you maintain 40mph or over.. wheel size or weight does not matter.

Almost burned my hand running my 9C hub at 3000-3200w constant ( 72v/36a ) when checking the temp.. that was only after 15 minutes of riding. I am surprised that it survived. I was only going 35mph average, and 39mph tops on a downhill.

The only 'daily rider' bikes with this kind of power are ebikes that look like motorcycles due to the battery load needed.. you guzzle amps at those speeds. And with a Crystalyte 24lb hub that can handle those speeds, you won't be picking that bike up or carrying it that often....

A motorcycle is so many more times suitable.

 

[FMB42]

Do yourself a favor and stick with a DOT approved vehicle.

 

[dogman dan]

Don't even think about riding in traffic at 40+ mph on that piece of crap genesis bike from wallmart. The next better bike at wm up the price range is my fave, the mongoose blackcomb. It is good to about 30 mph, maybe 35. But I would not consider it a good choice for a high speed bike. Those cheap bikes have cheap brakes, and thin tube frames prone to high speed wobble. Your moped was much much stiffer. So you need to be looking at bikes that MSRP in the $1000+ price range. Find it much cheaper used of course.

The other fly in the ointment is, assuming you are in the USA, your 40 mph ebike is actually an illegal, unregistered, uninsured, homemade motorcycle. In some places they will ignore you, in others they will slap your stupid ass down with huge fines. Remember, you aren't talking about sneaking a bit of fun riding here and there. You are going to be out there double dog daring them to bust you daily. They will get around to it eventually. It could be done though, if you are riding in gridlock, where you never really get to 40 mph. GC in DC is a good example of that. Nothing wrong with riding a fast bike, just riding it fast noticeably is the problem. If you are out there cruising at 45 mph in with the traffic, sooner or later a cop will go woah, where's his licence plate for that thing? While sneaking out to test my 47 mph track racer, I got this from every car that saw me,

Here's my advice. Buy that enduro. Used, it will be cheaper to buy than a safe 50 mph ebike. Then, build a close enough to legal ebike, IF you have a safe route to ride it on. Something like the genesis or the blackcomb, and 48v speeds up to 30 mph flies under the radar of the cops just fine.

Lastly, regarding motor heat. You can push a typical hubmotor to 45 mph for 5-6 miles no problem. So it would work for a commute as short as his. The probelm of getting caught going that fast is the issue.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

Dude, 50mph on a bike is such a bad idea. You can lose your lower jaw going down at that speed, which means you'll need a full-face helmet, which means you'll be on a motorcycle as far as any cop who watches you ride by.

My bike (48-volt) with a direct drive motor on the front can top out at about 28mph on the flats and it feels fast. If I'm in a flat, wide area with no threats, then 28mph feels fine, but any faster would be sketchy. There's a hill I go down on the way home from work, and I sometimes crouch to see how fast I can go. I believe I might have hit 34mph, and at that speed there's no way I could have avoided a problem (rabbit, dog, car, etc.). And going down at that speed would have been a nightmare.

I only did that (max speed) a couple times to see what the bike could do. Most of the time I coast down that hill sitting upright and usually hit about 29-30, which is still pretty fast (and my hands are on both brakes, ready to grab if necessary).

If you go 50mph on a regular basis, you're going to eat it eventually. Having a bike capable of high speeds is one thing (you might need those bursts of speed in certain situations), but to ride daily at 40-50mph is asking for trouble on many levels: Trouble for the bike, trouble for you, trouble for your body, trouble with the law, and trouble for the rest of us who are riding E-bikes.

Those STEALTH bikes you're talking about: They aren't called Stealth because they are covert, hard to see. No, they stand out like a sore thumb. In the dirt they are great, but what is meant by stealth is more in the military sense. If a soldier used one in the field, then it would be stealth in comparison to other forms of transportation. Marines and soldiers could make great use of them, and they would serve that purpose.


For riding a bicycle (e-bikes are bicycles, not motorcycles) the idea is to NOT attract attention. So the battery should be as inconspicous as possible, the motor relatively quiet, and the rider should look like a bicycle rider. Cops have very little interest (especially outside of major cities) with bicyclists. They won't even notice you as you pedal by, with them unaware that you are under motor power.

But at 50mph you won't be pedaling, you'll be in tons of gear (with a big motorcycle helmet) and they'll notice that kind of speed. It'll annoy them.


Have you considered the Yamaha TW200? It might just be the coolest dualsport motorcycle ever. It's so cool that it has a cult following. Check it out and you'll see why.

Here's one stock:

Here's one cosmetically modified:

Look at the back wheel on those puppies. They can climb straight up the Empire State building covered in mud and seaweed.

They top out at about 65mph, and on the low end are designed to dig trenches for the military.

There's no denying that they are the low-speed badasses of the motorcycle world. I want one. You've sold me.

They're about 4 grand new and can be had for about 2 grand used and in good condition. Some people buy them and then rarely ride them. So, like boats, you can find them ten years old with just a couple thousand miles on them if you take your time and search hard.

Entire forums and clubs are based on these bikes.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

One more thing about the TW200: They make the Prius look like a gas guzzler.

 

[scotticeberg]

Ewww, don't buy a motorcycle. Build that e-bike, just keep it under 30mph.

If you do go the motorcycle route, make it an electric motorcycle.

 

[dogman dan]

Nothing wrong with that plan. Just complicated, but doable in the usa. Florida though, I've heard is a bitch for the law clamping down on e scooters and such. Something about not being able to get a registration for some of the more powerfull electric scooters. You want to research it if you start leaning towards something like that. Make sure you can get a plate for what you plan on.

But if you can find a safer route than the 50 mph road, the idea of a quick electric bike is still a good one. The typical 9 continent or similar ebike kit, plus 72v battery can briefly hit 40 mph. But that doesn't mean you have to ride it like that constantly. Just reaching 30 nice and fast, then cruising at that speed can be just fine. 12 mile round trip, hell, 30 mph will be just fine.

I'd suggest an 18s lipo battery setup. That should get you right about 35 mph. Then ride it at less than 30 mph on backstreets for the most part. Bear in mind, anything over 20 mph is likely illegal. So you do need to hide your ride some.

Re the stealth bikes, that's just because they are quiet compared to gas dirtbikes. They aren't street legal ebikes, nor is there anything stealty whatsoever about a 50 mph electric bike. 50 mph bicycles get stared at for sure. Your dream of passing em at 50 is sure fun, I know, Iv'e done it. ( at 47 mph anyway) But I was really watching for cops while doing it too. Not riding during rush hour, I was sneaking it out early in the sunday am. It's a blast, but not how you want your only transportation to be, a big bust waiting to happen.

The cheapest thing still remains a 125 or 150cc motorcycle or scooter though. In florida, that 200 Yamaha would be sweet to take to Daytona beach.

 

[Pure]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. Sure a 50 MPH bike is cool, but for every day commuting, you don't want to constantly be doing those speeds. I have a friend who is JSO, he knows all about my bike. He pretty much agrees that as long as you aren't riding like a douche bag (read constantly going 50mph) that they pretty much ignore bicycles.

Now build a bike that's capable of those speeds, and knowing hen to use it is a totally different story. Having the ability to hit 50mph in a hurry (pulling tons of amps for acceleration) can save your life some times. So I say go for it, just ride with some sense and be safe about it.

Oh and for your motor needs....hurry up and get in on the new X5400 series group buy. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=30718

 

[RelaxedBrax]

Hmmm, Ok so I thought I would hear 50 is a little unrealistic.
I would love to be on a tw200 and even tested an old yz250 and really was having a lot of fun- too much actually.
But at this point I feel like I would rather light a big pile of dollar bills on fire than give it to the clerk of courts, dmv, red light incomplete stop camera corporate nazis, big oil spilling, bureaucratic bastards
Also I know if I owned the enduro I just would not be able to resist taking a spin on the beach and down the back alleys, wherever i feel , and doing that on a two stroke thumper is really gonna draw attention and piss off tourists. And pissing of tourists is asking for it. Thats why the bike is so much more appealing, its quiet and stealthy, in a big grey area and most people around here are either not gonna notice or care. I can strap my board on it and cruise right to the shoreline. I'm not really worried about the police around these parts, they cut most locals some slack, plus I am pretty familiar with the roads less traveled and plan on using the unsupervised routes away from the watchful eye of big bro. I kinda want to double dog dare the community to rethink transportation. If they were to give me shit it would start a great social dialogue and probably sell a bunch of e-bikes.

I do care about keeping my lower jaw though as I'm quite attached to it, and it to me I need a very sturdy frame and solid suspension and brakes.
I realize that a bike is only capable of so much, but honestly I dogged the hell outta my bored out deathrider chinese scooter everywhere for years and only ate it once, not to bad other than a little lost skin (boardshorts, flipflops a cap and rum runner lunch are not always so great ). That thing was verrry poorly built (turns out brakes ARE as important as throttle) and shook like a paint mixer @ 50 but I still stand. I wish I could ride a fast e-bike and see just how solid they are at speed, but I have been keeping a watchful eye and I have never seen a single ebike around here. They must be able to be made better than these $600 scooters everywhere. DOT approval or not.

I hope I am not gonna cause myself a big headache but I figure its worth a shot. If one man can do it why not another right.
I'm pretty technologically adept and while slightly complex these bikes aren't rocket science. I mean damn the bloody chinese have them why not the grand old USA. I just hope I am not overestimating the capability or reliability of the technology, being they are mass produced and imported.

Maybe a cruising speed of ~35 is more on target, I would like to have the ability to get a spurt of power here or there. Im a lightweight for sure so it sounds like the crystalyte X5 will push me along pretty quick, along with a hell of a lot of batteries.

So not to be a dick but I'm really not asking if you think I should buy a motorcycle or not.
I am looking for experienced advice on what the best hub motor for my needs are. I was thinking Clyte 5302 but I also read somewheres they are redesigning thier product line for lighter weight/ better efficiency.
I also need to spend some time researching the best ~72v battery pack, as that seems to be where the cost/range/reliability factors out.

Any info or tales of past lessons appreciated.

Brax

 

[RelaxedBrax]

oh damn just read the last couple posts. Ok thanks I think I'm gonna get in on that X5403 groupbuy Pure, gotta get some cash together.

 

[mvly]

oh damn just read the last couple posts. Ok thanks I think I'm gonna get in on that X5403 groupbuy Pure, gotta get some cash together.

Yeah I think the X5403 is the only one I am confident that you can hit 50mph on. Just know that you will need some serious Lipo battery, charger, controller, and a full suspension bike to be able to handle 50mph+ safely. I have done 52mph downhill and yes the wind is the real problem you have once you are above 35mph.

Expect to pay quite a bit on the setup. Don't cheap out on the bike since you don't want the thing falling apart at 50mph.

 

[dogman dan]

OK go for it. We just wanted you to know that 30 mph is very easy and relatively cheap, and damn fast for bicycling. 35- 40 mph is still not too hard at all, just a matter of slapping 72v onto just about any stock dd ebikekit motor using a lyens 12 fet controller or equivilant.

Above 40 mph is where the $$$ really starts to fly outta your wallet. You simply get really diminishing returns from a few more volts as wind resistance increases. It begins to be a problem how to carry a battery that big. Starts to completely lose any kind of still looks like a bike. You start melting motors if the ride is more than 8 miles unless you fork out big bucks for the strongest motor. You start making rookie mistakes that short out controllers as the motor bolts from the bike and cuts wires.

We've all done it, and it cost us time and money. So don't listen to us.

Seriously, get a stock kit with a controller good for 35 amps at 48v. Get 4 , 6s lipo bricks. Learn to make a good torque plate, and run your bike at 48v for a few weeks. After some testing at 2000w, then get yourself a lyens 12 fet controller and go for 18s.
By next year you will know what your budget needs to be, and what you are looking for in the bike frame to build your 24s monster bike.

Or, just fork out some serious bucks right now and get a stealth bomber. They have done the expensive experimenting for you.

I don't want to tell you don't build a 50 mph ebike. I just want to say get some experience at 2000 watts first, using motors that fit the bike out of the box. It's like you want to race, and start with a winged sprint car. We're saying, drive a stock car for a season first.

 

[Pure]

Not to harp on you, but one more thing to consider about going that fast on a bike. Cars see you, but you are a small object moving very fast, and one they don't expect to be going that fast. Then add to that that allot of drivers are dicks =s they will pull out in front of you. In reality 25-30 mph is my comfort zone on my bike. Yeah I can go faster and I do when on back roads but for traveling with traffic I prefer to take it easy.