noob bike selection help

[exe]

Hello all, first post.

I'm new to ebikes and new to bikes. I found a 2003 Kona Stuff in my local area (Victoria BC Canada) and wondered what you guys thought about it? I haven't gone to see it but the seller says it's in like new condition selling for $265. It's almost 10 years old. I'm 5'8 and the bike is 17.5", if I go with the 'virtual top tube' size and the stand over, it's about my size.

I will check to make sure the dropouts are 135mm apart when i go see it. The specs are in this link:

http://www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/BikeSpecs.aspx?Year=2003&Brand=Kona&Model=Stuff&Type=bike

 

[senoritoriver]

the only downside to that bike is the aluminum forks. your conversion will have to be rear wheel now.

 

[dogman dan]

In good contition, I'd pay that for that bike. What's the intended use? That's a sturdy frame, but not much room for the battery where you want to carry one, in the front frame triangle.

Something else might be better, if you plan on riding really long distances. If under 10 miles is your need, this frame is quite fine. Low standover is nice if you don't need a huge battery.

 

[exe]

Just heard back from seller, it is sold. He said it is a 1993 bike!?

My intentions are to go initially 10miles 20mph, and eventually for it to the bike to be more useful, 20miles 30mph. Victoria is a little hilly, about 5% grade at most. I'm not fit and had a hard time paddling up that 5% 1/2 miles ride, I had to get off a shop test bike and walk up the hump. Interestingly, the same shop had an electric bike ($3k) and it also couldn't climb up that hump, I had to walk it up as well.

I am having a hard time looking for bikes primarily because I don't know anything about bikes. I'm really left with looking at some used but in like new condition bikes, they don't come up too often. This is the second one I missed out on. There is a Kona Stinky dual shock for $500, look like a great bike, but I won't be able to judge how good the condition of the bike is.

 

[Chalo]

That's a sturdy frame, but not much room for the battery where you want to carry one, in the front frame triangle.

I don't think I've ever seen a frame mounted battery so narrow that my knees wouldn't rub on it when I pedal normally (I'm a little knock-kneed). It's a nice thought, putting the battery amidships, but pedaling is more important to me than any possible benefit of battery placement.

I gotta say, I have seen some really graceless splayed pedaling from other riders of e-bikes and motorized bikes, too.

Chalo

 

[dogman dan]

True enough. 4" is about as wide as comfy pedaling gets. But mostly, by the time they have a 7" wide battery pedaling is not even contemplated. The ping on it's side is not bad to pedal around, but you might brush your legs on the box.

For the second time today, my ping carrying box on the longtail. I feel I pedal pretty normaly around this box that fits a 48v 15 ah pingbattery. But that size ping wouldn't fit into that kona frame he was talking about.

 

[dogman dan]

But you don't want to do this.

The combination of a rear box for the battery and the motor on the rear makes this bike very twitchy to ride. It's tolerable if you have 5 pounds of RC lipo in the box for a short ride. But put a 15 pound 48v 15 ah pingbattery in that box, and it rides like a real dog. Not completely unridable, but I'd hate it if the ride was more than 5 miles.

 

[dogman dan]

The Trek 820 is a good example of a good type of bike for a street commuting ebike. http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/sport/820/

It's a sturdy steel frame, has a shock front fork, 7 speed shifting compatible with the 7 gear sprockets on rear hubmotors, can fit a decent size battery in the frame triangle, and is fairly reasonably priced new.

It's not a complete piece of dung like similar looking bikes at wallmart for $150. But those wallbikes can be used if you are willing to add a few things to them, like a sturdier crank and a better seat.

Combine this bike or one like it, (specialized, giant, whatever) with a typical rear hubmotor kit and a 48v 15 ah pingbattery and you have a nice commuters tool. 25-30 mph and about 20 miles of range at that speed. 5% grades will be no problem for any typical kit.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Even though you're 5'8", you're going to want a large frame size for a conversion. 19" would be better. 17.5 is small but might be workable. the idea is to be able to stuff the center triangle full of batteries for the best weight distribution and handling.

A Trek 820 is usually the bike I recommend to strangers and noobs, but a Kona Stuff is a great bike to convert. Although the Stinky would be even better for off road, the Stuff would be better on the street at 20mph and much easier to convert.

As for motors, a 9C or a MUXUS being run at 48 volts or more will handle those hills fine. A geared hub MAC or BMC would do great as well. a 36 volt, 350watt prebuilt bike isn't going handle hills very well.

I'd personally go with the Stinky, though. And did.

 

[exe]

Thanks for the 820 suggestion, it might go well with 420 lol. Do I buy my size or size up? My initial plan is to just use my own power to work to get fit, then in another 6 months electrify it. I can ride year round here in Victoria. I need the aerobic workout; I hope I dont end up just doing the thumb throttle exercise.

Also drunkskunk, why would the stinky be more work than the Kona Stuff? And would you suggest I stay away from used bikes since I have no bike experience?

 

[motomech]

the only downside to that bike is the aluminum forks. your conversion will have to be rear wheel now.

Actually, the lowers are probably magnesium and mini-motors can be mounted in them. Lots of us have.

 

[Drunkskunk]

The recessed rear dropouts on the Stinky make fitting torque arms tricky. its easier to make your own, but you need the tools and skills to be able to do that. The rear disk brake is a tight fit, and often needs custom parts or unorthodox mountings to be used to make everything fit. And being a full suspension bike, getting everything to fit around the suspension without binding or kinking can be tricky. Its a great bike to convert, but not a simple bike to convert.



You will need bike maintenance experience with an electric bike. a normal motor can be putting out 10 times a normal human's power, and that extra force on the bike will cause higher maintenance and wear.

So with that in mind, I recommend a used bike, because what you learn making the bike ride-able will be of great value to you later. its pretty easy to learn, pretty easy to master, and pretty easy to have fixed if you totally phuq something up while learning.

 

[dogman dan]

Part of why I recomended a steel frame MTB for the first one. Much easier on the first ebike conversion to not have to deal with rear dropouts that make mounting a hubmotor harder to do.

Generally, it can be hard to fit a good torque plate to full suspension bikes, and many FS bikes make carrying a battery in the frame triangle impossible or problematic. There are good solutions, particularly if you are experienced enough to be using RC type lipo batteries.

Here's a saddle bag style battery box carry on my dirt trail riding bike. Gets the weight up front, but not too far up front. Pedaling is no problem, this bike needs no pedaling at all.

But it sounded to me like you wanted a reliable commuter, so I pointed to a bike that is a good starting point for road use ebikes, and still affordable new, or near new.

Used Full suspension bikes can be a bit tricky if you know nothing about them. You might not realize that shock shouldn't feel like that when you ride it. But if it's new enough, damage is unlilkely. If you do get a chance at one at a good price used, do try to make it one with frame space, such as the Kona Drunksunk showed a pic of.

There is a full suspension bike like that ( meaning the open frame space, and shock location) at wallmart, called the genesis. Better than nada, but it's truly a cheap bike. Good design, but cheaply made. Mo better to get a front only suspension in a better bike in many ways.

Figure on a bike like that needing a replacement, or major upgrades within a year of use. But it can make an ok starting point for street use. The genesis is NOT dirt worthy.

 

[exe]

OK thanks for the bike advice. I do need something reliable and low maintenance, plus I do need one to learn the ins and outs of so I can fix things myself going forward. I have a co-op bike place near to me so that should help some.

For that 820, it doesn't look like I can put a disk brake on it, is that right. And also, I assume I don't need to mess with torque arms etc... just put in the hub motor? Do I get my size or size up (considering I want to ride and learn bike mechanics for the first 1/2 a year).

I will try to look around to see what I can find used, single suspension, otherwise I'll go check out the 820. What about a cromoly or steel road bike with no suspension? The roads here are generally pretty good. I was thinking of a bikesdirect internal hub road bike, it would require front mounting hub motor, I have no idea what the front dropout spacing is:

http://bikesdirect.com/products/mercier/kilott_wt5.htm

I was wondering all you ebikers, do you also have a regular bike in your stable that you use to paddle short distances?

 

[exe]

I found 2 more potential bikes.

Used Trek Navigator 2.0 bike. It has a threaded headset of unknown size.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/town/recreation/navigator/navigator_2_0/#/us/en/model/features?url=us/en/bikes/town/recreation/navigator/navigator_2_0

Used Trek 4500 WSD, yes I know it's a women's bike.

http://www.trekbikes.com/ca/en/bikes/2007/archive/4500wsd

 

[Brentis]

I suggest you scour the local ads Craigslist, Kijiji, etc. for a Strong Gts-210.
See the link StrongCommuter in sig.
These were sold coast to coast @ Canadian Tire a few years ago.
The are all dead or dying @ this point & can be found quite cheap.
I just got one for $200 w/"new" battery & a blown controller, doesnt matter.
Perfect ebike to convert to new tech.
I had to drive to Hamilton ON, 3h round trip, well worth the time & gas.

 

[exe]

Brentis, I found one near here, but it's $800. I also found a Canadian Tire Schwinn i-zip $300 (they sold new for $350-$500). If I can convert it to lithium easily, is this something to consider?

http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/0711519P/no-schwinn-i-zip-electric-bike-reviews/reviews.htm

 

[Brentis]

Be patient & keep looking.

I had an Izip 2008. It was Ok as a cheap beginner ebike.
They can be made to go faster (30mph) with upgrades.
I would recommend ditching the brushed chain drive & going to a hub motor setup though.
It is noisy, heavy, & inefficient in comparison to whats available in a hub.
Easier to over power a brushless hub when your ready as well.
Seriously though hold out if you can for a Strong. Its a much better ebike design, while still being a bike.
I paid $400 for one $200 for the other. I am happy with both prices.
Be Patient Grasshopper

 

[dogman dan]

Yes, Trek 820 is a bottom of the line bike, so I believe it just has rim v brakes. V brakes are suitable for riding up to 25 mph IMO, but that could be different if you will ride in the wet. Disk better in wet for sure.

The main thing I wanted to get through to you, is look for features like the trek has. Large frame triangle openings that allow a battery to carry there. Strong frame in steel if possible is good for the first bike. If alloy, then at least look for rear dropouts that are fairly thick, and as much flat space as possible for installing your torque plates.

Various frames may or may not have disk brake mounts, even if they come with a v brake originally. Disk front brakes can be had with a different fork fairly easy, and only the very cheapest suspension forks come with no disk mounts these days.

Re womens bikes, another way to have battery carry space is a womens step through type frame. Then a large battery can be carried quite well on top of the top tube. Similar to that Strong frame in a way. Works suprisingly well!

Definitely snap up a Strong frame if you find one cheap.

 

[Chalo]

Yes, Trek 820 is a bottom of the line bike, so I believe it just has rim v brakes. V brakes are suitable for riding up to 25 mph IMO, but that could be different if you will ride in the wet. Disk better in wet for sure.

V-brakes well set up with Kool Stop red oxide pads are better than most OEM disc brakes, wet or dry. V-brakes well set up with Kool Stop red oxide pads and a booster arch are stronger than most discs of any kind. And your bike's rims won't warp out of shape because you warmed them up with a hard stop from high speed. Nor will rim brake pads burn off down to their backings in less than 20 miles of hilly streets like my first Hayes disc pads did.

Discs get wet and become weak until they wipe themselves off, and some of them honk horribly until they dry. Only difference between them and rim brakes in that regard is they tend to dry themselves off faster than most rain can make them wet. Also they tend to stay up out of the mud and slime when that's a factor.

A V-brake (linear pull brake) is a mechanical disc brake with a 560mm rotor, you know? (Unless it's a 625mm rotor.) Here's the one I made for myself when I wanted the most powerful brake available. (That was before Shimano brought their V-brakes to market.) When I lived up on top of West Seattle, this bike reached 55mph just about every time I rode it to work:

And here are some linear pull brakes that did the job at over 120mph in racing conditions:
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/honda.html#rc113

No bicycle disc brake can touch either of the above for braking force or energy dissipation. Even regular old V-brakes on a regular old sturdy rim can convert a lot more kinetic energy into heat before something fails.

Discs do have advantages-- they are easier to set up, they are not dependent on the rim being in good repair, and often they give more braking power with a lighter squeeze at the brake lever. But the conventional wisdom that disc outperform rim brakes is not only oversimplifying things, it often isn't true at all.

Chalo