Noob electric longboard

[disastorm]

Hello,

I was searching electric longboards and found this forum which looks interesting since the people here mod and create their own. However, I am a noob and don't really know anything about skateboards, longboards, or mechanical engineering. I know a little about electrical engineering since I majored in Computer Engineering, but since then I've been into software and havn't really done much other than playing around with a Roomba.

After reading through some of the threads, Is the following correct?
In total, you need:
a motor ( either belt or hub )
an "ESC" which controls the speed and braking, and then you need to program it with an "LCD Program Card"
batteries
A radio system so that you can use a wireless handheld controller device to interact with the ESC. There is some kind of system that involves a wiimote controller that seems common?
(optional) A power switch
an enclosure
a deck, wheels, and trucks

Is the following correct?
The battery has a certain amount of mAH, Cells ( denoted by "S" ), and a Discharge rate ( denoted by "C" ). What exactly do these things mean in terms of performance? mAH is the duration/range? Cells determine power/speed ? What does the Discharge rate mean, most of the builds I've seen use 20C?
Additionally, putting 2 of the same batteries in parallel increases the duration/range ( doubles? ) and putting them in series increases their power/speed ( doubles? ). Is this correct?
Additionally, how do you design the circuit to connect everything together? I would guess something like the batteries connect to the ESC which is connected to both the wireless controller and the motor? How can I be sure all of the voltages and amps and whatnot work well together between all of the parts ? I've seen some people use microcontrollers like arduino ? What is this for, is it for the wireless controller?
How do you charge the battery?
What tools do I need ? nuts/bolts and a drill ?
Is there any other additional things that I missed?
Thanks.

 

[lox897]

Series doubles the S rating and leaves the mah at the same rate. Example: 3s 5000mah in series with 3s 5000mah = 6S 5000mah

Parallel doubles the mah and leaves the S rating. Example: 3s 5000mah in parallel with 3s 5000mah = 3s 10000mah

Do you have hills in your area? Tell us your budget where you will use etc then we can help you along with your build. Nice job so far!

 

[lox897]

To charge batteries you need a charger. These can be bought from HobbyKing. The IMAX B6AC is a good charger for up to 6s and if you want to get higher than 6s then you can get an iCharger.

Tools may include: A drill, Loctite, Nuts and bolts, Velcro to mount things or adhesive tape.

 

[disastorm]

Thanks for the info.
I live in San Francisco so there are alot of hills here although I don't plan to use it on the steep ones. To be honest, I'm not sure what I'll use it for, but thought it would be a cool alternative method of transportation within the city, so I would say that would be the primary use of it. The budget doesn't really matter. I got alot of my info from this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=72923&p=1106807 so I may try to make something similar to that, although I noticed he mentioned he gets 6-7 miles with hills so I was hoping I'd be able to increase that by a little bit, perhaps a third battery in parallel? I think 6S should be enough for me. What does the Discharge rate ( The "C" ) affect??
I noticed he uses 2 ESCs. Do you need one ESC for each motor ?
Also, would you recommend a 42 inch board for travelling around San Francisco ?

 

[lox897]

I'd say just to be safe get 8s. It will be future proof if you ever want to do some bigger hills. This battery in series with another of the same battery would get you 8s 10000mah so maybe about 12 miles no hills. Here's the battery: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__64438__Multistar_High_Capacity_4S_10000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_US_Warehouse_.html

The only problem with that battery is that you won't have as much clearance with the ground. You could always just find a 4s 8000mah in series with another 4s 8000mah and get a bit less in range.

Another great option is the Enertion SPACE cell. It's more expensive but you get 10s and I think it's 7000mah (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

One ESC per motor that's right.

Whatever board suits you. Don't get a deck with concurve (a curve in the deck) because it will be harder to mount things. Maybe get a drop thru deck because electric skateboards use 83mm or 97mm wheels and you don't want to get wheelbite when you are turning (the wheels hit the deck)

 

[tremendo]

Whatever board suits you. Don't get a deck with concurve (a curve in the deck) because it will be harder to mount things. Maybe get a drop thru deck because electric skateboards use 83mm or 97mm wheels and you don't want to get wheelbite when you are turning (the wheels hit the deck)

Do you have any suggestion for a good deck?
In terms of concave deck, as long as the underside is flat, it should be OK to mount the electronic components?
How do you attach battery and ESC to the deck? Do you need a plate?
I was told not to get a drop through because of clearance issues.
Thanks,

 

[lox897]

Do you have any suggestion for a good deck?
Loaded Vanguard are cool.
If you have a concurve it will be harder to get the enclosure on.
To attach battery and ESC velcro or adhesive tape.
I think you mean drop down because of clearance.

 

[whitepony]

Loaded Vanguard are cool.
If you have a concurve it will be harder to get the enclosure on.

vanguard is really more of an advanced diy level imo - its built to flex which can be problematic for selfmade enclosures, batteries, you name it. if you want to play it safe, look in the downhill direction - stiff boards, stable at high speed, locked in feet that give you the grip you need to carve hard. yes, they usually have strong concaves, but usually they also have a 12-14cm wide w-concave middle section which is flat enough to attach the stuff you need to attach.

I used a landyachtz topspeed, my colleague gave it a run for 30-40min and he wants one as well now because it just feels really really great to ride and especially to carve beyond 30kph+. you can lean so low that you can touch the pavement and it feel supersafe thanks to the locked in feet, very precise turning, very stable at high speeds but still turny and there is a lot of "snap" in these giant supersoft wheels. alternative boards are rayne savage/avenger, earthwing road killer 2015, arbor highground/vügenhausen and the 1 million other boards of that shape. beware of the "smaller" boards in that shape though - like icone interceptor, hackbrett ripper, nelson prime - they are all around 33" with smaller wheelbases.

I found that I needed a wheelbase of 27.5"+ to manage to get my stuff in between the trucks. remember, that manufacturers wheelbase is calculate from the inner mounting holes, so you can probably add 2-3" to get axle->axle distance. I needed a clearance of about 6cm behind the front axle and 11cm in front of the rear axle with the dual motors (to avoid potential wheelbite with the enclosure). the topspeed axle to axle distance after my modifications was 81cm. substract 17cm leaves you at 64cm -> my battery & electronic package is 58 x 14 x 2xm, so even without my mounting position mod on the top speed, I wouldve managed to squeeze in the stuff under the board. its just something to keep in mind - should have a rough dimension estimate of your electronic package before you opt for a board.

 

[sl33py]

Welcome Disastorm!

You didn't mention your weight? How fast do you want to go? Your range will depend a ton on riding the flats vs hills, and how heavy you are, and how fast you accelerate. If you are lighter, riding the flats, and giving a couple good kicks to start (vs using motor) you can greatly extend your range. But that's not nearly as much fun as accelerating like a bat out of hell from a stop. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

I agree the vanguard (or any deck with flex) will make your setup much more difficult. Even on stiff decks i personally prefer separating my batteries (in the front) and the Rx / ESC (in the back). Leaving the center clear both for flex and any impacts if it goes over a bump/curb. Also makes it easier to grab under your arm with the thin deck only in the middle.

Drop deck boards do make clearance a challenge, but not necessarily impossible. I'm S L O W L Y . . . building a drop deck setup w/ an Omen Chief deck. I would say the pack thickness and wheel size would be critical, plus you basically have to use the DIYes motor mounts since they are fully 360* adjustable for allowing exact motor placement to clear the drop. A super small "micro-drop" deck would probably clear using the Enertion motor mount which has a more limited adjustment. You can usually add a riser under the trucks for some additional room.

Attaching the batteries to the deck - i've found some good quality 3m dual-lock velcro works really well. I usually have a less robust velcro strap get captured under the bottom velcro so i can bring it over the battery as a secondary/failsafe strap just in case.

Here's an example on my GF's Vanguard 41:

I'm planning on some Kydex or GF/CF enclosures next to protect the batteries from impact. Check out squad's, okp's, and psychotiller's enclosures if you want to see some absolutely impressive work that i cannot come even close to duplicating...

My suggestions would be:

DIYes or Enertion motor mount(s)
Single motor - DIYes sensored 50mm w/ 15mm wide belt (single 15mm belt is higher drag, but more surface area (vs "standard" 9mm belt) for accelerating and braking).
Or Single / Double Enertion 63mm R-Spec 190kv motor.
83mm Flywheel or flywheel clones
Paris or Caliber trucks. Enertion only uses Caliber trucks mount.
Batteries - 2 x 3s batteries from Hobbyking. to start. you can go with more later if your ESC can accept >6s lipo.
Tx/Rx - Flysky or Hobbyking GT2B. Later you can modify into 3d printed badwolf v2 enclosure to make it smaller (see link in my sig for how-to).

ESC - VESC is still my preferred. Enertion has some left i believe. Or Torque's/DIYes 12s opto (i'd check if his sensored ESC is available before ordering).

Your speed will be dependent on wheel size, voltage, motor kv, and gearing.
83mm - 190kv (r-spec), 6s - 15t (motor) - 36t (wheel):

Diameter		Motor KV		Battery S/V		M pully		Hub pulley
								
83		190		6		15		36
								
Speed= KPH	29.729604							
Speed= MPH	17.9094							
actual speed	15.043896

Great starter setup w/ 15mph limit. going to 9s (adding 3rd 3s battery in series) would give you a top speed of 22. Then finally going to 12s (all else still being the same) would give you a top speed of 30mph! I might like the additional "punch" and acceleration on 12s but likely would either re-gear (go to 14t motor pully) or set a max rpm in VESC. (13t = 26, 14t = 28mph).

Lots of info - hope it makes sense and helps! GL!

 

[disastorm]

Thanks guys thats alot of info.

I weigh around 165 lbs. Maybe somewhere around 20mph would be good enough for me. Does the S of the battery affect the range at all or is it just the mAH ?
For example, would 10000mAH of 8S get the same range as 10000mAh of 6S assuming same speed?
And is there a certain C value that I would need to get or does that not really matter ?

What is the main advantage of having 2 motors instead of one? Does this affect the battery life since it now has to power 2 motors ? I was originally thinking of getting the Carvon hub motors instead of a belt system. Does that limit my battery selection?
It sounds like some of you say drop through is difficult to mount. So the alternative is to get the top mount style?
Also do you have to charge each battery individually ?

 

[tremendo]

Drop deck boards do make clearance a challenge, but not necessarily impossible. I'm S L O W L Y . . . building a drop deck setup w/ an Omen Chief deck. I would say the pack thickness and wheel size would be critical, plus you basically have to use the DIYes motor mounts since they are fully 360* adjustable for allowing exact motor placement to clear the drop. A super small "micro-drop" deck would probably clear using the Enertion motor mount which has a more limited adjustment. You can usually add a riser under the trucks for some additional room.

If I use Enertion SPACE cell and CarvOn hubmotor with 90mm wheels, there should be enough clearance for a drop down deck?
I am considering a Landyachtz Switchblade (http://landyachtz.com/2015_Boards/Switchblade_38#.VhbIR25vD5U) which can have either top or drop through mounts.

 

[sl33py]

Thanks guys thats alot of info.

I weigh around 165 lbs. Maybe somewhere around 20mph would be good enough for me. Does the S of the battery affect the range at all or is it just the mAH ? And is there a certain C value that I would need to get or does that not really matter ?
What is the main advantage of having 2 motors instead of one? Does this affect the battery life since it now has to power 2 motors ? I was originally thinking of getting the Carvon hub motors instead of a belt system. Does that limit my battery selection?
It sounds like some of you say drop through is difficult to mount. So the alternative is to get the top mount style?
Also do you have to charge each battery individually ?

The C in batteries is pretty simple - C = current. A 5000mAh (5Ah) 20C pack will give you a constant 100A draw (says marketing... but reasonably close). Usually they will also note a "Peak" of 25 or 30C so 125/150A peak for a couple seconds. It's just the Ah x C Rating = Amps it can deliver. I usually try to get a minimum of 100A constant ability, though i expect i'm usually 30-50A. Battery life will be shortened if you are constantly at the maximum constant Amps it can deliver. =Heat. HEAT=short life. I have had a watt meter on my boards and with dual motors on 8s i saw my peak Amps around 65A. Not sure of average, but estimate 30-50A guessing.

20mph is pretty damn fast, and totally doable. It's really more about Wh than mAh. Wh is the voltage x Ah. So a 10s (for simple math) 5000mAh - 42v (10x4.2v) x 5Ah = 210Wh. Then you calculate mileage based on Wh. I don't remember the Wh per mile or per km. Someone chime in here or i'll look and add it.

2 motors vs 1 - Torque. Off the line acceleration, and climbing hills. But the most expensive addition as you need double the expensive components (motor mount, motor, ESC). Not much different to wire and minimal cost outside those three. Some more complexity wiring, but minor. Yes less range (slightly) but not in half. You can have less draw cruising vs 1 motor still working harder to keep a speed. Vedder has a whole writeup on the most efficient setup w/ rpms for motor etc. If you want to get into the nitty gritty...

Drop through is tough for motor clearance - a drop deck is also difficult but more achievable.

You can charge multiple batteries at the same time. I like BuddyRC's Paraboard brand parallel charging board. There are lots of others and cheap clones on ebay/hobbyking. It lets you take one Power input and split to 4-6 batteries (depending on board's layout). Most importantly for a paraboard - parallel balancing each cell. each battery then plugs it's balance plug into the paraboard to balance the packs cells while charging.

http://www.buddyrc.com/paraboard-v2-xh-xt60.html

I recommend swapping connectors on battery packs and consolidating to a single plug whenever possible. I like the XT60/XT90 plugs myself, but have used Deans for years. It's personal preference. The one advantage of the XT90 is there's a XT90 anti-spark plug that you can use to avoid the spark when plugging in your batteries. THe spark or pop only gets bigger as you go to higher and higher voltage (6/8/10/12s).

HTH - GL!

 

[sl33py]

Drop deck boards do make clearance a challenge, but not necessarily impossible. I'm S L O W L Y . . . building a drop deck setup w/ an Omen Chief deck. I would say the pack thickness and wheel size would be critical, plus you basically have to use the DIYes motor mounts since they are fully 360* adjustable for allowing exact motor placement to clear the drop. A super small "micro-drop" deck would probably clear using the Enertion motor mount which has a more limited adjustment. You can usually add a riser under the trucks for some additional room.

If I use Enertion SPACE cell and CarvOn hubmotor with 90mm wheels, there should be enough clearance for a drop down deck?
I am considering a Landyachtz Switchblade (http://landyachtz.com/2015_Boards/Switchblade_38#.VhbIR25vD5U) which can have either top or drop through mounts.

hubmotors - not really a lot i know about them... BUT clearance wise when you eliminate the motor bracket and belt you should have no trouble mounting up hub motors. Definitely gives you a lot more options even to a drop-through i believe.

The tradeoff (and why i don't run them) is for us bigger guys - you can't change gearing. I gear down for my weight and ability to still get up hills. It's set up with straight voltage to rpm depending on which motor is used. One of the hub gurus hopefully can chime in and give you more detail.

 

[disastorm]

20mph is pretty damn fast, and totally doable. It's really more about Wh than mAh. Wh is the voltage x Ah. So a 10s (for simple math) 5000mAh - 42v (10x4.2v) x 5Ah = 210Wh. Then you calculate mileage based on Wh. I don't remember the Wh per mile or per km. Someone chime in here or i'll look and add it.

Ah I see, so increasing the S actually does increase the range as well.

Will I need things like banana plugs and various things like that? If so what kind of connectors should I get and/or nuts and bolts?

What do you think about the batteries that lox suggested, 2X http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...pacity_4S_10000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack.html

He said that it might be an issue with not much ground clearance? What does that mean, the dimensions are 160 x 65 x 36mm so does he mean that 36mm is a bit large in terms of vertical space?

He also mentioned the Enertion Space Cell battery, although that seems to be a bit pricy, it comes with a charger, an on/off switch, built-in voltage display, and 10S3P with 270Wh. It weighs around 1.8KG and dimensions of 380mm X 140mm X 23mm so it looks like that would be shorter, at least in vertical distance of 23mm vs 36mm. It seems like these features might be useful as well, although its a little heavier than 2X the other battery.

Actually, it seems like I may be considering something similar to what tremendo has been asking about. Using the hub motors with the Enertion Space Cell. The only difference is I don't know if I want a drop or a top mount. What are the main differences between the types of boards? There is a Drop deck and a Drop Through deck ?

 

[tremendo]

I am attaching a picture of a drop down deck with drop through mount. Muir Skates has a section explaining different decks, mounts, trucks etc...
I am copying from their site:
Drop Through - for the beginner
If you’ve never gone fast on a longboard before, you will love (and appreciate) the stability that a drop-through deck offers. Drop-through longboards sit lower to the ground, giving the rider a lower (more stable) center of gravity, and help the fear of high speeds melt away. As an added bonus, any drop-through board may also be ridden as a top-mount! (Just mount the trucks the “normal” way — onto the bottom of a deck...) We feel that the drop through deck style is the best choice for a beginning downhill longboarder.

Drop Platform - for the beginner
The introduction of newer drop-platform decks like the Earthwing Road Killer and double-drop decks like the Landyachtz SwitchBlade may be the direction that freeriders are headed. The lowered platform on the drop platform (and double drop) decks gives riders an enhanced sense of stability and makes initiating slides much easier.

 

[disastorm]

thanks. So are you going for a Drop Platform? It seems like some people said a Drop Through would be difficult for clearance. Are Top Mount decks difficult for beginners?
I noticed on that Muir site, it also said that there is a Commuter Style deck shape described as the following:
"These top-mounted cruising boards have a lot of leverage over the trucks making them great for carving. By having the wheels placed at the very end of the deck, these boards have an increased sense of stability over the traditional cruisers."

So it would seem that those top mounted decks also have increased stability, at least in that shape.

What do you think about a kick tail? Is that useful on an electric longboard? I know that you can use a kick tail to turn a skateboard. Without a kicktail, is there a quick way to turn a longboard, or do you need to go through a full turning curve motion?

Also do you guys know if bamboo decks are usually flexible or stiff ?

 

[tremendo]

I'm just learning how to longboard using a Landyachtz Switchblade which has a drop down deck with drop through mount. The advantage of a deck with drop through mount is that you can change to top mount if you get into ground clearance issues.
As for kicktail, it will be very useful if you have to pivot to turn sharp corners, I think. But I am pretty new to this.
I heard that top mount boards with wide wheelbase can be quite stable but I haven't tried personally yet.
For the e-board I m planning to build, I may use Earthwing Superglider deck which is lightweight (3.4lbs) and flat on the underside to mount your electronics. It also has a kicktail. When I get my parts, I have to see whether the wheelbase has enough room to mount the electronics. I think it should be fine.
I always thought that the first item you buy will be the deck. Now I am thinking the opposite. It will be the last component to buy.
I'll be using mainly for commuting.

 

[Vulthor]

I'm actually finishing my build and have a Rayne Darkside deck with kicktail, also newbie in longboarding, got some ride with the deck without motors, and can already say that kicktail can help for turn, also can help in accelerations as it works a bit like a foot locker because of the shape.

Soon as I test my build and if I remind, will make some review.

 

[whitepony]

i would try to avoid bottle nose stuff, cause there is no natural mudguard. youll run through things every now and then. its particularly annoying with the evolve and wide axle pneumatic tires.

 

[elkick]

Just an example: drop-through (Rayne Piranha V3) with Enertion Cell, V1 Hub Motors and two VESCs. A lot of clearance there...

 

[disastorm]

Nice.
Btw what is the VESC everyone talks about as opposed to just ESC ?

 

[whitepony]

VeddersESC -> http://vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/

Imo a drop through or dropdown deck isnt really overly useful for electric skateboarding - its more of a convenience thing for pushing or for slightly easier sliding.

 

[disastorm]

Thanks, so is the Vedder ESC better than regular ones? It looks like its open source or in development, so do people buy them or make them themselves ?

Would any of these be good for an electric longboard:
https://www.muirskate.com/longboard/decks/70490/omen-sunsets-longboard-skateboard-deck-w-grip
https://www.muirskate.com/longboard/decks/70202/never-summer-2015-commander-longboard-skateboard-deck-w-grip
https://www.muirskate.com/longboard/decks/70111/landyachtz-2015-fiberglass-stout-longboard-skateboard-deck-w-grip

 

[tremendo]

From my limited understanding, VESP is much superior to ESC. V was added to ESC because of the the surname of the person who modified it: Benjamin Vedder who is a well respected member of this community.
I am buying from Enertion as I am not handy at all. There are other sources.
http://www.enertionboards.com/electric-skateboard-parts/vesc-motor-controller/

There is a recent build using drop deck. BTW, I have been reading from this site as well. You will see many familiar faces there:
http://www.electric-skateboard.builders/t/it-takes-a-village-to-build-an-esk8/292/11

 

[disastorm]

Thanks for the link. I was checking out the site and I noticed in the FAQ it mentions recommending to have a BMS (battery management system). I know the Enertion Cell battery already has one, but if buying a battery from HobbyKing, do any of you know anything about BMS?

If I were to get 2X this battery in series: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__64438__Multistar_High_Capacity_4S_10000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack_US_Warehouse_.html
Would this be a viable BMS: http://www.batterysupports.com/28v-29v-30v-60a-8x-36v-8s-lithium-ion-lipo-battery-bms-pcm-pcb-p-264.html
I guess I don't really understand the diagram on that BMS page. It looks like it shows 8 1S batteries connecting to the BMS. I'm not sure how to connect 2 4S batteries to it.
Maybe I'll just go the easy route and buy the Enertion Space Cell, do you guys know if the Enertion Space Cell battery comes with a charger? I know it can upgrade to a "fast charger" but does that mean it comes with a slow one?