NOOBIE HERE. Electric Motor Kit Reccomendation?

ElectricBikeNoob said:
My weight: 180~ lbs. (81 kg)
My bike : Trek Verve 3 (Hybrid)
---------------------------------------------------------
Motor kit for 700cc (28-29inch tires) with throttle and PAS

Desired top motor speed: around 20 mph (32kph) on level ground
Desired top speed while pedaling: between 20-30 mph (32-48kph)
Desired range: About 20 miles (32 km) with mild pedaling at around 15 mph (24 kph)
Will probably commute on average about 8 miles (16 km) a day

Terrain: 92% street 8% off road
Flat to mild hills, mild dirt paths and grass
-NO extreme mountain biking-

Brakes: Doesn't matter, as long as it works great and bike stops in the end lol.

Budget: $800 MAX
Click to expand...


Another option is too buy 2 chargers if you are commuting to work. This is what I did.
 
ElectricBikeNoob said:
My weight: 180~ lbs. (81 kg)
My bike : Trek Verve 3 (Hybrid)
---------------------------------------------------------
Motor kit for 700cc (28-29inch tires) with throttle and PAS

Desired top motor speed: around 20 mph (32kph) on level ground
Desired top speed while pedaling: between 20-30 mph (32-48kph)
Desired range: About 20 miles (32 km) with mild pedaling at around 15 mph (24 kph)
Will probably commute on average about 8 miles (16 km) a day

Terrain: 92% street 8% off road
Flat to mild hills, mild dirt paths and grass
-NO extreme mountain biking-

Brakes: Doesn't matter, as long as it works great and bike stops in the end lol.

Budget: $800 MAX
Click to expand...

Above 20 mph you aren't going to add much top speed for very long by pedaling unless you are an elite athlete, you will however increase your range significantly by pedaling even moderately. My experience is that pedaling hard up the hills and loafing or resting on the flats is the best way to use your human energy, you really don't want the full throttle speed up hills to drop any more than necessary, particularly with a direct drive motor such as the Yescom kit.

You might think you are going to ride at 15 mph but once you get used to it you are likely to find yourself riding at full throttle and 20 mph + most of the time unless you have considerably more self control than most of us.
 
teslanv said:
Best value for a decent Hub is a Yescomusa kit. Get a 1000W Rear Kit.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1000W-26-Rear-Wheel-Electric-Bicycle-LCD-Display-Motor-Kit-E-Bike-Conversion-/371289491857?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5672940991

Yescom's ebay user name is "xcceries"

Spend the rest on the battery.

You will need Multistar LiPo to get a battery to meet your specs in that price range.

Such as two of these multistars in series.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__72326__Multistar_16000mAh_6s_10c_US_Warehouse_.html

And let the "Don't recommend LiPo to noobs" responses commence... :p

But seriously. It can be done. You just need to educate yourself on WHY LiPo is cheap and more dangerous than various other Lithium chemistries.

BTW, the set-up I just listed will get you ~24MPH top speed and over 20-mile range on electric only.
Click to expand...



Wrooong!!

Times have changed, and now we have quality cells that are even cheaper than your multistar lipo!

Look:

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/samsung-inr18650-29e.html

You need 12S 6P, and they are even cheaper! (around 18%) LOL :lol: And will last much longer, and discharge rate is similar. And also samsung have much better power and energy density, not to mention reliability. Ok, you do have to assemble them, that might be a problem, but lipos are also not that straight forward to use.
 
My weight: 180~ lbs. (81 kg)
My bike : Trek Verve 3 (Hybrid)
---------------------------------------------------------
Motor kit for 700cc (28-29inch tires) with throttle and PAS

Desired top motor speed: around 20 mph (32kph) on level ground
Desired top speed while pedaling: between 20-30 mph (32-48kph)
Desired range: About 20 miles (32 km) with mild pedaling at around 15 mph (24 kph)
Will probably commute on average about 8 miles (16 km) a day

Terrain: 92% street 8% off road
Flat to mild hills, mild dirt paths and grass
-NO extreme mountain biking-

Brakes: Doesn't matter, as long as it works great and bike stops in the end lol.

Budget: $800 MAX
 
Most people can't build a reliable battery pack from 18650 cells. 29E cells are continuous rated at <3C and perform best at <1C where they still don't produce their rated capacity. They will sag bad under load even in a 6p 17.4ah rated configuration compared to a 10C continuous 20C burst rated 16ah rated rc lipo pack. I wouldn't use 29E cells if they were a buck each when I can use 20C/30C rc lipo that I can plug together in seconds for a pack for 33 cents per wh.
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung%20INR18650-29E%202900mAh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html
 
wesnewell said:
Most people can't build a reliable battery pack from 18650 cells. 29E cells are continuous rated at <3C and perform best at <1C where they still don't produce their rated capacity. They will sag bad under load even in a 6p 17.4ah rated configuration compared to a 10C continuous 20C burst rated 16ah rated rc lipo pack. I wouldn't use 29E cells if they were a buck each when I can use 20C/30C rc lipo that I can plug together in seconds for a pack for 33 cents per wh.
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung%20INR18650-29E%202900mAh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html
Click to expand...

Dude.. I am a NOOB....I understand none of this jibberish
 
Then you should either learn or stay away from any electric bike. Read the wiki to start.
http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Main_Page
 
ElectricBikeNoob said:
Dude.. I am a NOOB....I understand none of this jibberish
Click to expand...
Time to learn.
If you don't understand, you should want to understand.
If you don't want to learn, just go buy a cheap Currie or Sondors ebike.
This is a DIY community, and part of the DIY process is learning how to do something.
I will say that learning how to and building an ebike is as much fun as riding an ebike, at least for me.
 
wesnewell said:
Most people can't build a reliable battery pack from 18650 cells. 29E cells are continuous rated at <3C and perform best at <1C where they still don't produce their rated capacity. They will sag bad under load even in a 6p 17.4ah rated configuration compared to a 10C continuous 20C burst rated 16ah rated rc lipo pack. I wouldn't use 29E cells if they were a buck each when I can use 20C/30C rc lipo that I can plug together in seconds for a pack for 33 cents per wh.
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung%20INR18650-29E%202900mAh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html
Click to expand...

Please, lol. You know that icecube tested multistars and found out that they are 2.5-4C realistically?

Also, I'm actually using 29E pack, and it performs flawlessly. This guy is building a bike, why would he need 10 or 20C cells with relatively bad energy density? You want to have as small and as light as possible pack on your bike. 29E and multistars have aproximatelly same power density, but energy density in on 29E's side, and also a price if you are building pack by yourself. And that's only initial cost, 29E will last much longer, and be even cheaper.

Again, not to mention quality and reliability of these two, it's really impossible to compare.

So, lets sum it up, Samsung 29E have:

-same power density
-better energy density
-lower price
-better quality and reliability
-longer cycle and especially calendar life
-better consistency, less likely to get out of balance
...

It's true that they are harder to assemble, but you can actually buy a high quality assembled ready to use and charge pack, which cannot be said for hobbyking lipo.
 
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70169
I can't recommend anything without knowing what country you're in. Please follow the instructions for doing that.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
 
wesnewell said:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70169
I can't recommend anything without knowing what country you're in. Please follow the instructions for doing that.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66302
Click to expand...

United States.. Ohio
 
riba2233 said:
wesnewell said:
Most people can't build a reliable battery pack from 18650 cells. 29E cells are continuous rated at <3C and perform best at <1C where they still don't produce their rated capacity. They will sag bad under load even in a 6p 17.4ah rated configuration compared to a 10C continuous 20C burst rated 16ah rated rc lipo pack. I wouldn't use 29E cells if they were a buck each when I can use 20C/30C rc lipo that I can plug together in seconds for a pack for 33 cents per wh.
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung%20INR18650-29E%202900mAh%20%28Blue%29%20UK.html
Click to expand...

Please, lol. You know that icecube tested multistars and found out that they are 2.5-4C realistically?

Also, I'm actually using 29E pack, and it performs flawlessly. This guy is building a bike, why would he need 10 or 20C cells with relatively bad energy density? You want to have as small and as light as possible pack on your bike. 29E and multistars have aproximatelly same power density, but energy density in on 29E's side, and also a price if you are building pack by yourself. And that's only initial cost, 29E will last much longer, and be even cheaper.

Again, not to mention quality and reliability of these two, it's really impossible to compare.

So, lets sum it up, Samsung 29E have:

-same power density
-better energy density
-lower price
-better quality and reliability
-longer cycle and especially calendar life
-better consistency, less likely to get out of balance
...

It's true that they are harder to assemble, but you can actually buy a high quality assembled ready to use and charge pack, which cannot be said for hobbyking lipo.
Click to expand...
To match the capacity of the Multistars, you would need 12S6P of the Samsung 29E cells. I would not task a noob with assembling an 18650 pack. So OP would need to buy one.
Riba, if you have a source for a built 18650 pack like this for under $400 shipped, please share.
 
I read the first post and you have a Trek Verve 3? Aluminum frame, hybrid = front suspension with skinny tires (to reduce road rolling resistance)

TrekVerve.png

You asked about the BBS02 and that would be a good kit for you, except...your budget is $650 max. The best deals on the BBS02 are around $550 (with tax and shipping), leaving $100 for the battery, and the battery should be the most expensive part of the system, in order to get a good one.

First, you will want a small geared hub for two reasons. If you wanted lots of power, you have the wrong bike and too low of a budget...power costs money. First, geared hubs don't shed heat well, but you're in luck, you can't afford a battery that puts out more than 20A continuously, so a large diameter Direct-Drive (DD) hub is added weight and cogging (magnetic drag) that you don't need. A geared hub freewheels easily when you are not using power, and due to the small size of any battery you can afford, you will be pedaling half the time.

If you get a Bafang BPM, you could get more power later by upgrading the battery when it wears out a couple years from now, while only using 20A for now. If you are certain you will want a very light system, and will not want to hot rod it later, the Q100H is popular right now. Front hub is not a good idea on this bicycle, so shop for rear hubs only.

Just to give you an idea, Green Bike Kit has the BPM (minus battery) for around $200 (Plus T&S) when it is in stock. http://www.greenbikekit.com/electric-bike-kit-1/rear.html?p=1

and BMS Battery has a Q128H kit, which is slightly larger than the Q100H (minus battery) for $138...bearing in mind both these companies have high shipping rates to make up for low catalog prices. https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/400-q128-48v400w-500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

Shoot for 48V, you really need to sacrifice to get that because you need to limit the amps, because high amps will be bad for the motor, the controller, and the battery due to high heat.

You need a strong torque-arm, do not skimp on this.

Something that fits your budget THAT I DO NOT RECOMMEND, is to get a cheap ebay DD rear hub kit (yescomusa?) and a large LiPo battery with a non-balancing bulk charger. LiPo needs to have each cell balance-charged once a week. Cheap LiPo batteries that are only bulk charged, and don't have a reliable low-voltage-cutoff, and use cheap chargers that occasionally over-charge...they sometimes catch on fire. LiPo is not for someone who is new to E-bikes.
 
teslanv said:
To match the capacity of the Multistars, you would need 12S6P of the Samsung 29E cells. I would not task a noob with assembling an 18650 pack. So OP would need to buy one.
Riba, if you have a source for a built 18650 pack like this for under $400 shipped, please share.
Click to expand...

Since this is not a fair question and you know it, i will do the same, there can I buy a built pack with multistars, ready to charge and including bms?

If someone wishes to sell built pack, they have to pass some controls and certificates. Difference is, you can find built packs with 29E (no matter the price), but you cant say the same for hobbyking cells because pack built using those cells would never pass tests, and those cells are not meant to be used with EV's and in large packs.
 
Lengthy reply finally posted above.

I think you will be very happy when you can afford to add a $1200 system to your bike. The $600 systems I listed will not make you happy, but...they may satisfy you needs "just enough" that you will be as happy as anyone possibly can be with a $600 system.

If the actual out-of-pocket for the kit ends up being $300, that leaves $350 for the 48V battery, so you won't get much range. As long as you pedal a lot on the flatter terrain, a fairly modest size of battery can get you up the few hills that you have, without too much sweating.

For the fairly modest budget of $350 for the battery, you could get a little more range if you stepped down to 36V, but you have to make that decision now, because if you want to upgrade to 48V later, you would also have to swap to a new 48V controller.

If you choose 48V now, you can get more range with a larger battery in a couple years, or add a second battery in a few months.
 
riba2233 said:
teslanv said:
To match the capacity of the Multistars, you would need 12S6P of the Samsung 29E cells. I would not task a noob with assembling an 18650 pack. So OP would need to buy one.
Riba, if you have a source for a built 18650 pack like this for under $400 shipped, please share.
Click to expand...

Since this is not a fair question and you know it, i will do the same, there can I buy a built pack with multistars, ready to charge and including bms?

If someone wishes to sell built pack, they have to pass some controls and certificates. Difference is, you can find built packs with 29E (no matter the price), but you cant say the same for hobbyking cells because pack built using those cells would never pass tests, and those cells are not meant to be used with EV's and in large packs.
Click to expand...

Iipo is for high powered rigs and people who know what they're doing. Under 2kw you wouldnt bother with the hassles with lipo as there's no benefit as your controller/motor cant pull 40A+. That said, people who switched from safe technology to Lipo's felt that it was faster. Combination of lighter pack, higher consistent power output or maybe their old pack was ... old. Who knows.
 
ElectricBikeNoob said:
Dude.. I am a NOOB....I understand none of this jibberish
Click to expand...

LOL, you walked into the middle of a long ongoing argument, that post wasn't really aimed at you.

Basically the battery is the heart of any EV at the moment, motor choice is not really as important as battery choice because the battery tends to be the limiting factor and the most costly single part of any EV.

18650 cells are a similar shape to an AA battery but about twice the size, they are used a lot in laptop packs and the Tesla Model S electric car uses several thousand of them for its power pack. They are however difficult to put together into a pack since you have to either weld (better) or solder (not so good) wires to every single cell (about 72 of them to make a pack that would be minimal for your purposes).

Lipo on the other hand are rectangular bricks of varying sizes according to voltage and capacity and have wires already coming out of them that are fairly easy to connect to and you would only need to put two of a particular size together to build a pack but they are also somewhat prone to fires if not handled correctly, at least one poster on ES has burned his house down with a lipo pack when it caught on fire in his garage while he was charging it.

Trying to do it cheaply makes the decision matrix a lot more difficult, I ended up building my own pack from 144 laptop 18650 cells I salvaged from discarded laptop batteries but I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who already had well above average electrical and DIY skills to start with and it still took me quite a while to grasp the complexities. Definitely not something that you want to try as a N00b..
 
Raged said:
Iipo is for high powered rigs and people who know what they're doing. Under 2kw you wouldnt bother with the hassles with lipo as there's no benefit as your controller/motor cant pull 40A+. That said, people who switched from safe technology to Lipo's felt that it was faster. Combination of lighter pack, higher consistent power output or maybe their old pack was ... old. Who knows.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and that's reason why we shouldn't be talking about lipo in this tread. But again not all lipo is high disharge, and none of hobbyking lipo has realistic ratings.
 
Spinningmagnets makes a great case for geared hub motors. They are smaller, lighter and have no cogging resistance. But the main reason I like Direct Drive (a.k.a. "DD" or "gearless") is because they have the ability for regenerative braking. Regenerative braking serves two significant purposes: it extend the usable range on the battery, and it can provide significant braking force with the proper controller. In the hilly regions of the Northwest, this is a feature I greatly appreciate. Geared hubs and BBS02 mid drives cannot brake like DD hubs can because of the freewheel mechanisms built into the drive systems.
 
What is the consensus on Green Bike Kit as a seller? Are they reliable, trustworthy?
It looks like they have decent prices on batteries.

I like what spinningmagnets had to say, especially about RC Lipo, I couldnt agree more with the caution on that.
 
spinningmagnets said:
I read the first post and you have a Trek Verve 3? Aluminum frame, hybrid = front suspension with skinny tires (to reduce road rolling resistance)



You asked about the BBS02 and that would be a good kit for you, except...your budget is $650 max. The best deals on the BBS02 are around $550 (with tax and shipping), leaving $100 for the battery, and the battery should be the most expensive part of the system, in order to get a good one.

First, you will want a small geared hub for two reasons. If you wanted lots of power, you have the wrong bike and too low of a budget...power costs money. First, geared hubs don't shed heat well, but you're in luck, you can't afford a battery that puts out more than 20A continuously, so a large diameter Direct-Drive (DD) hub is added weight and cogging (magnetic drag) that you don't need. A geared hub freewheels easily when you are not using power, and due to the small size of any battery you can afford, you will be pedaling half the time.

If you get a Bafang BPM, you could get more power later by upgrading the battery when it wears out a couple years from now, while only using 20A for now. If you are certain you will want a very light system, and will not want to hot rod it later, the Q100H is popular right now. Front hub is not a good idea on this bicycle, so shop for rear hubs only.

Just to give you an idea, Green Bike Kit has the BPM (minus battery) for around $200 (Plus T&S) when it is in stock. http://www.greenbikekit.com/electric-bike-kit-1/rear.html?p=1

and BMS Battery has a Q128H kit, which is slightly larger than the Q100H (minus battery) for $138...bearing in mind both these companies have high shipping rates to make up for low catalog prices. https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/400-q128-48v400w-500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

Shoot for 48V, you really need to sacrifice to get that because you need to limit the amps, because high amps will be bad for the motor, the controller, and the battery due to high heat.

You need a strong torque-arm, do not skimp on this.

Something that fits your budget THAT I DO NOT RECOMMEND, is to get a cheap ebay DD rear hub kit (yescomusa?) and a large LiPo battery with a non-balancing bulk charger. LiPo needs to have each cell balance-charged once a week. Cheap LiPo batteries that are only bulk charged, and don't have a reliable low-voltage-cutoff, and use cheap chargers that occasionally over-charge...they sometimes catch on fire. LiPo is not for someone who is new to E-bikes.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your time replying! My new budget is $800 MAX lol....maybe I can spend $350 or less on a kit and the rest on a battery kit
 
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