Not very happy with my EM3ev emissions-free order

[dogman dan]

I have to agree, now that we have FINALLY seen how the motor was packed, that the packing sucked badly. I never doubted you, but now I really understand. I received one packed worse once, but not much worse. That was beyond substandard.

Pretty clear that whoever did the packing did not follow the normal procedure for it. Nothing to do with his choice of shipping, driving it across town in your own car could have nicked the wires in that box.

EM3ev is still trying to make you whole. Outstanding.

 

[cell_man]

The only problem with the packing in this case (in my opinion), is that the shaft was not adequately supported/protected. A large piece of styrofoam should be used on both sides of the motor to spread the load, to avoid anything coming into contact with the axle/phase wires and support the weight of the motor. So long as that is done, the corner sections are meant to reinforce the main carton and keep the rim centred, the cardboard corner sections are not intended to support the weight of the motor. Regardless of whether they are creased or not, the corners of the carton are intact and the rim is still approximately centred. The rim is thoroughly wrapped in a foam sheet and is a fairly close fit to the box, the length and width of the carton is maybe 2cm bigger than the rim radius, inner height of the carton is approx 250mm, the Mac rear axle is 205mm. Unless you make the box way over-sized and fit over-sized styrofoam in the corners, the rim will always come info contact with the sides of the carton. As I said, we wrap the rim in foam to avoid it being damaged and that has worked well for us in the last couple of years. I remember 1 case of our 1 of Alex rims being damaged in shipping in the 2 years or so we have offered them and that was a big chunk knocked out of it during shipping, short of a metal box, there was no saving that 1. We had several cases of the MXUS kits being damaged in transit, especially rims, although I do suspect the Alex rims are that much tougher and are not so easily damaged. We used to use the standard Mxus Packaging on those with styrofoam sections, the cartons were noticeably lighter and weaker than what we source ourselves, problems were primarily damaged rims. We ship a fairly large number of kits and there are very few reported cases of parts being damaged in transit.

I believe in the case of this shipment, that instead of a large solid piece of solid styrofoam either side of the hub (which is what should be used), instead some layers of a thick but flexible foam sheet was used instead. This will offer some support, but isn't strong enough to spread the load and avoid damage to the carton. I have discussed this in some detail already with my staff, I do not understand why they thought it was sufficient to not use this instead of something more able to take the the abuse, but it happened. We changed to a carton such as this in the last 2 or 3 months for shipping built wheels:



Why did we change from opening on the large faces of the carton and move to openings on the side? Primarily to reduce weight, as it is a struggle to get the Mac kits under 9 kg shipped with the carton. I've also tried to move away from Styrofoam as I think it is nasty stuff and would rather use something biodegradable. Maybe my intentions were misunderstood by my staff, as in do not use styrofoam, but until I have made an adequate alternative not using styrofoam, we will have to continue using it. Maybe they were trying to keep the weight down, as it is a struggle to keep a kit under 9kg of a kit without any additional items, as was ordered. Maybe it was even opened by customs and inspected, then not properly packed again, it wouldn't be the first time. Who knows and no offence, but the pics only show a carton with some damage on the sides, an axle is not poking through the side. There are no pics of the contents including the packaging and parts wrapped and cling filmed to the wheel and motor as we do.



Here is a pic of the typical material we use for most of our cartons:



Here is an empty carton, 700C, it weighs approx 2kg, a 26" carton weighs about 1.8kg, and that is before we add any internal packaging:



These are the corner sections we use and remember, they are not intended to support the weight, they are intended to reinforce the corners of the carton and keep the rim approximately centred:

View attachment 2

I do not claim to be perfect, I can't change what has passed, but I have done what I can to put it right. My staff take a lot of care and if something was not done right, it was an isolated incident and it will not happen again.

Thanks
Paul

 

[migueralliart]

Paul,

If you look at the picture I posted in the first post. The one with the damaged phases. You will see the only other packaging material used to protect the RIM.

Other than that only the corners were present.

I would've love to made an unboxing video if this is what you need as proof. Like I said before I gain NOTHING from lying here and I certainly did not. There was NO TYPE OF FOAM USED WHATSOEVER in the box. JUST CARDBOARD CORNERS and RIM PROTECTION.


I'm still feeling positive because I know more attention is going to be paid packing these kits from now on. This was not my case.

In the end when the customer was to "work" to get their brand new kit to be up to par with what it is advertised it will never be the best experience ever but I do thank you for sending the axle replacement with the phases.


Like you said I can't turn back time but If I could I would've liked to skip this order. I definitely enjoyed the other hubs I've purchased from your site and they all arrived packed appropriately exceeding my expectations. Unfortunately this is the case of I paid more for this kit (the other wheels were sub 200$) and I didn't get a better experience. Instead I have to dismantle the motor and solder the phase wires.

So conclusion ;

Yes I agree you have done your best to make sure I fix a brand new motor that has damaged phases.

and

Yes you replied to my emails promptly after I started this thread.

 

[cell_man]

Orlando

No offence, but it would have been better if you wanted to come on ES to make your point, to have also taken pictures as it was received and in various states of unpacking. I frankly do not think we would have shipped a kit with no protection whatsoever. It is very normal for parcels to be opened and inspected, both in China and when they reach the destination country. For you to come on here and state with certainty how the parts left us, is rather unfair to say the least and to then not back up your statements with pictures compounds the situation IMO. It is not unreasonable to demonstrate your points with pictures. I would suggest to anybody, if you receive a parcel in a bad condition from anywhere, take pictures of what you see to clearly make the point, especially if a proper carrier such as DHL, Fedex etc is used, as at least there is some comeback to the carrier or shipper.

I offered to send a replacement inner motor complete with gears and collect the problem part on my tab. Our courier can do this for a fairly reasonable cost. Whilst it is not my first choice method to deal with an issue, it is something I am happy to offer for this particular situation with a damaged cable. Swapping the inner motor takes all of 5 minutes, requiring a cross head screw driver and 6 screws to be removed. As a matter of course we ship motors disassembled a good proportion of the time to minimise shipping volume for DHL shipments, even newbies seem to manage this without any great trouble. We probably send close to 50% of our Mac kits disassembled like this, that way the volume is approx 9-10kg equivalent and approximately matches the actual weight. A 26" kit kit shipped fully assembled in a big carton is equivalent to 20kg volume and so is charged on the larger volume, not the weight. I'm sure as you know that most courier firms do a volume check, H*W*L in cm/5000. If the number is greater than the weight in kg, the package is charged by the volume, not the weight. It is not hacking anything to swap the complete inner motor as I offered, so I don't really get what the problem is with my offer. We build every wheel without the inner motor fitted and only drop it in after the wheel has been trued. If I sent a new inner motor, you would have a good as new motor after less than 5 mins of your time and it would require virtually no skills and only a screw driver. Swapping the axle and phase is probably a 1-2hr job at the most and requires a little skill and some tools. If you want that inner motor, let me know ASAP as I can get the axle and cable returned and arrange that inner motor instead. In the circumstances, I'd actually be happy to receive the parts back and refund all your costs, so say the word and I'll make an exception for you. When there is this much bad vibes floating around, things generally don't improve and frankly life is too short and hard enough as it is without seeking confrontation.

Whilst we are on the subject of skipping this order, I personally appreciate the whole experience. It has given us a good shove to improve some details that may have slipped over time due to basically not having any reported issues. The other thing I'm happy about, is that as you say I will not have the pleasure of your custom in future. You may not have had a problem with our previous dealings, but from my side it wasn't that pleasant, not terrible, but not nice. There's no harm to be a bit more pleasant and understanding with people, most people are doing their best and are willing to put things right if you work with them.

Thanks
Paul

PS. I don't get this:

Yes I agree you have done your best to make sure I fix a brand new motor that has damaged phases.

and

Yes you replied to my emails promptly after I started this thread.

I replied somewhere between 36 and 48hrs after your first email, I never received anything back from you, next I knew I was told by a friend about this thread and responded here the same day I was informed. I just sent you an email informing you we shipped some parts for you, received an email straight back from you, copied below:

What order are we talking about? Paul knows I said I didn't want anything shipped and nor I will not hack my motor apart. I also said I'm in the process of moving.
I would advise to contact your courier and cancel that shipment as I will not be at the same address.
Best of luck,
Orlando

I have a policy of replying to yesterdays emails today. Why do I do this? I have found it improves efficiency by batching, I've also found and I hope nobody is too offended by this, but if I reply to an email as it lands in my inbox, many people will start an email conversation and you end up with multiple SMS style emails instead of 1 where a little more effort is put into putting all details into a single email, with sentences, maybe even a paragraph or 2. I currently spend most of my life doing emails, so anything to make it more efficient of my time, I will do. So because I see an email from you, the person who started this thread, and I respond to it immediately, that shows what exactly. Please Chill out, life is too short. I intend to be at the Las Vegas Show in September, if you want to discuss anything with me face to face, feel free.

All the best to you
Paul

 

[migueralliart]

Alright just to close this whole argument.

Putting a doubt in my testimony of shipping was a bit bad on your part. At least that's the way I got it. If a box gets opened after shipping there is pretty much always a label that says it was opened and I would notice new tape somewhere in the box. This was not the case.

I though when you sent that email it was regarding the inner motor replacement which I didn't want to do. I'm not a newbie if that's what you wanna say. I can upgrade phases and replace stators and drill covers so replacing the axle is also good with me.

I will be at interbike this year and I don't want to keep talking about this experience here or anywhere else. I'm taking vacation time to go there and would like to enjoy it.

Just send the axle replacement like we agreed over email and consider this a square deal I will not comment further or try to hurt anybody's reputation.

Thanks for your help and good luck in the future.

Regards,
Orlando

 

[cell_man]

Ok, that is fine with me, I wasn't looking for an argument, merely defending and explaining myself. I will send the axle to the new address, but the original telephone number. Contact the carrier once I've forwarded the info to discuss, if it doesn't align with your schedule.

Thanks
Paul

 

[declarkus]

This post was funny. Thanks for the laughs. 2 things:

- I have no complaints about EM3EV. Paul was great helping me add to my order and thoroughly explaining shipping. Don't get me wrong, the cost of shipping is painful, but it made it undamaged. Despite a cheap looking box, it did its job (thanks to the foam capping the axle).

- That was definitely an argument. Both of you went out of your way to call each other out even after the problem had been resolved. I don't know how mature any of it was. I would have been upset if something was broken after waiting all that time, but I would like to think I wouldn't have misplaced my emotions onto a public forum, a point that Orlando almost bragged about. That being said, questioning the integrity of the customer isn't a very ethical practice either. Who videotapes the opening of a package?! All in all, I feel you both came out of this reaking of ego. We will all get to look back at all this in the future and laugh at your expense.

"It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man." - Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

 

[migueralliart]

A replacement axle was sent...

Thanks for your reply but an agreement between him and I has been made so there is no more fuel to add to this fire.

Regards,
Orlando

 

[dogman dan]

If you agree, this thread is now locked. If you want it unlocked let me know in a PM.