Observations from Germany: middrives everywhere

[Should be working]

I'm spending a few weeks working here, and am stunned to see TONS of bikes with built-in middrive motor systems, most of them appear to be the Panasonic. People are just pedaling all over the place with these brand-built bikes, out doing grocery shopping and everyday things. I assume there are some hub motors out there too, but they are harder for me to spot. At home I have seen maybe ONE other middrive motor in 2 months. Why aren't these bikes being sold in the US?? Is it just the bike culture here that makes for such a big market of ebikes?

 

[Lebowski]

Panasonic and more recently Bosch are the main mid-drive bikes you see here in
Switzerland. It's a good 5 to 1 ratio w.r.t. hub drive bikes. Mid-drive is more allround,
better engineered ('cause you go through the gears), especially when there's
lots of hills around. I know in Holland the hub drives are more popular but this
has to to with Holland being flat, and price.

 

[Lebowski]

Is it just the bike culture here that makes for such a big market of ebikes?

Yes, we have a totally different bicycle culture. Lots of bikes are sold to seniors (but also to moms pulling 2 kids in
a little trailer), people that are not physically strong or fit but do want the ease a bicycle brings in the
big European cities (w.r.t. parking and congestion). I think I once read many (car)trips in the cities are around
4 to 8 km in length, a distance perfect for a bicycle.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The Panasonic drive bikes are fairly popular here in the UK, too (usually German made Kalkhoff bikes), as the bottom bracket drive they use makes for good hill climbing ability. Bear in mind that they are based on a Japanese legal ebike, so only 200 watts normally. They use a pedal crank shaft torque sensor to adjust assist based on applied pedal pressure, together with the assist level selected by the handlebar switch. They are limited to assist only below 15mph, but because they drive through the gears they give good hill climbing ability, even with the low maximum power output. There's some info on the internals of these units here: http://www.flecc.co.uk/p/panindex.html

 

[d8veh]

The new Pansonic and Bosch crank-drives are much more powerful than the normal 250w hub motors (and the previous 26v Panasonic). I guess that's why they've become so popular. They've found some way around the power limit in EN15194 that gets them a pass. I'm guessing some sort of soft start that defeats the 0-20 meter acceleration test. Other suppliers seem recently to have figured it out also - like the BH Emotion Neo Cross that has got away with a Bafang BPM II motor and presumably passed the test. This hub-motored bike is even more powerful and climbs hills even better, so I think the balance will swing back the other way soon because hub motors will be cheaper. Maybe they've increased the power in anticipation of the expected soon to come change in power allowed in EN15194.

 

[SamTexas]

I have no experience with the Panasonic or Bosch motors. But I think it's the best and most logical design. I hope some day soon every bicycle frame have a "standard" bottom bracket that accepts those motors. Think about it, everything on your favorite bicycle remains the same. Just swap out the BB.

 

[d8veh]

I have no experience with the Panasonic or Bosch motors. But I think it's the best and most logical design. I hope some day soon every bicycle frame have a "standard" bottom bracket that accepts those motors. Think about it, everything on your favorite bicycle remains the same. Just swap out the BB.

There's still a few questions about whether the gears can take the torque. They're OK for low power, but with the sort of power you have in USA, the gears would probably explode - shame because the concept is good.

 

[Lebowski]

The new Pansonic and Bosch crank-drives are much more powerful than the normal 250w hub motors (and the previous 26v Panasonic). I guess that's why they've become so popular. They've found some way around the power limit in EN15194 that gets them a pass. I'm guessing some sort of soft start that defeats the 0-20 meter acceleration test. Other suppliers seem recently to have figured it out also - like the BH Emotion Neo Cross that has got away with a Bafang BPM II motor and presumably passed the test. This hub-motored bike is even more powerful and climbs hills even better, so I think the balance will swing back the other way soon because hub motors will be cheaper. Maybe they've increased the power in anticipation of the expected soon to come change in power allowed in EN15194.

My girlfriends bike has a Bosch 250W system (25 kmh).... if you read the documentation though
it's 250W AVERAGE, with long bursts of 650W possible
The same as a MAC is 500W average but can handle 3 to 4 kW for minutes at a time

 

[SamTexas]

There's still a few questions about whether the gears can take the torque. They're OK for low power, but with the sort of power you have in USA, the gears would probably explode - shame because the concept is good.

I'm one of the few (if not the only one) in the US who doesn't need a lot of power. I'm very happy and satisfied with the current 20mph/750W regulation, but a true 250W output is more than adequate for me. I can output around 125W continuously for a few hours, so the additional 250W will make me 3 times as strong.

 

[Punx0r]

What bugs me slightly about BB drives is that you gear down the motor a bunch, then chain it to the crank where it's geared up again...

 

[SamTexas]

That's the price you pay for a compact, lighter motor I guess. It's always a compromise, that's for sure.

 

[MadRhino]

EU regulations, mostly 250w pedelec, is making a mid drive the only good solution.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Here's a list of some mid-drives. If you are going to limit a motor to a modest power level, giving the motor some gears will help a lot. In the interests of full-disclosure, I am a spell-checker for electricbikes.com.

http://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive/

 

[Samd]

You might want to check out our Aprilia midmount drive thread, we've been pushing them hard for a few years now, and yes thru the gears is good enough even to warrant an old school brushed motor in our case. But am starting to wear parts at 1200watts.
It's a long thread. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=18505

You don't need to go to a really high voltage to get good top speed like on a hub motor, nor high current for high starting torque...

Looking forward to seeing one of the panasonic units up closer soon. I am sure they have advanced a lot since the aprilia brushed unit....

 

[rojitor]

I almost buy a kalkhoff for my first e-bike, they have a huge reputation in my country, besides they were the one and only brand beyond 40 km/h one year ago.

 

[d8veh]

I forgot to mention that the Bosch and Panasonic drives don't allow for a throttle. Instead they use a torque sensor with proportional power so you have to pedal quite hard to get maximum power and if you stop pedalling, the power stops. I was at a recent electric bike show and got a chance to try a whole range of the new bikes, and what I noticed is that some of the hub motors now have substantially more power and torque than they did a year ago. These "250w" crank drives are no match for the BPM II for power and torque that was fitted to some of the hub driven ones, and of course the BPMs can easily be tweaked to give a lot more than the standard bike, which you can't do on those crank drives. While I'm on a roll, I wasn't at all impressed by the 36v Panasonic. It clunked as soon as you touched the pedal. I guess you get used to it, but I found it a bit frightening.

 

[Should be working]

I have a BB Panasonic motor at home (USA) and I'm the only one I know with it, and I only have seen it EVER on 3 brands of bike (all German). Here I'm seeing it on all kinds of bikes. Mostly used by older people from what I'm seeing. Also saw a BionX today and a few hubs.

 

[Should be working]

Also, I love the pedal sensor in the Panasonic motor. I feel like it totally reads my mind, it responds to however hard I push. Good on dead starts too.