Phase short paranoia

E-HP

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I’ve got most of the parts ready to fix my ebike and get back on the trail/road, so no excuses, except a little paranoia. I can’t really risk another crash, so probably being more cautious than usual. I can’t picture myself holding back on an occasional speed run, but thinking of the what ifs to prepare for the unexpected.
So here’s a perhaps low probability event, that I’d like to see if anyone has experienced. When I was messing around a few years ago, I had a sudden phase short when launching my bike. The rear wheel locked up solid. My quick diagnosis was a controller short (fried FETs), so I unplugged the phase wires and the wheel unlocked, and able the push and pedal home.
My question is, has anyone ever experienced a phase short at speed? In my case, I think the FETs died from overcurrent, since I didn’t have any limits applied at the time and the peak current off the line was pretty high, so luckily speed wasn’t an issue. An unexpected rear wheel lockup would suck, so trying to convince myself that the probability is low. Anyone have that happen or know of it happening?
 
I've blown a few but they all blew during acceleration. One time the scooter stopped so fast it almost gave me a bloody nose. About the only way around this would be to put fuses in the phase wires, but this might cause more problems than it solves.
 
I've never had this happen. I had some kind of intermittent hall short on my grin all axle that caused a number of controllers to intermittently not start spinning the wheel OR go full throttle. That was scary - good thing i didn't have a lot of power.

A phase short is theoretically deadly with a front motor but not not with a rear. The bike will slow down rapidly then dump you off the side.

Possibly this could not happen with a geared motor because if torque is applied in the opposite direction ( braking ), a geared motor should be in freewheeling mode.
 
Thanks all. Makes sense that it would have a greater chance of happening under acceleration, which hopefully means less likely when drawing fewer amps at higher speeds. When it happened to me, it didn’t fully lock up, but skidded a little, and wouldn’t rotate after stopping.
 
I've had two controllers short phases when moving pretty fast, but still accelerating. One was a 60A KT controller, and the other was a 60A generic gold "three mode" controller. Neither one locked up entirely. Instead, the impression was that of really rattly hard braking, as if a great big carrot was poked into the wheel and was getting chopped up by each passing spoke.
 
I would bet that the bigger the motor, the more braking force you see when you get a short.
 
I would bet that the bigger the motor, the more braking force you see when you get a short.
The first one was a front Leaf 1500W 6T, the second was a QS212 35H. So fairly big, but not motorcycle stuff.
 
That's fairly big.

Maybe the difference between your problem and e-HP's is:

In my case, I think the FETs died from overcurrent, since I didn’t have any limits applied at the time and the peak current off the line was pretty high, so luckily speed wasn’t an issue. An unexpected rear wheel lockup would suck, so trying to convince myself that the probability is low. Anyone have that happen or know of it happening?

..this kind of failure may have locked all the phases at the controller instead of one set of phases at the motor.

I haven't heard of this kind of failure until today but i see how it's possible of the FETs weren't switching on and off.
Damaged FETs will have unpredictable behavior at best, completely fail to work at worst.

This no-name controller might have had some crappy FETs in it to begin with ( typical for cheap controllers ), maybe it couldn't handle what you were dishing out.

Did the controller have poor dispersion of heat to atmopshere, ie it's in a bag? if so, you actually need to reduce the amperage versus stock most times.
 
If you think an overcurrent is likely, you could add fuses to the phase wires, sized higher than any normal usage would generate, but smaller than what you might get in an overcurrent event.

Then they should blow and prevent wheel lockup in this kind of event.

Make sure they're rated higher than the highest regen voltage you would every possibly expect from the motor coil itself (not at the controller), so they don't arc across the fuse and continue current flow...(potentially overhaeting the fuseholder or wires and starting a fire from teh plasma arc).

this is an untested idea; been proposed before but dunno if anyone ever verified
 
this is an untested idea; been proposed before but dunno if anyone ever verified
Maybe because it could be destructive testing or even dangerous not knowing what could actually happen? I normally have limits set via my Cycle Analyst, so I guess just making a rule never to go unlimited unless in a safer controlled environment, or just keep limits in place all the time.
It might even be time for me to build a mid power bike like neptronix is doing.
 
Maybe because it could be destructive testing or even dangerous not knowing what could actually happen? I normally have limits set via my Cycle Analyst, so I guess just making a rule never to go unlimited unless in a safer controlled environment, or just keep limits in place all the time.

Some thoughts, a bit disjointed because I've been doing some involuntary napping....

When the previous one failed, was the bike going faster than it's normal no-load speed? If so, and if it's a DD motor, it oculd have generated voltages higher than the FETs could handle (especially if the battery has a common-port BMS and shut itself off for any reason), That could have caused the fet faulre.

If it was just during a startup from a stop, if it was high load, or high throttle on a non-FOC controller, so it doesn't control the phase current, just pwms the voltage to control the motor speed, and thus at zero or near zero speed it can use 'block mode" where it doesn't pwm anything and just commutates the
motor at very high current for some amount of time until the motor is above whatever speed the controller's designed for or the block time runs out.

it could be worse if the controller has been shunt modded as it then doesn't even know how much battery current is flowing, and if it uses that plus some math to guess phase currents for limiting motor draw then it can't do the right math so can't get the right answer and the fets can be overloaded and blow up.

The Cycle analyst can't see phase currents so it doesn't matter if it's got limits or not, or if it's even there, for this problem. it only sees battery current so if battery current never exceeds the limit, the ca won't roll throttle down.

An FOC controller that uses throttle to moduclate phase currents (most of them do) will probably not have this situation, unless you've tweaked the controller settings at or beyond whatever safe zones they have.


all controllers ahve some form of limiting if they haven't been hacked or whatever, or settings twaeked beyond the safe max limits or defaults. foc controllers monitor phase currents directly, some all three and some only two and do math for the third, almost no non-foc controllers measure phase currents at all and only measure battery curretns. so the limts for each apply to those measurements only, and can't protect against the other one it doesn't directly measure.



fwiw, a rear wheel lockup is much better than a front; at least you'll only lose rear traction or skid or brake hard or whatever, instead of potentially flipping over the bars from a sudden braking event or losing steering control.


the fuse idea should work as long as it the fuses are rated correctly; i'd use bolt on fuses to ring terminals crimped correclty to the phase wires. afvoids holder problems. just remember that as soon as they blow the phase generated voltages at whatever speed you're at will spike to the unloaded speed voltage right then, so you want to find out what the motor will generate (what it's kv is x the rpm) at the highest speed it will ever spin at worst case, and use fuses rated for higher than that voltage to ensure they can't arc across when they blow. and make sure the current rating is correct for that specific fuse per it's manufacturer chart to blow instantly when there's a short and you get phase lcokup, but not to blow for short regen events or startup events, etc.

of you areladly have a blown controller, you can measure what the phase currents are with an ammeter between the cotnroller and motor in any of the shorted hpase lines. then spin the motor up to speed (highest current will be at the speed it might be at the worst case when this could happen on the road, but you would need to test at the slwoest pseed you might hafve this problem at so you will know the lowest current the fuses must blow at), using a diferent external drive system, or if t will spin well enough to ride ,you could go down a steep enough hill to generate that speed. then once you know the current you need it to blow at
 
If it was just during a startup from a stop, if it was high load, or high throttle on a non-FOC controller, so it doesn't control the phase current, just pwms the voltage to control the motor speed, and thus at zero or near zero speed it can use 'block mode" where it doesn't pwm anything and just commutates the
motor at very high current for some amount of time until the motor is above whatever speed the controller's designed for or the block time runs out.

it could be worse if the controller has been shunt modded as it then doesn't even know how much battery current is flowing, and if it uses that plus some math to guess phase currents for limiting motor draw then it can't do the right math so can't get the right answer and the fets can be overloaded and blow up.

The Cycle analyst can't see phase currents so it doesn't matter if it's got limits or not, or if it's even there, for this problem. it only sees battery current so if battery current never exceeds the limit, the ca won't roll throttle down.

fwiw, a rear wheel lockup is much better than a front; at least you'll only lose rear traction or skid or brake hard or whatever, instead of potentially flipping over the bars from a sudden braking event or losing steering control.
It was from a start, or slow roll. I had no limits set, and was tuning the throttle ramp rate on the CA, so hitting the throttle a few times, changing settings, and repeating. I usually have a power limit and a pretty slow throttle ramp for normal riding. I was trying to get the bike to barely wheelie when wicking the throttle open while rolling less than 10 mph or so. I suck at wheelies, especially with an ebike. Counterintuitive. I was comfortable with the front wheel lifting on my sport bikes (but that’s not an intentional wheelie) so trying to set the ramp, to remove the chance of surprises. Basically the front came down hard and the rear wheel locked up. I could barely turn it by hand afterwards, so there was no chance of walking it home. I crossed my fingers hoping the short was on the controller side, and disconnected the phase wires, and the wheel turned fine. That was a long walk/ride home. It’s a toss up which is harder, pushing or pedaling a non powered direct drive.
Anyway, it was my 18 FET 70A/200A Power Velocity controller, no mods. I decided to tune the ramp rate with the new controller on a small flat road down the hill, so the walk would be a lot shorter lol.
I think it’s probably unlikely to happen at higher speeds since phase current is lower, unless I do something like flipping the 3 speed switch to high while on the throttle (dumbest thing I’ve done).
 
Anyway, it was my 18 FET 70A/200A Power Velocity controller, no mods.
i wonder h ow they are setup for response to various situations? sounds like it's probably "factory tuned" to allow more than it's truly capable of in at least this situation.

if it was correclty / well designed and setup, with no hardware mods, it wouldn't (shouldn't) have been able to blow the fets under that circumstance (it wouldn't have allowed user settings that exceed it's ability to handle any situation).

I think it’s probably unlikely to happen at higher speeds since phase current is lower, unless I do something like flipping the 3 speed switch to high while on the throttle (dumbest thing I’ve done).

that also shouldn't cause any problems. if the 3sp sw just changes the way it responds to throttle input, it should either require letting off throttle after changing to respond again, or it should gracefully reinterpret the active throttle input to the new level.

even if the level is higher all it should do is then respond by increasing output as demanded.

nothing bad should happen from any user input on any normally functioning controls on a correctly designed controller. ;)
 
if the 3sp sw just changes the way it responds to throttle input, it should either require letting off throttle after changing to respond again, or it should gracefully reinterpret the active throttle input to the new level.
I think flipping the switch was like applying another 1/3 throttle in a split second, not graceful. From the CA perspective, there’s no ramping going on. From the controllers perspective, it’s instant, no ramp. I was at ~20 while accelerating, switched to high, and the front tire was in the air. I don’t think I did a good job looking like it was on purpose.
 
I just meant the controller should still handle that without a problem--any combination of user inputs that can happen will happen and it must handle it--even if it does so by refusing the input and shutting down to protect itself. ;)
 
the onl;y wheelie I popped was on sb cruiser back when I used the white plastic dog crate, and it had tiny (iirc) the st bernard in it. i came up to a t intersection on metroparkway on my way home frokm work,and stoppe0d, preparing to turn right, and just as i started to move forward and turn right (wiht the rear hubmotors pushing) tiny moved backwards with all her hundred pounds behind the axles, and the trike reared up like a horse just as a police suv passed the interesection in the other lane. :shock:

they didn't even slow down, and i pushed myself up and ofrward to get the nose down as i contunied to turn and accelerate into the turn....
 
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