Phaserunner on 3KW motor

[Grinning_Ernst]

The docs on the Phaserunner state it's "ideally suited for running brushless motors for electric vehicles in the 500-2000 watt power range".

On a system with a 48v 40A battery and a Crystalyte 4080 "ufo", would swapping out a Grinfineon 40A controller for a Phaserunner be a step-up in terms of performance and riding experience? I'm lured by the small size, the described "smooth response of a FOC with torque throttle", and the idea to get the most out of my current battery, but it seems my motor is out of the ideal range.

Some more technical questions:
How is it that the FOC on the Phaserunner is most performant / efficient in the 500-2000 Watt power range?
Does the "FOC effect" gradually "fizzle out" outside of this range?
Or would the heat generation be too great?

Thanks!

 

[NCC1941]

The main thing that makes the Phaserunner less suitable for high-power setups is the relatively low phase amp limit, which will affect the off-the-line and low-speed acceleration of high power setups. That, and the fact that under sustained high load, the Phaserunner will thermal throttle itself down to 55A (battery and phase amps, if I understand correctly).

A Grinfineon 40A controller will probably actually accelerate a bit faster than a Phaserunner off the line, though if you set the battery amp limit of the Phaserunner higher than 40A, it'll carry higher acceleration through the midrange.

Source: https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor=MTC4080&motor_b=MTC4080&hp=0&hp_b=0&batt=B7223_AC&batt_b=B7223_AC&cont=C40&cont_b=cust_55_96_0.03_V

For both controllers, the flat line on the left side of the torque graph indicates that there's still plenty of room for more off-the-line oomph with this motor from a controller that can push higher phase amps than either the Grinfineon or the Phaserunner.

The silent FOC operation and torque throttle is really nice (speaking from experience with the Phaserunner on my build), but from what I understand, the Grinfineon is already pretty decent, being a sinewave controller with current-based throttle response. The Phaserunner should be a step up in terms of smoothness and ride feel, but I couldn't guess at whether or not it's a worthwhile step up when compared against a Grinfineon you already own.

 

[flat tire]

A phaserunner is a tiny ass controller that's why it's specced for tiny power. If you want the bigger brother for a hub motor, the BAC2000 and BAC4000 will delivery much more power. You can buy an eval kit from ASI.

Whatever you do, don't buy from ERT. For years users have reported issues with receiving stuff months late, never receiving stuff, and receiving the wrong thing. Not sure how this guy is still in business.

 

[goatman]

I run a clyte 3540 with the phaserunner around 3500 watts its plenty fast, I actually backed it off to 2500 watts. I used to run the 40amp grinfinion, you do lose the snappy throttle off the line, you will have a wtf? this is gutless moment but playing with the torque ramp up rate improved the throttle quite a bit and im getting 1400 watts of regen braking. if youre still on bicycle rims and the bike with you on it is 250lbs or less you should be fine with a phaserunner but I wouldn't try to spin a heavy moped tire/rim. im running 2 bikes on phaserunners for their good reliability and good power. on my bike that weighed 105lbs before me getting on it, so 300lbs total, the phaserunner wasn't enough

 

[goatman]

the 300lb bike with me on it was running the 40 amp grinfinion and the grinfinion was a fun controller for that bike til it blew

 

[amberwolf]

On a system with a 48v 40A battery and a Crystalyte 4080 "ufo", would swapping out a Grinfineon 40A controller for a Phaserunner be a step-up in terms of performance and riding experience?

that depends on exactly what performance you're already getting, as well as what your riding conditions and style are.


for instance, if you're only seeing 1000w peak power now, and riding on flat roads with no winds, there's not going to be a power increase, probably not much difference in anything.

but if you're lugging up a long hill stuck at lower speed because of not enough power, and maxing out the existing controller at 2000w the whole way, and want to go faster up the hill, then a more powerful controller (and bigger / better battery to supply it!) would help that. but you'd have to specify what hill (or other conditions) you're dealing with that the system can't presently handle.

or...if you slowly accelerate up to speed, never pushing the system hard, riding on the flats with no wind...not much of a reason to change anything.

but if you are slamming on full throttle accelerating from a stop repeatedly, like in traffic, more power may (depending on the motor/etc) allow you to accelerate more quickly, if that's your desire. you'll still need a better battery, as well as controller, to do that. and you might need a better motor, more suited to your specific conditions.


if you just want more power for the sake of saying you have it, you can put whatever you want on there, but it wont' do anything more than you ask of it.


i recommend that you first list all of your specific conditions, needs, riding style, etc., and then list exactly what you want out of it that you are not getting at present, so we can help you see if the system can be improved enough to do what you want with just a new controller and battery, or if you are going to need a new motor too, and what exactly you'll need for each of those things.


you can also go to the http://ebikes.ca/simulator and read the entire page to learn what everything is and how to use it, and then experiment with different systems under the conditions you need it to work under, to see how they perform, which will help you figure out what is needed to actualy do the work you need it to.

 

[john61ct]

If you want the bigger brother for a hub motor, the BAC2000 and BAC4000 will delivery much more power. You can buy an eval kit from ASI.

But who in the US will tune it for your rig and that specific motor?

Many say can be as bas a Sevcon that way.

And even when you buy a kit, motor + ASI BAC together, apparently often no tuning's done.

I'd even travel and pay for the tools & training but haven't got reco's on that, plus now not even leaving the neighborhood for the next month at least it seems

 

[flat tire]

But who in the US will tune it for your rig and that specific motor?

Many say can be as bas a Sevcon that way.

You tune it yourself, it's that easy.

ASI software comes with autotune for the hard parameters and is dead simple to configure for larger slower motors like hubmotors. The problems with ASI arise with RC-style motors where the default tuning algorithms don't work, or don't work well. Hubmotors are perfectly suited to the control software and run great with easy setup. Even hall sequence is auto-tuned.

Sevcon does not come with auto discovery features to my knowledge, so the main hassle there assuming you have the correct firmware, hardware, software is figuring out feedback control for the current and speed regulation. Their software is also much more bloated and less user friendly.

 

[Grinning_Ernst]

In the fine tradition of "better late than never", I'm following up on this question.

I ended up installing a Kelly controller that does 80A continuous, and 200A peak.

I also swapped out the battery for a more powerful unit: 15s6p (54V nominal, 20,5Ah), discharge rated at 60A.

To my standards (a light weight dude who lives in a hilly city, and who commutes and has fun on his bike), this turned my bicycle into a monster which, with the default Kelly controller settings, is not suitable for commuting. It can — and did — smack an unassuming rider my weight (160 pounds) on the concrete when opening the throttle on a red light. Reducing acceleration at low speeds by 40% made me gradually regain confidence in my twist throttle.

Kelly states that a controller should be at least twice as powerful as what the motor can handle. That's food for discussion I suppose, but this controller does free up the full potential of my motor, and it's phenomenal.

This project of gradually building out my old mountain bike (with no suspension and, originally, simple V-brakes) started years ago with a, in retrospect, rather crappy Crystalyte conversion kit. As the components were upgraded and the vehicle's speed and weight went up, I swapped the brakes for hydraulic Magura brakes (which still needed regular maintenance and tweaking), and improved the shock absorption with quite good RedShift ShockStop polymers in the handle bar, and the superb Kinekt 2.1 seatpost from Cirrus Cycles in the back. It made for an inconspicuous and comfortable enough commuter bike that could handle the sportier forest excursions as well.

With this new setup though, I had no choice but upgrade to a more modern frame, with front suspension and disk brakes. It's just another bike category that comes knocking at the window of dirt bike territory. It flies up rocky mountain roads with the front wheel barely touching the ground. And the Kinekt is still an absolute must-have on this setup.

Morale of the story: if you're going to unlock a 3KW motor on a bicycle, be prepared to upgrade your entire setup. And wear a helmet.

 

[Voltron]

What a great update, and great advice for people about necessary upgrades and safety gear when ramping up the power.

 

[amberwolf]

I ended up installing a Kelly controller that does 80A continuous, and 200A peak.

Out of curiosity, which model is it, and what actual battery current do you see under the higher loads, both continous and peak?

I ask because unless they've changed their ways of doing things, Kelly controllers are rated for Phase current, not battery current. So that should be really more like a 40A typical controller. It sounds better in marketing ads though.

I also swapped out the battery for a more powerful unit: 15s6p (54V nominal, 20,5Ah), discharge rated at 60A.

In your case it probably doesn't matter because of the way Kellys are rated, but if you have a controller that *does* pull 80A continuous battery current, and 200A peak battery current, and your usage causes this kind of draw regularly, it could be a problem for your battery over time. At the least, it will cause higher voltage sag than you would have otherwise, and see less power at the wheel than you could have.

Generally, you should size your battery so it can supply *more* current than your controlelr willl ask of it. Otherwise you risk overstressing your battery, with the chance of having it cutout on you when it's at low state of charge and you need high power from it due to the extra voltage sag.

If you do run into this issue, you can program the controller to not ask for more current than the battery can supply, as a "patch" fix.

 

[Grinning_Ernst]

Out of curiosity, which model is it

It's the KLS7218S 24-72V.

and what actual battery current do you see under the higher loads, both continous and peak?

I need to take a little detour here, bear with me.

No one likes to ride a bronco for a stroll in the park. I wanted a bike that could shred the asphalt when I wanted it, and coast along smoothly at low speeds when "going for a walk", without fearing the powerful throttle. Pre-Kelly (Grinfineon 40A) I tried everything I could with CA3 settings (power output, amps, speed limit, etc...), pots, three button switches, PAS, but I kept having a jerky and unnatural experience. The more I tried, the more I seemed to confuse both myself and the CA3, which, while trying to interpret the different signals, sometimes would just say "screw it" and send a jolt to the controller.

As much as the Kelly controller is a psychopath out of the box, it "just gets" regen and acceleration. Just plug in a separate throttle for regen, set a percentage, and you're good. And by adjusting the low speed acceleration, throttle naturally transitions from a long, stretched out, drunken slur at slow speed, to a sudden ramp-up into a Deep South rattling car auction MC when you want it. :lol:

So now I've got that going, I kind of dread the CA3. And for Kelly there's *nothing* on the market in terms of control displays afaik. I really should be putting a volt meter inline, but right now I just measure the voltage sag at the end of the ride by plugging into a Satiator. So far I never went below 53V, and I've got a pretty good sense of how far I went and how tired the battery is. So I'm not nervous about it, just mindful. Since the battery BMS is limited at 60A output, and the controller cut-off programmed at 45V, I think I'm good.

Two more things:

- I'm aware that, unless you have a fair amount of experience and have systematically been monitoring battery and other stats on your ride for a long time, going "stats-less" with this system is really not a good idea. Even if you're pretty confident about the battery performance and reliability, it's still not a good idea. And still... I feel liberated not knowing how fast or how far I went, or how much this single climb or acceleration cost me... just enjoying the ride. A smartphone app, with the phone tucked away somewhere, would be perfect for me. I know I can go well over 40mph, so my first priority is to enjoy it when I do, and not to crash.

- at my weight and rider profile, I think I hit the sweet spot in terms of battery weight, capacity, and output. If I changed anything, it would probably be building a higher voltage and lower amps battery with the same amount of cells. I'm somewhere in between Anderson plug and XT150 plug territory right now (actually, I really should be swapping the motor's Anderson plugs for XT150 to do well), so I see higher voltage and lower amps and less heat and easy install plugs as a win.

 

[Voltron]

My Anderson's started slowly warping the plastic housings and getting worse contact, and started going into an overheating spiral that eventually left me stranded, luckily uphill of where I started. After that I got more into separating the phase wires, and way less wrapping to encourage air cooling.

I settled on 72 as a nice voltage... Plenty peppy, but not too lethal. It also lets me run 2 36v packs in series, then separate them for charging with 36v chargers that are cheap and plentiful. But like with all the hot rodding, you have to add an extra layer of being careful. One time specifically, I unplugged the pack, and the plug swung down near my aluminum battery mounting plate, and even though the plug was shielded at the end, it jumped the air gap and went into arc welder mode. It dug an inch and a half long trench in the aluminum and destroyed the plug, all in about a quarter second. Lucky the two power wires didn't fuse together or it could have spiraled out of control.

 

[Voltron]

Also, I'm usually going so fast and looking out for traffic for displays to matter much either... Seat of the pants feel during punching it becomes pretty accurate once you're calibrated
And if you ride at full power all the time, pas settings and words in a display for different power settings isn't really a thing either. I guess I'm a primativist after trying to fix so many customers sophisticated on the surface, overly complicated, but in the end unreliable high dollar bikes, brutal simplicity can be so peaceful while one rides.