Phasor Cycles/ Recumpence drive collaboration

[macribs]

Ever ovalized a standard headtube? I have and the frame is basically garbage after this happens. More surface area for the lower bearing is always better IMO anyways and since manufacturers are now making all high end bikes with tapered headtubes, fork manufacturers will be forced to follow suit and standard non tapered forks will go the way of the dinosaur (just like the 26" wheel I'm afraid).

Ahh now I see, those tapered headtubes have a bigger bottom diameter. I guess those headsets I've seen have been for using regular forks on a tapered headtube, and NOT the other way around.

I guess you are right, it would be better. Because one could choose to use either tapered fork or standard fork w/headset reducer.
End user could go either way with a tapered headtube, but have only one choice with a standard headtube.

 

[macribs]

How many e-rpm an Adaptto is able to manage?

It seems Adaptto can manage 70.000 E-rpm.
For higher I guess RC firmware is needed.

 

[DALBYNATOR]

Daaaamn, if I could get that Inventor Assembly of the new drive that would be great... Matt, help a brother out? :lol:

 

[morati]

David, since you are asking I'd also like to see a tube type space frame incorporated here with space in the center for electronics and a removable battery pack.

 

[panurge]

a straight oversize 1 1/2 headtube would host any fork....from old 1 1/2, to 1 1/4, 1 1/8 or tapered....
The advantage is to have oversized lower bearing and head and thus a more solid fork coupling, saving a bit of weight compared to full oversize. Obviously the main objective is to sell more new bikes and to make the life harder for the small manufacturers.
We weld Titanium frames, actually, we have to offer frames that fit tapered forks, that's an huge cost increase, a tapered headtube alone has a source price that's higher than the whole frame-set tubings maybe close to the whole finished frame's production cost.....otherwise, a 44mm standard headset (or an 1 1/2 straight) is a small fraction of the whole frame-set cost. So We stock Ti tubings for OS head to be used with adapters for tapered or ex-standard. We could never stock the same amount of pre-tapered Ti headtubes, and would be probably more convenient to get them from billets on a lathe, instead.

 

[recumpence]

That is a good call. The frame part of the project is up to David, however.

I am very excited to see what he comes up with. The mounting issues are mainly centered around the width of the drive and fitting it into the frame enclosure. My personal opinion is to shape the frame around the drive in front of the bottom bracket. This would affectively mount the drive completely outside the frame enclosure. Then a cover/skid plate of some sort could be mounted to protect the drive if desired. This would eliminate the width of the drive affecting the width of the frame. Besides, I would assume most people would rather be able to see the drive than to have it completely invisible inside the frame.

What are your thoughts?

Matt

 

[Rodney64]

Yes I would keep it outside with a cover over the belt.

 

[macribs]

For the most quiet operation I think an enclosed mount would be to prefer.
But that would mean taking extra steps to make sure motor has the needed cooling.
I like your idea of placement Matt, would there be any way the motor could be in an oil bath? That would solve both cooling and make motor dead silent.

 

[recumpence]

Oil cooling flooding be a far larger project than the drive unit and frame design combined. Absolutely NOT a possibility.......

Matt

 

[macribs]

Might not need oil cooling. Have you tested the 3220 with liquid cooling jackets? That might be all that is needed.
If cooling jackets remove enough heat it would still be possible to enclose motor for silent stealth riding.

 

[recumpence]

No additional cooling is needed. Fan cooling is more than enough.

Matt

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you are not familiar with Matts work over the last few years, he has made power systems for clients that have not always taken his advice. Because of that he is quite familiar with the performance envelope of any given motor and reduction configuration. The air-cooling fan has been a welcome addition, but the best path is to take Matts hard-earned design advice so that a system doesn't make excessive waste heat in the first place.

A warm motor under load is a proper design. If its constantly cool, the motor is likely heavier than needed, and the great benefit of these high-RPM Astro systems is the lightness of the motor and ESC. If the motor is too hot, we all know what happens then. The added air-fans are rugged, simple, utterly reliable, LIGHT, and failproof. If the shaft is spinning, air is flowing. What the fan accomplishes is to nip off the peaks of heat spikes.

I like experiments, and liquid-cooling a wet jacket over an inrunner is fun to play with. But, as an example...saving 20% in the weight of a Tesla motor due to liquid cooling allowing a smaller motor is a lot of weight savings for a large vehicle. If an air-cooled Astro is accomplishing a job, going to liquid cooling in order to use a 20% smaller motor is a draw. And...If acceleration is already at the limits of the rear-tires' traction and the motor is not overheating...running more amps through the same size of liquid-cooled Astro is un-needed.

If someone wants to post about liquid-cooling an Astro or GNG, I am all for having fun...I say do it!

 

[recumpence]

I have liquid cooled car audio amplifiers in the past by machining the fins off the amp and milling a large cooling jacket. I used pop-up camper faucet water pumps and Earl's aluminum oil coolers as radiators. I made my own reservoir. I understand liquid cooling very well. Would it increase the power output potential on these Astro motors? YES! However, the added weight and complexity is such that far greater gains can be had with twin motors with less added componenetry.

I would love to setup a liquid cooled motor just to see how much can truly be done with one motor. However, for production, it would be a HUGE customer service hassle for me.

Matt

 

[macribs]

@Matt, @Spinningmagnets

I have nothing but faith in Matt's astro setup, I have read several threads of various builds and seen several videos of people using his drive unit. So I do understand MAtt's astro 3220 is extreme power in a tiny lightweight package that perform very well and stand the test of time. And i have no desire to change that, or even to explore the very limits of those motors. As Matt said, if the power of a 3220 is not enough, get another one and run a dual drive.

I must have chosen my words poorly in regards to the cooling. I am not saying astro's need more cooling.
What I tried to point out is that if the 3220 is enclosed due to silent stealth operation then the environment has been totally changed and that running the 3220 in an enclosed environment might lead to the need of better heat dissipation.

The only thing I can see that I don't really care for when it comes to RC motors is the high pitched sound. For me when I think of e-bike I like the quiet operation almost as much as the absent of fossil fuel and combustion engines. Today it seems that if you are in for an no-noise e-bike hub motor is the way to go. But then we have other problems that are much worse then a little noise, with the unsprung weight. This is just my opinion and for all I know I might be the only one that care about the sound of an RC motor. Anyway I just pitched in my thoughts after Matt asked if people would like the motor visible or not. So as I said enclosed would be awesome to counter the RC sound - but then I thought enclosed operation might not be the most friendly environment so added cooling might be needed. AFAIK there is not a dead silent RC motored e-bike out there yet. Seeing one would be awesome.

 

[recumpence]

No offense taken.

I am somewhat short when discussing liquid cooling because once brought up it tends to derail other conversations and takes a large amount of time explaining why I have not moved in that direction.

To address the sound question; even if you silence the motor, the toothed belt makes sound. I guess a ribbed belt could be used to quiet that down as well. But, there are some issues with moving in that direction.

You are not completely alone asking about silent running. But, most people I have dealt with do not mind some sound. Actually, I prefer some type of sound when operating any mobile device. Heck, even my hybrid car makes a whine in EV mode and during regen.

Matt

 

[panurge]

No offense taken.
You are not completely alone asking about silent running. But, most people I have dealt with do not mind some sound. Actually, I prefer some type of sound when operating any mobile device. Heck, even my hybrid car makes a whine in EV mode and during regen.

Matt

totally agreed, I think it's also a question of power/purpose of the bike....on my hubmotor commuter I like the silence, on the astro bike I love that high pitch sound...

I agree even about liquid cooling, most of the time it isn't even needed and air is eventually enough. There's a point that makes a liquid system competitive once proven that a sort of cooling is needed, though, that's mud&wet conditions; there, an air system should need a cover, while liquid systems would keep intact the splashproof design of these inrunners;

 

[macribs]

The power of the 3220 (14,000 watt peak, 6,000 watt continuous) that is at 48v?
Have you ever tried over volting? What numbers would we see ie @72v?
And do you reckon the motor would withstand 72v and still remain durability?

 

[recumpence]

The issue is the controllers. The controllers I use are limited to 50 volts.

So, yes, those number are based on data logging within the controller. These motors (5 turn Delta) pull 300 amps in very short bursts. That is not sustainable, though, because the front wheel is in the air at that point.

Matt

 

[macribs]

Hm. Makes me wonder what those 3220 would put out at 72v or even 96v with hall sensors and adequate controller for smoother throttle response. I guess even the Adaptto max-e would come up short as they do what 10 kw max?

I can't help to think that if the 3220 was wound like (multi) three-phase motors (2 x 3 phase), like having two 3 phase motors in one casing one could get even higher power output. Also the load would be split on two controllers and then there would be no problem delivering that burst current, so the controller would not be the limiting factor. Cooler running controllers, and might even result in cooler running motor.

There I go off topic again.

 

[DanGT86]

Matt has sold over 100 drives and i have never heard any of his customers complaining of a lack of power. Looking to more voltage as a solution would up the rpm and require an even steeper reduction in the first stage. That could be hard to package as the large pulley gets even bigger and the small pulley gets smaller. More voltage (e-rpm) on a motor like this would require controller tech that so far has proven challenging at the price point most of us play at. These astros seem to be efficient enough to overcome the small loss from the torque limiter so troubleshooting high amp starts just doesnt seem like a good place to devote engineering energy.

You may be right that more power could be had with higher voltage but if they run reliably and cool under 50v and produce almost unmanageable power wheelies from a 40mph roll, why mess with it?

As far as the dual 3 phase in one can goes, i cant imagine it would produce better efficiency than the astros already have. There is only room for so much copper no matter how you wind it. These motors are spectacularly power dense the way they are. Astro winds them to order. If you want to try something different they might be willing to take your money.

 

[macribs]

As far as the dual 3 phase that would be mostly to make it easier for the controller(s). By running two controllers those high current burst would not be a problem, and most likely you would end up with two controllers that have a combined price that is lower then then the one controller needed today

 

[Gab]

by emaayan » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:01 pm

i said countless times. subscribe to his facebook page, like and share like crazy..

How noisy is it in Dba and say a certain distance away 50cm ?

 

[panurge]

Hey Matt, going back on-topic...
That's what I would consider as crucial for a dedicated project:

FRAME RELATED:
- fork compatibility (possibly tapered or 1-1/2")
- BB standard & spindle length (my A factor is about 190mm with a 148mm howitzer spindle and clears perfectly the clutch that's at 160mm from the BB center to center if that's of any help)
- As much Swingarm's lateral stiffness as possible (avoid misalignments and perhaps allows for belts) isn't that easy to get the two with lightness, but an open S.A. (boomerang or mono style) would help to get everything easier on the left side; a rear c.guide like this http://www.offroadmotors.eu/shop_immagini/858.jpg is what I would look for other than the sprung tensioner on the return chain segment.
- Head angle&wheelbase (here the target terrain is the crucial question, given that I would stay at least quietly long and away from exaggerated DH slopes)
- Obvious but worth to say: Chain as short as possible (mine is less than 150 links), and chain's growth as little as possible if not pivot driven (1-2 links on mine)

SYSTEM RELATED:
- sensorless Vs sensored (for a commercial project It maybe worth the efforts needed?)
- Delta-Wye switch (that's cool I want that on my 4t)
- throttle idling feature and AMP throttle (Vs RC interface) if sensorless. Actually The CA with that feature works very well for me, reducing surges/ripples, eliminating Thr. delay and allowing for 1kph wheelies and BHoops, only a very fast acceleration from 0 is still precluded without pedals.
- About mounting the drive: to have the motor frame integrated makes sense to me if the jackshaft is placed on the pivot. Otherwise a front/low mount as you suggest with a proper cover is the more sensible and easy approach, plus in dry and clean conditions, it allows to show your naked drive beauty......the best is anyway to mount the billet directly to the frame without clamps, otherwise I would consider a clamping pipe stub or a sort of it, parallel to the power chain line like on my MP6.

Perhaps some of these few cents would be useful to the cause.

 

[macribs]

What happened to this frame project? Delayed or discontinued?

 

[recumpence]

It is moving forward. In fact, I received an email from David a few days ago with a couple CAD drawings.

I am sure you will see something from him very soon.

Matt