Pikes Peak, Electric Mountain Climbers...

[dogman dan]

Yeah, we've had this discussion before Luke. Only a weight limit would be easy to enforce. Then you almost have to add a hubmotor class since they haven't a chance against a good non hub bike like Paul brought to the DR.

To limit wh, you'd just about have to have the battery discharged, then charged with 1000wh, then watched like a hawk till the race, etc, etc, impossible. Quite possiblly the only way to do any kind of limited class would be a weight limit. Or a one design kind of deal, such as a class for only for a particular kit and a particular battery, and assume everybody will overcharge if they can afford a one time use battery. EWWW that starts to sound like the good ol 1000w class. :lol:

Anyway, this event is more of a group ride with a time keeper than a real race. I continue to be quite impressed with any ebike that makes the finish line at all! Whatever the time is, all that finish this one are winners. It's got to be a bitch of a climb, one's I've done half the length at those grades were a big accomplishment to me.

 

[zombiess]

Any talk about placing limits is just silly. There are so few ebikes running in it that it serves no purpose. Get more participation, then talk about limits.

Personally I'm just happy that several ebikes showed up and actually succeeded, no matter what they were. Most people who know about my ebike tell me I should patent it as though I'm some great inventor LOL. They also all scoff at the price I've spent to build my 43mph bike.

 

[kfong]

Pikes peak represents to me more of a showcase of what is possible, rather than a true race. Way too many variables, but having a weight restriction sounds like the best plan if we really have to go that route. Based on this years turnout, I say leave it open and see what shows up next year. There isn't any prize money awarded, so no harm done, and people are going to pretty much classify the types of bike independently anyways. if someone brings a gun to a knife fight it would be pretty obvious, but I would still like to see the results.

 

[Josh K.]

Thanks folks,

Thanks to optibike with there apologies, I accept, no hard feelings. Hats off to some great E bikes.

I know, if you get into a starting line, you are up for some accidents. I have seen it for years in BMX and MNT bike racing.

Overall, it is a great event. I hope more people and E bike companies will be there next year.

I believe that CA meters on all bikes would be helpful, and a cap on available power can keep it reasonable.

We were shooting for 1,200 watt hours of energy for the climb, and used 1150. 2,000 watt hours might be a good limit.

The WHAM Watt Hour Allotment Meter from The folks who organized the Portland international races, was a great Idea.

Classes of E bike racing might be a good start. 750 watt legal E bikes, and an open class.

Josh K.

 

[liveforphysics]

When you say 750w legal bikes Josh, you mean bikes that aren't rated for continuous output greater than 750w right? So, a few KW input off the line, and a decent bit over a kW input for hubs hill climbing. Then, when you say legal, do you also mean they can't exceed 20mph under motor assist?

Trying to clear up what you define as legal for entering a legal bike class.


If you go with an energy limited class, the hubs will he impossible to compete, and in a hill climb, its gong to come down to whoever the lightest little girl optibike can put on a bike.

 

[Josh K.]

Okay,

By federal Def, 750 watts max motor output, 20 mph, without pedaling, with 170 lb rider on the flats. No more than 100 lbs.

It could be a class, a starting point, for where Legal Electric bikes can have a platform to preform on.
I would like most to see a watt hour limit be set, Say 1,200 watts for total output through the shunt, before the controller.
The you may race whatever batteries, motor, gear combo one would like.

It would promote the highest efficiency drive trains to be developed. showcased and embraced. Bosch Cannondale will be one to beat, Kalkauf is another to contend with. Optibike would be a contender, if they can stay within limits. Our Rocha Mountain Drive, would be one to beat as well. Hub motor drive systems will be shooting for us as well, and they could be contenders with the right combination of heat transfer, gearing, and a good rider, like the rest of us.

The ultimate prize could go to the one who scales the mountain using the least fuel, but still doing it way ahead of the unassisted riders...Maybe 1.5 hours as a goal? This would promote the training and improved abilities needed for the rider to do well. Our Strommer rider is gathering up his Data right now on his heart rate, calories consumed, and will impose them over the electrical data for a full human electric hybrid results submission.

All in all, it would be a more level playing field, a safer event, and would be more inclusive. All the folks who were talking trash, and ended up being a no show, might actually make it to the event, and give us a run for our monies, especially if we got an X prize like event, some national TV coverage, like the Gasser motorcycle guys, a few weeks ahead of us...
Hhmm I wonder if red bull would be interested in seeing a pedal assist bike scale a mountain, at 12-25 mph...

Ideas?

Oh yeah, open class. Umm, Maybe we could have a one hour event, allow electric motorcycles in, get Bramo, zero, ktx and the like interested. Stealth over powered bikes could come with an OptiStomper, and no holds barred scale it as fast
as electric can go. Maybe 3kw limit on power, no more than 200 lbs, full face helmets required...Ect. Tech testing is a Must! Agni, Perm, Etec, monster motors allowed, possibly the Electrathon recers would like a chance to double up their capacity, and have a run at it. They run E Tec's, and do 50 miles in an hour, on two yellow tops, 24volts, and 30 ah.

OK, back to remounting my zero battery, into my racing trike for next years open class. 500amp controllers seems fine.

Josh K.

 

[liveforphysics]

Okay,

By federal Def, 750 watts max motor output, 20 mph, without pedaling, with 170 lb rider on the flats. No more than 100 lbs.

It could be a class, a starting point, for where Legal Electric bikes can have a platform to preform on.
I would like most to see a watt hour limit be set, Say 1,200 watts for total output through the shunt, before the controller.
The you may race whatever batteries, motor, gear combo one would like.

It would promote the highest efficiency drive trains to be developed. showcased and embraced. Bosch Cannondale will be one to beat, Kalkauf is another to contend with. Optibike would be a contender, if they can stay within limits. Our Rocha Mountain Drive, would be one to beat as well. Hub motor drive systems will be shooting for us as well, and they could be contenders with the right combination of heat transfer, gearing, and a good rider, like the rest of us.

The ultimate prize could go to the one who scales the mountain using the least fuel, but still doing it way ahead of the unassisted riders...Maybe 1.5 hours as a goal? This would promote the training and improved abilities needed for the rider to do well. Our Strommer rider is gathering up his Data right now on his heart rate, calories consumed, and will impose them over the electrical data for a full human electric hybrid results submission.

All in all, it would be a more level playing field, a safer event, and would be more inclusive. All the folks who were talking trash, and ended up being a no show, might actually make it to the event, and give us a run for our monies, especially if we got an X prize like event, some national TV coverage, like the Gasser motorcycle guys, a few weeks ahead of us...
Hhmm I wonder if red bull would be interested in seeing a pedal assist bike scale a mountain, at 12-25 mph...

Ideas?

Oh yeah, open class. Umm, Maybe we could have a one hour event, allow electric motorcycles in, get Bramo, zero, ktx and the like interested. Stealth over powered bikes could come with an OptiStomper, and no holds barred scale it as fast
as electric can go. Maybe 3kw limit on power, no more than 200 lbs, full face helmets required...Ect. Tech testing is a Must! Agni, Perm, Etec, monster motors allowed, possibly the Electrathon recers would like a chance to double up their capacity, and have a run at it. They run E Tec's, and do 50 miles in an hour, on two yellow tops, 24volts, and 30 ah.

OK, back to remounting my zero battery, into my racing trike for next years open class. 500amp controllers seems fine.

Josh K.

So, for the bikes, you would want to make it an energy economy contest rather than a bicycle race? Would there still be a 20mph speed limit that the electric assist can't help past? Just for clarification, you know you can dump 10kw into any ebike setup from a start and not even get close to exceeding 750w output right?


If an unlimited class allows motorcycles, you're going to need FIM approval and insurance and medical teams everywhere, medical helicopters, and an insurance bond that I think is over 50,000usd for a single day.

 

[dogman dan]

Don't forget to invite Safe to race in that class. This year, it really does remain an exhibition. So bring anything and exhibit it. Without limits we can bring what we want and break it in 60 seconds like we did at the DR. That was fun while it lasted. 8) Winner becomes a matter of bringing something that makes it to the end.

 

[liveforphysics]

Don't forget to invite Safe to race in that class. This year, it really does remain an exhibition. So bring anything and exhibit it. Without limits we can bring what we want and break it in 60 seconds like we did at the DR. That was fun while it lasted. 8) Winner becomes a matter of bringing something that makes it to the end.

Yes. Totally agree. None of the wildest bikes on this forum could survive the climb in remotely wild configuration. I would have to dial back any of my builds to like 1/3rd output, and even then they may smoke before reaching the top if they aren't carefully and conservatively ridden with a careful eye on motor temps.

 

[kfong]

This is truly an epic ebike climb, that is why many of the auto companies run their cars up the peak for testing. The altitude and thin air creates havoc to the system, and the climb pushes the transmission and motor. It's a climb you need to prepare for. I hope we get a better turn out for next year's race, and I hope it stays an open class till there really is enough racers to even bother to classify them. Those who bring production bikes shouldn't worry about the open class anyways since your competition is really against other production bikes, even though winning the title is good for publicity. Even if it does get taken away next year by a homebuilt, it would not be something the average consumer could buy, so you would still have the title of first for a production bike.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I have to say, if there is going to be a serious race, get ready for the mid-drives to walk away from the hub motors!

mmmkay, don't see how the hub debate was anywhere on the radar to what's being discussed.
but if you really can't help yourself & just have to get in your swipe then i guess i just have to rebut.



the problem with a hubmotor is that it is stuck in one gear, n'est-ce pas?
it's efficient at only one particular rpm.
in normal road racing where speed is never constant, you're relentlessly accelerating (either positive or negative) a hubmotor is at a decided disadvantage.
well, that along with it's higher inertial mass it sucks ballz really.

however in applications that run mostly constant speed without wavering off it's efficiency peak too much is precisely where a hubmotor is in it's element.
that's why a hubmotor works reasonably well for a commuter bike.
the overall percentage of time spent off-peak spinning up to speed is relatively low.
and climbing a mountain is even more steady-state constant rpm than commuting.
the terrain may vary a little but it's basically a pinned throttle race.

ask the opti-dweebs how much use they got out of their gears.
they said the first six or almost half their rohloff was dead weight.
really, if there was ever a race tailor made for a hubbie, pikes peak is it.

Sure a hub motor properly modified/specialized for the specific task will be competitive, but if it's limited to the same weight, watt hours of battery and motor wattage, a properly sorted mid-drive type E-Bike is going to beat a hub motor every time. Sure in a Drag race or some similar event that might not be true, but in true endurance test like this event, efficiency & power delivery is going to trump a big motor every time.

never heard of the CSIRO solar car hubmotor?? (i think you have).
don't know what size mountains they tackled but regardless the motor can't tell if it's pushing against the wind or pushing against gravity makes no difference.
history has already proven you wrong that it's the hubmotor that can't be touched for efficiency.

actually you sound a lot like josh's friend who attempted the climb with him last year.
he wrote off hubmotors completely from his wild extrapolation based on a few meager data points.

Learnings and take-aways are:


There is nothing like a derailer geared electric drive for efficiency on
steep hill climbs. All who made it were derailer geared, and all who didn't
weren't.

well mr. bidwell, the stromer (a hubmotor) almost made it going 24 of the 26 miles falling short only for the want of miscalculating by a few amp-hours.
he had 720Wh compared to optibikes that came equipped with over 1 kWh packs.
not much of difference in energy consumed either way.

Hey there, kinda touched a sore spot did I? :wink:

Don't get me wrong, I have no hate for hub motors! They are by far the simplest and most cost effective E-Bike motors around!

They are also some of the least efficient around (while laced to a typical 26in/700c wheel, even a 20in isn't going to cut it at the same voltage/watt hours) , when in my own testing I used only 35% of what was required to power the same hub motor on the same bike doing the same hill climb when used as mid-drive with appropriate gearing VS wasting over 60% of my AH's in heat, I think you are missing the point.

I'm not saying that a hub motor can't hack this hill, I am saying a hub motor given the same power available (same amount of watt hours), being so much more wasteful in it's energy consumption is just going to loose.

It's like comparing a early 50's V-8 to a modern V-6 or even some 4 cyl engines, SURE you can do all kinds of mods on that old V-8 and get the performance you want, and use 4x the fuel, and what have you, but that's not saying it's even in the same class as a modern efficient engine with a turbo/supercharger.

The fastest E-Bike I've heard mentioned on this board so far has NOT been a hub motor, it has been a single stage reduced Agni motor with a TON of battery what was it ... 20 Kilowatts of power reaching speeds of 92 MPH?! Now take that same bike, give it the same battery powering the Optibike and see how far it goes up the hill at Pikes before it runs out of juice.

All things equal, efficiency wins the day. If you don't have restrictions on power (i.e. the year they let larger engines compete at the Indy 500 if they were PUSH-rod instead of OHC) sure lesser tech can win, but once you level the power used, unless you're doing a short burst of speed like in a drag race, the more efficient system will win every time.

Imagine two racers in TDF with equal strength and skill, one with a fixie, one with a standard geared bike. It really doesn't matter if the gear ratio on the fixie is a pretty good compromise between hill climbing & high speed flat-road gearing, the rider with more gears to use is always going to have a huge advantage.

 

[dogman dan]

My estimates were that the pikes peak run on a typical winding hubmotor would waste a lot of energy into heat. So you'd have to carry more battery than was carried on the opti. But lugging enough battery, a typical hubmotor should make it. I heard temps were pretty cold at the top, so oveheating the motor may be less of a problem that I had thought it would be.

No big deal to carry a pound or two of dead weight in the gear hub. The key thing is they got to do the climb in the right gear.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

They are also some of the least efficient around (while laced to a typical 26in/700c wheel, even a 20in isn't going to cut it at the same voltage/watt hours) , when in my own testing I used only 35% of what was required to power the same hub motor on the same bike doing the same hill climb when used as mid-drive with appropriate gearing VS wasting over 60% of my AH's in heat, I think you are missing the point.

that's where you made you're mistake.
you don't use the same config hubmotor that's intended for gp use that you would for strictly climbing a hill.
do you drive a golf ball with your putter as well??
bottom line, short of a motor chilled & wound with superconducting wire, it's a hubmotor propelled EV that holds the record afaik for efficiency.
and it's not even the CSIRO solarcar hubmotor, which already stands at 96%.

Imagine two racers in TDF with equal strength and skill, one with a fixie, one with a standard geared bike. It really doesn't matter if the gear ratio on the fixie is a pretty good compromise between hill climbing & high speed flat-road gearing, the rider with more gears to use is always going to have a huge advantage.

good illustration, wrong conclusion.
*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.
an excellent example of what i'm talking about.

 

[Hillhater]

*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.

FYI... on the PP run, the Opti's speed ranged from 14mph to 25 mph most of the time, but with periods over 30 mph and peak of 42mph.
That is a big range to cover EFFICIENTLY with only one gear.
A derailleur set, weighs what ?..1 lb ?
my money would be on the geared bike ! ... by a long way !

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.

FYI... on the PP run, the Opti's speed ranged from 14mph to 25 mph most of the time, but with periods over 30 mph and peak of 42mph.
That is a big range to cover EFFICIENTLY with only one gear.
A derailleur set, weighs what ?..1 lb ?
my money would be on the geared bike ! ... by a long way !

That's good information to help give us something to look more specifically at, I had suspected there were lots of variation in speed used, but I didn't have any hard data, thanks for adding that info!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

They are also some of the least efficient around (while laced to a typical 26in/700c wheel, even a 20in isn't going to cut it at the same voltage/watt hours) , when in my own testing I used only 35% of what was required to power the same hub motor on the same bike doing the same hill climb when used as mid-drive with appropriate gearing VS wasting over 60% of my AH's in heat, I think you are missing the point.

that's where you made you're mistake.
you don't use the same config hubmotor that's intended for gp use that you would for strictly climbing a hill.
do you drive a golf ball with your putter as well??
bottom line, short of a motor chilled & wound with superconducting wire, it's a hubmotor propelled EV that holds the record afaik for efficiency.
and it's not even the CSIRO solarcar hubmotor, which already stands at 96%.

Imagine two racers in TDF with equal strength and skill, one with a fixie, one with a standard geared bike. It really doesn't matter if the gear ratio on the fixie is a pretty good compromise between hill climbing & high speed flat-road gearing, the rider with more gears to use is always going to have a huge advantage.

good illustration, wrong conclusion.
*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.
an excellent example of what i'm talking about.

I'm not familiar with the CSIRO solarcar, I will look that up thank you!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Astro motors also in that 96% efficient range? I mean it's just a motor after all, whether it's put into a hub or ran as a smaller diameter out-runner like the Astro's, it's as much about how the motor it's self is constructed, whether it's put into a hub or used as mid-drive right? (lets not forget that the 60%+ efficiency increase I saw in my own real world testing was using a Amped 9 x 7 (9C) DD hub motor as mid-drive. :wink: )

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a hub motor can't be efficient, but as you have stated, if one is going with a pretty consistent load, sure, a hub motor (that is laced into a wheel) is going to hit it's efficiency zone especially designed for perhaps a WOT speed that will be constant for 90% or more of the race, however, in most real world applications, a hub motor, much like a fixie a hubmotor is NOT going to be efficient.

Sure if you live in the flatlands with virtually no hills, especially in a city, this makes plenty of sense, just as with the fixie/hub motor you typically have lots of starts and stops, and the lower component count, robust simplicity make perfect sense, no time wasted shifting derailleurs, just pedal!

Now come to my back-yard, Oregon City. I live on top of a hill that requires me to travel down then up for most anything that I can't find on the shelf at Fred Meyers (bicycle parts for one!) and it's going to take a huge bite out of my efficiency if I ride my hub motor bike VS that same motor used as a mid-drive.

I have to travel 2 miles of up hill that starts at a minimum of 5% (this is if I am able to "cheat" and use the elevator to avoid the first 12 -7% grade depending on which route I take) and has about 3 - 4 blocks of 7%+ grade, the worst being about 10% for at least half a block, and why lug around 20lbs of battery when for most trips going a total of 20-40 miles I can use half or 10bls of battery to do the exact same job using a mid-drive?

I'm not attacking your beloved hub motor! :lol:



I'm not recommending we start a "hub burning" (ok Dogman's exempt, he can burn what ever he likes, thanks for all your valuable testing DM by the way! ) and rid the earth of this "evil scourge" .



If I am going to the ends of the earth and want something that just works, a fixie/hub motor might just be the ticket in Antarctica, or if I just want a simple no frills E-Bike that is damn hard to kill, has few parts to fail, and just works every time I want to use it for commuting or what ever, LiFeP04 and hub motor all the way!

However, as long as it is still practical enough for me to use as daily transportation, I'm going to stick to my mid-drive and my LiPo, because for all it's extra complexity and extra parts count, it's huge increase (I consider 60% to be huge ) in efficiency, I will use it instead.

I still have and love my Amped 9 x 7 DD hubbie, and I have NO plans to send it to the scrap yard, once I have time and ability (still really sick, but getting better) I will either have it laced or lace it into a new rim myself as project as it will be my "Fixie" the bike I can just get on and ride, no fuss, no worries, no checking every little thing before I ride E- bike.

When you add the contest of man, machine and a 24 mile course like the Assult on Pikes Peak, why the hell WOULDN'T I use the best option around?

If I were to attend, and I had the funds, I would love to see how much something like a Ecospeed or my own home brew mid-drive would perform. I know the Ecospeed would handle it no problem, my own current project *might* be tweaked to be more of a performance VS the cargo bike low torque hill climber with out regard for speed that I am working on, but I would probably need a different motor than I am going to use.

Hell, I bet if it was closer, Ecospeed would have attended, but hey, they are doing just fine selling their product, and I doubt they feel the need. Would be nice to see how they faced off with Opti, I imagine they would be a very close second if not a down-right contender for the fastest time.

 

[Bike_on]

[Yep, I think weight is the key as well, because it's extremely easy to check, universal, and tougher to cheat than anything involving trying to measure power. Weight means, as much as I would like to bring something with 20kw, I can't, because I would only be able to carry enough battery to go a few miles before I was eating enough 30sec penalties that it would be impossible for me to win. It would force both clever light weight bicycle designs, as well as pretty tight average power limits simply because you couldn't carry enough battery to make it up if you were excessively powerful.]

So basically a hub can make it up Pike's (ie. finish) if power is resticted in order to limit overheating. Running a bigger hub at 500W should make it up. Even then, a mid drive Kalkoff running 250W might not be far behind, IMO.

 

[Green Machine]

I rode an optibike for a month or two this year and reviewed it on another thread.

I thought it was an excellent machine but was too slow and as others have said expensive.

But on the other hand i think when you consider the quality of the build and the components ie rohloff drive, fox suspension, a lithium battery with a 30,000 mile warranty and all the amazing support the company gives the price is not too far fetched...especially considering it is made in the USA and is in limited production.

Since i have spent up to 7k on home builds consisting mostly of chinese parts i think 12k is not too much for an opti but then again if i spend that kind of money i dont want it to be slow...

I think: 1. speed 2. range 3. price are the 3 most important factors on an ebike followed by another big 3 : 1. reliability 2. aesthetics 3. Noise level (stealthiness)

I remember owning the opti i was extremely confident i wasnt going to smoke a controller or motor going up any hill...but at the same time i wished it was much faster.

Now that they have seemed to address that issue i think the optibike has become a formidable contendor for the best ebike available for instant purchase.

I think i said it before but a big congrads to opti at pikes this year for not only dominating a very challenging race but more importantly making a bold step to release a much more viable product to the market. if i spend 12k on a bike i dont want to be passed on some beater electric bike some other guy spent 1k on.

 

[Hillhater]

...I think: 1. speed 2. range 3. price are the 3 most important factors on an ebike

I remember owning the opti i was extremely confident i wasnt going to smoke a controller or motor going up any hill...but at the same time i wished it was much faster.

Now that they have seemed to address that issue i think the optibike has become a formidable contendor for the best ebike available for instant purchase.
.

They may have addressed the speed ( 35mph ?), but at considerable cost increase..
.. so that is only an improvement if cost is not a concern. ......... ( but you consider cost to be one of the top 3 factors ??)

 

[Green Machine]

Cost is huge dont get me wrong.

But i am thinking this might be the best commercially available bike on the planet right now and people are willing to spend to have the best.

I would love to take some credit for this because i really pushed hard for a fast optibike. It would make my day if optibike craig, a good guy, would acknowledge that cuz i was pushing really hard. I know he follows these threads like a hawk.

i know people who spend 30k on a wrist watch at the low end. 30k buys an entry level boutique watch. But no one would spend that kind of cash for a watch that doesnt even keep proper time no matter what the other factors are. Well speed is the #1 factor on an ebike....oh oh oh add low weight to the equation.

You got to keep things in perspective.

14k is not a lot of money for something hand built in america that is as potentially life changing as an optibike can be. Plenty of people will spend for speed, range, reliability and aesthetics.

Me personally i would rather spend 14k on this optibike before i would spend 11k on a stealth.

I mean i think in exagerrated manner but i think this new optibike might be one of the best bikes ever built...and 7 finishers out of 7 might be proof.

As an example I love matts yellow tadpole..think it is one of the best ebikes ever built ...but i doubt it would finish pikes...would bet against it at this point. Matt wants 9k for that bike, and that is a used bike. Optibike most definately has better resell value than a custom built bike as well.

Optibke pure and simple stepped up to the plate this time. You got to hand it to them.

I think i will get an opportunity to test ride this new optibike..and at that point i would like to continue my review. Because i think this new optibike is a "dream bike" even to a very skeptical and smart ES crowd.

 

[GrayKard]

I think i will get an opportunity to test ride this new optibike..and at that point i would like to continue my review. Because i think this new optibike is a "dream bike" even to a very skeptical and smart ES crowd.

You've shown a few times that you haven't a clue what ESers want in an ebike. So I'll go out on a limb and would say given the choice that most here would choose a Stealth bike over an Opti. Although I might choose the Opti if they throw in turn signal and brake lights. :wink:

Gary

 

[Green Machine]

Hey graycard,

I would love to do a poll thread on that thesis of yours and see if your right.

Like one of my heroes says...one test is worth a thousand opinions.

You want to wager anything on the results?

I dont know i would admit its hard for me to judge without riding both bikes first.

To me the optibike looks and weighs a hell of a lot better than the stealth.

Not to mention that almost any of the regular members here could build a stealth clone pretty easy compared to building an opti.

So you say if you can have either bike for free most es members would choose stealth?

Is that what your saying?

Also to get the ball rolling...you would pick a stealth over an opti if your given either for free?

 

[remf]

Check out this first hand report by the winner, John, lowco2. It's one of the best I've ever read, full of detail, pics, graphs, ride data and video. I want an Opti 1100R now.

http://www.teambaconstrip.com/2011/09/09/pike%E2%80%99s-peak-2011-racing-through-thin-air/

 

[kfong]

Anyone who seriously trail rides will choose the lighter bike.

 

[kfong]

Thanks for the link, I just read it and now even more impressed. Any ebike entering next year with a lot of weight is going to be at a major disadvantage. It's going to be tough to beat Opti.

Check out this first hand report by the winner, John, lowco2. It's one of the best I've ever read, full of detail, pics, graphs, ride data and video. I want an Opti 1100R now.

http://www.teambaconstrip.com/2011/09/09/pike%E2%80%99s-peak-2011-racing-through-thin-air/