Pikes Peak Race--Entering?

[Josh K.]

Hello,

Thanks for adding in Bill. Yes, I agree. When we have strong constraints, like the Watt Hour Allotment meter at PIR, then the riders have to be really
creative with the bikes, and the riding strategy, not just over compensating with horse power.

I could show up with my race trike, pushing 500 amps at 50 volts, and leave everyone behind, but what fun is it to kill ants with a sledge hammer?

I would rather that everyone who is riding, follow the law, for what an E bike is, and restrict the power to 750 watts max. Perhaps a limit of 1,000 watt hours of Go Go juice, so that everyone will have to focus on making their system as efficient as possible. It will matter that the motor runs cool, rpms are right, and the rider's energy actually adds a significant amount that will make a difference.

When Bill Beat me by a couple of laps at PIR a couple of years ago, we left the others behind who did not take it to the proper level, and I learned that I needed to have solid sides on my aerodynamic cover, instead of a sock, as well as a couple of other subtle, but significant upgrades. Additionally, it made me be the best that I could, and helped me to do the best ride that I have ever done. Something like, 32 mph, in one hour, on 450 watts, around 12.6 watt hours per mile...It was awesome. And this is what an event like pikes peak can help to create, if we play by the rules.

So, as I see it, the values created by restricting the event to the legal definition of what an E bike actually are:

1) it will push the efficiencies of our designs-

2) it will be safer for all involved-

3) it will level the playing field, so that others can compete, without big dollar budgets-

4) it will cause aerodynamics to become a factor-

5) it will help the riders pedal power to be more significant-

6) it will be a better representation to the public, as to what they can expect when they buy and run a legal E bike.

I guess I will reach out to Pat, and see if I can help to re organize the event, and help to keep E bikes included.

Josh K.

 

[neptronix]

What do you mean by keep ebikes included... by your definition, or by the definition that allowed optibike to win every year?

My bike is a power assist, not a motorcycle. After a proper detuning and cooling modifications, It will have just enough additional continuous power to beat optibike this year, and will not exceed 27mph. It has pedals and i had planned to pedal the entire way.

If you are trying to push him for a 750w limit, you let me know right now. I can start packing tomorrow, write off all the time i've spent developing this as wasted, and hopefully sell as much of the equipment i bought for this race ONLY.

 

[dogman dan]

Welcome to the club. My racing scene moved about 450 miles further from my house this year. Though able to drive to CA if I was heathier, it didn't make me thrilled to see the end of the DR. I wanted to at least spectate till I get healthy.

Honestly, kinda shocking that ebikes were even allowed in the fun ride of this pedal event. To me, the shortening of the race/ ride to a length any stock ebike with 700wh of battery could do easily kinda took a lot of my desire to show up out of this one. To me, the full 20+ miles of steep grade was the challenge.

Maybe you can clarify something for me. Are bikes banned from ever riding on that road? Or is this just the one day a year bikes can hog the entire route?

If bikes are allowed to ride, why not an unofficial, full length ride the day before if ebikes are not allowed this year? Throw down the challenge to optibike and see if they show up. Do it in the tradition of the original death race.

 

[Thud]

Ha, I was thinking about this thread last night & bam...its active again.
I have a BSO 29er I am contemplating a bb drive on just for killing Optibikes on hills....& this is a sweet hill.

I'll be following along to see if the e-bikers get to mingle with the athletes or if we need a rouge event parrallel to it....(which would kinda suck)

 

[mrbill]

Well, i guess that would mean i can forget competing against optibike since they wouldn't qualify, nor would i.. they also ran over the legal power limit 2 years in a row and got to use that as publicity for their product. Last year they ran something with a peak power of ~3000 watts ( their words )

That would be rather screwed up if he changed his mind at the last second and i'd basically have to scrap 5 months of tinkering & testing.. $1,200 of money spent.. prolonging a move - staying in this shitty city ( Colorado Springs ) for far longer than i'd like.. long enough to be around for the race.. just 2 months before the actual event.

Time to block that idea you just presented out of my head. .....

It sounds like Pat is leaning toward not allowing ebikes at all because of the power escalation last year. He probably doesn't want the ebikers to be the first to the top and may also be concerned about his liability in allowing super-stock ebikes to enter.

If you present him with in idea that power is restricted to the common legal limit, that riders will have to use significant human power in combination with lightweight, aerodynamic designs to be competitive, he may give the concept a second chance.

Tom Breedlove, who organized the ebike races at PIR in 2008-2010, discovered that without any power or energy restrictions on the participants, the winner was simply the guy on the most powerful bike. So, in 2009 he introduced a limit on battery energy for each event. This forced participants to address all aspects of bike design and operation.

If the race were held under the condition of limited power, you could still participate on a bike capable of more power by setting a current limit on your controller, either by programming the controller directly or by installing a CycleAnalyst. But, you'd also need to tune your fitness so that you could make a meaningful contribution yourself, to practice riding in a manner that gives you and your bike minimal drag, and to calculate beforehand exactly how much battery is necessary so as not to carry excess weight.

 

[neptronix]

Maybe you can clarify something for me. Are bikes banned from ever riding on that road? Or is this just the one day a year bikes can hog the entire route?

Yes, bikes are banned from riding that road. So you need to know the right people and pay a fair share of money to get it blocked off for a race event. There are plenty of roads like that out here. There aren't any bike lanes where you can safely plod along at a different speed than drivers on the hills, even in town there aren't really any bike lanes. This whole region of Colorado basically just sucks.

I do not have any $ lying around to get the highway open and don't know the magic words. Even then, not enough ES-ers will make it for it to be financially reasonable to do at all.

I'm sorry your race moved away from you, dogman It sounds like we are in the same boat.

MrBill and Josh.. you have a different idea of what an eBike should be than i and many others on the forums do. It suits your mid drive setups, but anyone with a hub motor ( like me ) will automatically lose if limited to 750w.

A few people have thought of the idea of having multiple classes of ebike. Would that not make more sense?

 

[cr0w]

I think the thing that is so frustrating is that bikes typically are not allowed on the road to the top. There aren't a lot of opportunities to ride a 14er, and fewer to do so in a race. Having everything turned upside down just a couple months before really sucks.

I wonder how tough it would be to organize an ebike only race to the top?

 

[dogman dan]

National Park Service horseshit then. ( no bikes allowed normaly) Same at white sands natl monument. It's a miracle that once a year hot air balloons are allowed to fly above the sand dunes. Tons of paperwork is done to make it happen, with many assurances that floating 1000 feet above sand will not harm sand.

Now they want to make the Organ mountains near Las Cruces a national monument. Oh god,,,,, please don't. An underutilized, nearly secret rock climbers heaven for 70 years will overnight become regulated by NPS frockheads. No hiking off trail, you might harm solid granite. Now pay me ten bucks.

 

[Josh K.]

Hey Folks,

They Normally, do not allow bicycles on the mountain, because of the dangers in the decent. One can melt their brakes right off, if they use
disc brakes with plastic adjusters, or cheap pads on caliper brakes, or...I used dual brakes, v brakes, and Disc brakes, because I am getting old,
and want to be around to compete year after year...

My suggestion of limiting the hill climbers to 750 watts, is to conform to the DOT standard of a E bike definition, to create a reasonable limit.

Otherwise, I would just bring my 500 Amp, 50 volt, E tek race machine, and kill ants with a sledge hammer...

The idea here, in My mind, is to be allowed to ride a bicycle, in a bicycle event. They have a motorcycle race event, and one can run a high
power electric motorcycle up the mountain if they do desire. I think that the constraints, will create better competition, and help to push the
designs of our equipment further to create more value for more people. Hub motors are stagnant in design, and need to incorporate planetary
gearing to shift the motors torque and speed, instead of over compensating with amperage, that is current. I bet a 1,000 watt hour limit would be
helpful, to allow for different types of equipment, but the same amount of potential energy, plus the riders pedal power.

I am coming at this as a cyclist, and am into efficiencies, and pedal assist. I want to see average Joe riders, able to ride with world class athletes,
showing the world that these technologies can enable people to experience amazing abilities, and improve the quality of life. I am not so much
into the bigger better faster more, aspects of life. On the other hand, racing is all about efficiencies, and one can go fast, with just a little bit
of extra energy, and I am working towards maximizing these benefits. Tomorrow, I get to test out my new Electric Mountain touring bike. We
are aiming for 65 miles of mountainous roads, in preparation for Ride the Rockies.

Who has the contact info for Pat, from assault the peak?

Josh K.

 

[neptronix]

Remember also that your federal and state speed limit is 20mph then. So you'll need to keep to that. I hope you don't plan on operating a bicycle capable of above that.

You're talking about making the electric bike section of this hill climb an electrathon. That's a different kind of competition. How are you going to enforce the 750 watt limit anyway, is Pat going to buy a dynamometer? What if i just bring a 95% efficient hub motor and whoop everyone?

As for your motorcycle idea, I think the motorcycle co will wonder where my DOT tires, brakes, side mirrors, turn signals, brake light and title/plates/registration are. I cannot register my bicycle as a motorcycle in the united states, so that is not an option.

I do not have a motorcycle, by any definition of the word.
They also closed registration about 4 months ago.

p.s. i am also a cyclist, but never professionally. I've been commuting for 15 years now and have never been interested in racing until i got into this electric stuff. I want a higher speed limit for electric bicycles so that they are a more realistic option for replacing cars. I am not unlike optibike in that mentality, except i do not have a business interest nor a former olympic coach on board.

 

[dogman dan]

It is a thorny subject for the organaizer. During the race for the clouds, there are quite strict rules for the way EV's that compete are built. None of my battery boxes would qualify. For that day, street legal is not an issue, the race to the clouds is a closed race course that day.

But for the organizers of the bike ride, allowing in an ebike that is not even street legal is not exactly going to be comfy for them. I can certainly understand thier pov, that this is a bike ride, and not a death race.

Organizing our own version, that closes the course and allows non street legal ebikes to compete will be a reall pita. Especially with NPS involved. Hoo boy, no thanks for me.

Perhaps if we really want to have an Ebike challenge race in colorado, a better approach would be to pick a tough ass dirt road, and do a death race style informal race there. Silverton to Lake valley for example, would be a real test of electric bikes for sure! Or maybe just one of the street rides over a tall pass. No shortage of those in CO. We have a decent one here in Southern NM, Emory pass, where we used do do our gravity racing. 10 miles of 8-10%, and few cops around early in the morning. Perfect for a flash mob sort of race.

 

[Green Machine]

I organized a hill climb race in San Francisco and the problem i see with organizing them is that there are few ebikes that will show up and compete. Although we had 25 or so riders show up....only about 4 bikes actually attempted the climb....and that was 3 miles away from major city SF. I vote we do another ES hill climb race in SF but i hope more riders show up.

The fact is there are very few ebikes built that can compete in a serious hill climb. That is one reason there is only a handful of competitors (other than optibike) that show up at pikes each year.

The organizer probably sees ebikes as a pain in the ass, and whats the point if only 10 or so ebikes show up anyway when he has 300 pedal bikers entering.

 

[neptronix]

Well, i'll be moving to Utah soon. I believe there are more opportunities there. And i'd like to get something started up if possible. ( sorry to go off topic, but what better place to mention it... ? )

There are actually bike lanes along the salt lake. Informally, we could do maybe some laps around it. There aren't a lot of cars around.. you'd think it's a big tourist attraction, but it is not.

The mountain range to the west of Salt Lake is pretty sparsely populated, and has a couple roads going up it as well. It's not as tall as the rockies, but it's probably fine as a motor melter. From approx. 4,000 ft. to a max of 10,000ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oquirrh_Mountains

It's mining country out there, so the likelihoood of them wanting to be preservationist about it is low, but parts might be blocked off, so i'll have to investigate. No promises. On the other side of the that mountain range is the salt flats though, so i'm sure they expect some crazy **** coming through there!

Southern Colorado itself though, just sucks. There are no bike lanes or shoulder up the mountains. If you melt your motor or run out of battery, you are dodging cars all the way down every single mountain pass, and as stated above, pike's peak opens up once a year.. so basically.. if this chance is ruined.. then forget it.

I bet you there is some cool stuff in Boulder and north of it, i'm just too far away to make it happen.


I bet you west coast dudes would rather truck out to Utah than Colorado, wouldn't ya..

 

[dogman dan]

Same deal on the mountain roads here. That's why dawn patroll on Emory pass would be the way to do it, same as any pass in Colorado. When we gravity raced Emory pass 35 years ago on ten speeds, we'd skip school on a nice fall day. On a weekday, we'd see perhaps two cars all day. No problem to use both lanes all the way down. Now, you share the road with a zillion harleys and crotch rockets. It is the road of choice for two wheel fun. At dawn though, the road is still empty.

If you are moving to Salt Lake City, dump the ebike hobby and put money into a season pass to Alta. Now thats a place for some fun. Skiing that is the best in the world from a chairlift.

 

[zombiess]

I would get back into paragliding if I lived in SLC. I'd still be into Ebikes, but paragliding at point of the mountain and skiing would be top of my list. If you want to feel the real power of nature, get into a paraglider, hang glider or sail plane and ride a >1000' per minute thermal to cloud base. It's sickeningly beautiful and all you hear is wind noise and the feeling of getting sucked into you seat as you enter the thermal and find it's core.

 

[dogman dan]

Some damn fun things to do in Salt Lake. Wierd liquour laws, but lots of adrenaline avaliable. Don't they do downhill mt bikes from the tram at snowbird all summer too? Yeah baby.

The only time I ever skied Alta, we were first off the lift behind the patroll, three feet of new pow, and I was defintitely telemarking it. 8)

 

[hillzofvalp]

The Cool Carbon system ensures the battery will never overheat- none
of the 7 bikes used on Pikes Peak had battery or motor overheat alerts
at any time on the 8000ft climb. This system makes sure the cells in
the pack (even the ones in the middle) cool evenly, so the cycle life,
performance, and durability of the pack are top notch. Essentially,
the cells are housed in a patented material that allows for even
cooling of the cells- really rad stuff- and you saw it here first.

Craig Taber
Optibike

I saw it at All Cell first, actually. Used it in our winning EVGP go kart. It is very nice stuff.. allowed us to take our 18650 pack to 5C without problems

 

[Alan B]

I organized a hill climb race in San Francisco and the problem i see with organizing them is that there are few ebikes that will show up and compete. Although we had 25 or so riders show up....only about 4 bikes actually attempted the climb....and that was 3 miles away from major city SF. I vote we do another ES hill climb race in SF but i hope more riders show up.

The fact is there are very few ebikes built that can compete in a serious hill climb. That is one reason there is only a handful of competitors (other than optibike) that show up at pikes each year.

The organizer probably sees ebikes as a pain in the ass, and whats the point if only 10 or so ebikes show up anyway when he has 300 pedal bikers entering.

Folks were more interested in a get together than a race, and the hill was steep enough to melt most hubmotors which isn't really all that fun. As a get together it did well, as a race not so much.

 

[pwbset]

I would get back into paragliding if I lived in SLC.

Hell yeah! I paraglided for 7 years before I broke an ankle and ran out of money some years back. Haha. Will paraglide again someday! Flown at POM, Camel, West, Inspo etc in SLC. Great places to fly, but I could never live there. Too busy for this Montana bumpkin. You still fly zombiess? There is some good stuff just west of Vegas I hear, but I never flew in Nevada. Tried for Walts at Owens Valley once, but it was blown out. God I miss paragliding. :?

 

[neptronix]

Ok, no email response from Pat. Called the guy 3 times. Left a message once. It's been over a week since i got him on the phone.

If i don't hear from him by Sunday, i am dismantling my build and not participating in the race. Am not paying $55 to participate in a race where we are all limited to the same power. That is lame.

 

[John in CR]

Neptronix, I'd just show up and blast by them all to the top. What are they going to do, arrest me? Josh, is right about one thing though. You should enter the real race, because the lycra brigade is a joke, and anyone whose favorite form of green transportation has to ride piggyback on a smoke belcher is hypocrite if they try to force their views on others.

Josh, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and in mine is that ebikes which are attractive to cyclists is a tiny market. I'm against any rule, law, or attitude that limits the appeal of the most efficient form of practical land transportation in existence to those already on two wheels. In responsible hands a much more powerful ebike than any current definition makes for a much more practical and safe form of transportation that will enjoy far broader appeal. Whether The Man wants to declare it some form of Motor Vehicle to tax and regulate is irrelevant, except in that it reduces the appeal.

John

 

[parajared]

Wow,
Good to see some pg pilots out there. My screen name parajared comes from my paragliding background.

To avoid everyone tossing a zillion amp hour pack and the most gargantuan beastly hub they can get their hands on, the event should be regulated by e-bike weight. That way people are free to configure their bikes any way they please, encourage building of light-weight super efficient machines, and still be regulated enough to require some athleticism.

If anyone has been to Golden Colorado the whole darn town seems to be about clean air and alternative fuel, or at least last time I was there. I imagine Colorado Springs (just a skip down the road) could muster enough sympathy to waive the legal aspects to have a "emissions free" "science" "technology" race up the side of Pike's Peak.

 

[neptronix]

Colorado Springs is the place where they have 5 military bases, don't do emissions testing ( unlike the rest of the state's metro areas ), and i am the only guy i know that has a fully operating electric bike. There are tons of gas bikes here. Nobody knows jack about electric here - I actually had to educate some guy at an electronics store that he couldn't do over unity by using two motors connected to each other.

It's the place that many liberal-leaning documentaries use as an example of poor city planning, the failure of privatization, and poor eating habits. A place where multiple gun shows happen per year. Where the street lights or police patrols don't happen because the city doesn't want to 'go into debt'.

Science, technical achievements, or emissions are the last things on their minds. CO Springs is truly it's own planet in Colorado. There are some interesting folks here but they are outnumbered by the idiots.

John, i like your idea, but the concept since day one was to beat optibike fair 'n square.

Surely nobody will notice.. :lol:

I don't want to create a hundred anti-ebiker lycras in one fell swoop though. Oh it would be fun. But not good for the area when they come banging at the city council's door trying to ban eBikes or hinder them. It's happened in a few places in Colorado already. And there are not enough of us here to fight back. When i say us, i mean me.

 

[neptronix]

John, you've been in Costa Rica so long that you forgot how constricting living in North America is... a position i'd love to be in

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, you want to be carefull about thumbing your nose at the event organizers, when the event is in National Park Service jurisdiction.

No bikes allowed 364 days a year, because you might bring a bike with poor brakes, fall down and go boom. As if a guy on a huffy is going to make it to the top in the first place!

Fun allowed only by special permission on NPS property, after filling out paperwork and several years of review by the legal staff. Ranger Rick lives to see that you have no fun at the national park or monument.

God bless america!