Pizza bike

[mr.electric]

I have been maintaining a small fleet of these for a Pizza Restaurant here in San Francisco
The bike in the image has a BMC or Mac front hub. The older versions I am maintaining came with 9 c motors on the rear 20" wheel. I set up one bike with a 40 amp controller and 9c rear wheel, they love it because it climbs with heavy loads. Unfortunately it breaks spokes regularly and it has become difficult to true the wheel. I set up another bike with a 9 c in the front wheel and a 20 amp controller and it is not powerful enough. I have several 9c motors lying around so I would save money by using them. I am
Setting up a third bike now. I could do a rear wheel or front wheel
motor. I have a Lyen 40 amp sensorless controller which allows me to run double phase wires through the axles of the 9c motors. The motor winding is unknown but I have both amped and Ebike kit and generic 9c motors that came initially laced in both 26" and 20" wheels.
The 20" rear wheel seems like a good set up if I could just get the spokes to last. Should I consider a moped rim? What size moped rim is close to a 20 and do the have angled spoke holes in the rim?
I could just do a 26" front wheel motor but I am afraid it would burn out running 40 amps climbing all the hills around the restaurant.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I don't know what the "best" solution would be for you, the Golden-Motor company sells the "Magic Pie" in a 20-inch wheel with a cast rim (no spokes). With the significant hills in your area, I would consider a BB-drive such as the GNG or the urbancommuterstore.com....

http://urbancommuterstore.com/Mid-Drive-Conversion-Kit_c9.htm
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42785

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13662

 

[kfong]

I would send John Holmes a pm and seek his advise on the matter. I think he has played with the moped style rims and has certainly done enough wheel builds.

 

[Lemlux]

I think this thread addresses the issue.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45814

 

[dogman dan]

9c in 20 inch wheel in back does sound like a winner. Spoke and rim issues might be solvable with higher quality build, or the best bet might be going moped rim, cast rim, or something else. Too bad they don't put some kind of minimal suspension on these cargo carriers to help the spokes.

As for running 40 amps heavily loaded up hills my vote is for dual motors. Possibly a mac up front, 20 amps per motor so they'll not fry so quick. Dual throttle so the front motor is used only as needed and can freewheel most of the time.

Not dual dd's because of the differing wheel size. No more 5300 motors, sigh,,,

 

[mr.electric]

Nice. That thread does cover it. I'm going for one of those motorbike rims and a bike tire.

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you go with a beefy 20-inch rim, consider a Pirelli moped tire. More air volume to add a tiny extra suspension on the rear, heavy-duty tread to reduce flats. Be aware it might make the tire OD similar to a 22-inch, so check the frame to make sure it will fit. Moped tire may also be too wide for V-brakes, but work well if you have rear disc-brake...

 

[Lemlux]

+1 on spinning magnet's V-brake caution. The linked Surly chromoly dropout-disc caliper mount (marketed as "Instigator Dropouts" in the Frame Building tab of Surly's Parts and Accessories pages) can double as a torque plate while upgrading to disc brakes. You may need to use 2 @ caliper mounts to compensate for the additional thickness of the Surly part.

http://surlybikes.com/parts/frame_building_parts

 

[mr.electric]

Thanks for the warning. It is a vbrake rear. That adds complications. So what about a 9 c front with a 40 amp controller. I have a 26 with doubled phase wires sitting here ready to slap on. Steel fork too. High chance of burning it up at 40 amps with heavy load and hilly terrain? I know the 9 c slower winds ( stock Ebike kit 26" wheel like i have ) can survive lots of hills and weight running 20 amps. Is 40 just too much for that big wheel?

 

[Trackman417]

Thanks for the warning. It is a vbrake rear. That adds complications. So what about a 9 c front with a 40 amp controller. I have a 26 with doubled phase wires sitting here ready to slap on. Steel fork too. High chance of burning it up at 40 amps with heavy load and hilly terrain? I know the 9 c slower winds ( stock Ebike kit 26" wheel like i have ) can survive lots of hills and weight running 20 amps. Is 40 just too much for that big wheel?

You still have traction on the front wheel going up hills?
I bet would be you might be spinning your front wheel, from a dead stop at the bottom the hill. I would go dogman's route, except go with two 9c motors. No gears to worry about tearing up and my guess they wont overheat as fast, either.
Well, you have 17 different people telling you to do ten different things, whacha going to choose

 

[Lessss]

Mag style rims beat spokes anyday, they even help cool the motor IMO.

I would love to maintain bikes for a business like that.

 

[mr.electric]

I have like 3 9c motors around my garage. They have been great for various ebikes. I've always run them at 20 - 25 amps with sensored controllers. Only recently I discovered that it is easy to remove the hall wires, add double phase wires and run a sensorless cylite or lyen controller at 40 amps. I don't have much of a concept of how quick they burn out or over heat at 40 amps. I always run 48 volts.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I've never done this, but the threads on adding a water-proof coating to the internals and then drilling holes in the side-plates has apparently worked very well. If the thought still causes you some concern, these mods were inspired by a cars alternator, an open frame and sealed internals shed heat well.

Add a temp probe and mod one of the 9C's to see what results you get on your hills.

 

[amberwolf]

Definitely the small 20" rim on a 9C works really well; I've been using that combination on teh big heavy CrazyBIke2 for a couple months or more now, and it's way better at takeoffs even with heavy loads than a 26" wheel on the same motor, even with a lot more power into the motor from the controller (it just gets wasted as heat). Have yet to try hillclimbing with it, but I'm sure it does a lot better than the 26" did.

Unfortunatley the radial spoking with the cheap thick spokes it comes with, and cheap doublewall "champion" rim, aren't up to the task and I've broken two spokes at the threads just tensioning and truing it, and one at the elbow while riding before that. (so presently it's actually missing three spokes and rides terribly)

Going with a moped or motorcycle rim, and good brand spokes (not necessarily thick heavy ones, just good double-butted ones) would greatly improve the ability of the wheel to handle the loads needed. On my bike, that's 300lbs of rider and bike, probably about 200 of that on the rear wheel itself, possibly more. Hauling dogfood, that can add 60 to 150lbs or more directly on the rear wheel, when not using the trailer. I suspect that's a lot more than the pizza delivery bikes will see. (but I break wheels all the time)


Regarding venting, as long as you are running reasonable phase amps on the controller (i.e., the motor is still quiet even when loaded down, and doesnt' sound like it's grinding and vibrating like a badly tuned ICE), then it will probably stay cool enough even at 2KW constant if it's vented properly. Mine is vented with big holes on one side, and little holes only at the periphery on the other, but I have never yet tested to see if this truly improves airflow. I only know that it does run hotter (hand test) without venting. Active cooling, like something to force air to flow all the time (even when stopped) thru the motor from left outside to inside to right outside, forcing it to go thru the airgap of stator/magnets, would probably make a much more effective cooling solution. But it would rpobalby be noisy.

 

[Farfle]

My vote is for an external magic pie in a 20" cast rim with a moped tire 20" gives good torque without overheating, and the magic pie is a decent motor (probably equal or slightly better than the 9C) , use the surly add-a-disk in the back, and good set of disks on a stout fork in the front and call it good.

 

[mr.electric]

I have always wanted to make a manifold that pumps air from a little pump through a hub motor. I envision a little cup shape like a small Tupperware or the bottom of a 2liter bottle that mounts to the fork at the drop out. The open side is as close to the hub shell as possible. A tube from the air pump is connected to the back of the cup. A row of holes on the hub side cover allow the pressurized air in, holes on the other side allow the air out. Of course a lot of air would leak past the gap between the lip of the cup shaped manifold and the face of the side cover but some should pump through the hub too. This set up would be worth a try if I were going high enough power to kill a front hub.

 

[mr.electric]

A magic pie 20" mag wheel would seem to be a good solution. These pizza guys have killed 4 9c rear 20" s. I noticed dents in the rim , over 10 broken spokes , cut wires out of the axles etc.
The cheap radial spokes don't help the situation. Is it a given that a magic pie mag wheel would not break , crack or bend. I guess the moped tire might help protect the rim from sidewalk dents.

 

[mr.electric]

Any recommended vendors for Golden Motors product out there?

 

[wineboyrider]

Of course you need regen on this setup.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[John in CR]

Mr.Electric,

You've gotta build these people a proper drive system for those bikes. Maintenance should be 0 on the electric part. You're in SF, which means hills. You've got delivery guys who will abuse them, and it looks like a load that is carried, so forget the spokes. Ebikes that break down hurts the cause.

Without stepping up to a scooter motor the only viable alternative is 2wd, so get the MagPies with the solid 16" or 18" alloy rim, one on front and one on the rear using a pair of the softest start controllers you can find. Get the beefiest tires you can find and tire availability may dictate the rim size, so probably a 16". Many of those cheapie low power e-mopeds run some nice 16's. Yes on the regen to keep brake maintenance low too with soft setting for both...one activated with the brake lever and the other on a horn button for different levels of regen force.

Then you can tell them to call you when they need new batteries.

John

 

[mr.electric]

John ,
I don't want to be the Maytag man sitting around waiting for something to break. But you are correct that some amount of reliability is need just to keep electrics' image good.
I can't find magic pie for sale online except on eBay and they want almost $200 to ship from china!
Any recommended vendors?

 

[Lemlux]

I'm not aware of any distributors left in the US, but the Canadian distributor has graciously answered a number of questions I've put to him.

http://www.goldenmotor.ca/

 

[nieles]

you can order direcly from golden motor:

http://www.goldenmotor.com/

or

http://www.goldenmotor.ca/

 

[John in CR]

John ,
I don't want to be the Maytag man sitting around waiting for something to break. But you are correct that some amount of reliability is need just to keep electrics' image good.

That attitude is exactly why the car companies resist electrics. Give them absolute reliability and make your $ on sales. An alternative would be to do them on lease with you responsible for all maintenance. Have the refundable deposit sufficient to cover original cost and you don't need much capital to get it going. There's no reason you can't get almost any place with local express service aboard with that deal if presented correctly. Build up to hundreds of delivery ebikes out on lease at say $1-2/day each, or whatever a fair but economical price compared to the alternatives, and you'll be ready to franchise. Then you'll be glad you listened regarding durability and reliability. You should be giving them at least 90 day warranties anyway.

John

PS- Maytags are electric too. That's why they're reliable, and an ebike maintenance guy should be sitting around like the Maytag repairman.

PSS- Sell advertising on the sides as some icing on the cake income. Most will pay for their own name on the delivery bikes, but not all. They'll see value in that alone, and it is effective, since ebikes are eye catchers, so it will be able to reduce the bike lease rate to something almost ridiculously low. You could even do a gimmick approach, by starting off with how would they like effective advertising for only $5/day? Then with the refundable deposit the ebike is free. Damn, that's such a good idea that you should pay me a consulting fee, or at least a small percentage if you go big.

 

[mr.electric]

Ok I may order a magic pie 20" if I can get a good price. I just found another broken spoke on the radial laced 9c 20" in operation. It seems to break about 1 spoke a week and once 3 or 4 break it starts to let go fast. Replaced over ten spokes on one visit.
The rebuild of bike # 3 is nearing completion. Went with a 9c on a fat tire because I had one already laced up and it looks cool. The magic pie 20" will go on the bike that already has a 20" rear motor. unfortunately the fat wheel I had is radial laced . I would have preferred cross lace. I used a Surly Steel fork and a torque arm. Rewired the motor with double phase wires and axed the hall wires. This treatment is getting to be easy to perform. Now on the 3rd 9c motor rewire job I got it rewired and reassembled in about 45 minutes.