Pouch cell

[peadar]

Was looking for something to connect series connection for pouch cells the link shows bussbar for such use,
Aluminum to copper
Any first hand info?

Copper Aluminum Dovetail Clad / Battery Bus Bars & Lead Tabs

Side-by-side copper aluminum cladding produces bus bar and lead tab metal with lowest electrical resistance for cooler, smaller Li-ion packs. Dovetail Clad Bus Bars facilitate laser welding of like metals and can simplify bussing.

www.materion.com

 

[999zip999]

I build a couple of packs with aluminum bus bar then plastic aluminum plus bar then plastic.
You'll find it in the A123 20ah thread by Big moose.
It's a lot of pages but it's in the first second or third page. I think the name is druridge is the guy who invented this. Of course I didn't spell his name right.

 

[999zip999]

A123 20AHr Pouch Cell Battery Build & Info Thread


Here you go it's on the second page the guy even made a parts list up just remember the through rods have to have a piece of plastic coating on them because they're going across the whole pack and touching every cell in the series . I went to the hardware store and got the tube for an ice maker and put that over the threaded rod as I pass it through all the holes you can also use copper pop rivets.
What cells are you going to use how big of a battery are you going to make and what are you going to use it for where did you get those pouches ???

 

[999zip999]

Here's my build thread of a different type of cell with the tabs at either end. Get them all to the same voltage for ez balance before assembly. I'm curious tell me what's up with this thing how big it's going to be.
Good luck.

Spim08hp 3.7v 8ah 200amp cell build

I bought 40 cells 36 new and 4 used. One used has a small dent as if a plastic corner made a very small dent. I wonder if this is safe or ask for replacement ? Ok so the plan was a 10s 2p x 2 big to big so a 20s 1p or 72v 8ah for a bmc 600 hs and em3ev 12fet at 40amp set to 30amp Max. Or 15s 2p...

endless-sphere.com

thanks

 

[peadar]

Here's my build thread of a different type of cell with the tabs at either end. Get them all to the same voltage for ez balance before assembly. I'm curious tell me what's up with this thing how big it's going to be.
Good luck.

Spim08hp 3.7v 8ah 200amp cell build

I bought 40 cells 36 new and 4 used. One used has a small dent as if a plastic corner made a very small dent. I wonder if this is safe or ask for replacement ? Ok so the plan was a 10s 2p x 2 big to big so a 20s 1p or 72v 8ah for a bmc 600 hs and em3ev 12fet at 40amp set to 30amp Max. Or 15s 2p...

endless-sphere.com

thanks

My issue is with dissimilar metals,
My cells are new in the box all the same and came with quality control datasheet,
They are Kokam nmc 57ah sitting at 3.6v
I have a build page here, but not great with link, it's a 8kw Kawasaki ninja 250 build, 96v
If I were to build with the long rods maybe two packs of 12s would be better, 24s stack is 16". That's a lot of connections between,8" stack seems better connection, with two packs I could connect them with big safety fuse, it might keep the pack cooler to be in two pieces, what would the cons be?, i have the space!

 

[999zip999]

That's a great cell with good history. 57ah should have a lot of headroom still depends on your controller and it's demands as everything has it's limits. A split pack makes sense fitting in a motorcycle. Make a cardboard box as two 12s and see. 16in. is not to big ?
What motor and controller ?

 

[peadar]

8kw hub nd96850 don't know how to send link

 

[Portugaline]

I was able to solder the tabs using aluminium flux and a very big iron, maybe you can too

 

[999zip999]

You can use that as the ultimate watchdog if you're dropping your solder you know you're getting the battery too hot when you're using it.
Pic of solder and flux please ?

 

[peadar]

I was able to solder the tabs using aluminium flux and a very big iron, maybe you can too

View attachment 351271View attachment 351272View attachment 351273

what do you use for heatsink to protect cell?

 

[Portugaline]

what do you use for heatsink to protect cell?

this cells are 60ah big cells, no need for heatsink, the tabs are cold 5 seconds after removing the iron. I think the trick is a big big iron to go in and out quick.

 

[Portugaline]

You can use that as the ultimate watchdog if you're dropping your solder you know you're getting the battery too hot when you're using it.
Pic of solder and flux please ?

I will try to find a photo of the cells after solder, the product I used was this one:

 

[999zip999]

Interesting as 60/40 would not I hear you could knock it off with your fingertip. How does it do with a flex test and pull. On a test piece .of course.

 

[Portugaline]

Interesting as 60/40 would not I hear you could knock it off with your fingertip. How does it do with a flex test and pull. On a test piece .of course.

I was able to solder with 60/40 but was a mess, too much heat needed until the solder flows on the metal for good connection and the aluminium flux is needed, but with the soldering wire on the kit is very easy. the solder on the kit with the flux is 85% tin and 15% zinc.

 

[DogDipstick]

Perhaps a TYCO TERMIFOIL is what you are after

Zero uses them for the pouch cell MC.

Termifoil tyco - Google Search

 

[DogDipstick]

View attachment 351273

I see your construction here.

DO YOU have any insulation from cell pouch to cell pouch?

Quickest way to see a corroded cell.. to make corrosion in a pack... is to link pouch case to ground. Isolation cell to cell prevents this.

 

[DogDipstick]

I make mine out or a strip of plated copper called " Eriflex Flexibar and upset the sheet insevern or eight folding/ punch assembly line operations. Every one is identical to the next. Best I can. Punch, half fold, curve, flod, punch, fold, separate, fold fold fold.

Eriflex flexibar..

 

[999zip999]

Dog dip stick I like those clamps but I couldn't find a price on them all you have to do is clamp together they even have a spot for us balance wire.

 

[Portugaline]

I see your construction here.

DO YOU have any insulation from cell pouch to cell pouch?

Quickest way to see a corroded cell.. to make corrosion in a pack... is to link pouch case to ground. Isolation cell to cell prevents this.

The cells appears to be covered in some kind of tick plastic from factory, the cells have no continuity I tested this myself.

 

[999zip999]

He's talking about putting a separation plate between the two cells as they are in series.

 

[DogDipstick]

The cells appears to be covered in some kind of tick plastic from factory, the cells have no continuity I tested this myself.

Yes; this is true; however, . Good of you to try to make a discernible measurement relative to the issue. Comment on the action.

Yes it is a poly plastic layer over the aluminum pouch cell case... very thin, fragile...

Your conclusion based on your test is inaccurate in the result. We seek. No SEM layer deformation, early lifespan of new cell.

You might not read any voltage today. On a brand new cell. Brand new cells are in good condition. There is no reason to have any imperfection, no reason to think there is damage present. to read any voltage.

It is one, five, ten years frm now that you would be. Damage might incur along the life of the cell in situ in the battery pack. The cell will " lose its isolation" and at that moment... you will have wished you had used a sheet of fish paper, or Kapton, in between the cells.
Then... but it will be to late to save the pack.


You might not see any... or read any... corrosion or polarization today.

Someday this is inevitable. No battery lasts forever. we know this, as correct, friend?

Time in a bike is hard. You dont want a fail ... five, six, eight... twelve years from now. you will wish then you had separated layers. Reading any voltage today gives us no result excet for the manufacturer layer of isolation is working correct.

The process is:
Polarize Al layer of pouch to the negative potential of the cell.... ( time might do this, rubbing might do this, poor construction might do this, shifting pack might do this, if no cell to cell layer separation. Physical damage, or even strong acid rain... ) ..

Once polarized... the Al layer will begin to deform...Within 2 weeks, the pouch corrosion sites will develop wide, black blisters..... The cell pouch no longer appeared tightly fitted around the cell electrode stack... corrosion sites on cell develop, black and
, grey blister, both on the corners, at the bottom.... ( pouch will look loose, or " gassy"... filled with extra gas... ).


The process is;

• Defective inner isolation layer of
the laminate pouch results in
corrosion of the Al layer
• Polarizing the Al layer to the (-)
terminal is the quick method. This is a test of "Pouch isolation resistance"... how resistant the pouch is to losing its isolation.

It is important friend.

 

[DogDipstick]

I

Dog dip stick I like those clamps but I couldn't find a price on them all you have to do is clamp together they even have a spot for us balance wire.

I am sorry, I said " Tyco" electronics, I meant " TE connectivity". .. I get them mixed up. Here is where to buy them. In stock. Buy from Digikey.. fast shipping times, no wait, and good customer service.


Small:
TE Internal #: 329860-1
Foil Terminals, Barrel, Type 1, Tin Plating, Package, 16 – 14 AWG
Wire Size, 1.25 – 2 mm² Wire Size, 150 °C [302 °F], TERMI-FOIL


LINK:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/329860-1/2258754

Family series from TECON... they make 22 sizes, from small ( above) to large... from about 0.50cent ea, ( small) to about 6.00$ ea... ( large)

I can only use " (LARGE) at 6.00$ ea? No this is why I make my own nickel plated copper crimping bars. 21 plates per pack, at 6$ ea, would give me a cost of .... 126$ in the Termifoil...

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/foil-connectors/402?s=N4IgjCBcoLQCxVAYygMwIYBsDOBTANCAG4B2aWehA9lANrgBMcAHAGwgC6hADgC5QgQAXxFA

Here is example of large; this is what i would want IF I bought them and did not make them.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/330005/1153430

I have talked to a few supply houses to stamp my own en masse. I can get them down to 15 cent ea if i buy 10,000+.

I have option to buy 10,000, 100K, or 1 million of them. Quoted from a local supply stamp house manufacturer. You might see mine on eBay soon. A small professional manufactured answer to the hobbyist need. I get asked about them alot.. My dad has been telling me to have them made. I kinda think I should. i get asked this alot.

 

[Portugaline]

Yes; this is true; however, . Good of you to try to make a discernible measurement relative to the issue. Comment on the action.

Yes it is a poly plastic layer over the aluminum pouch cell case... very thin, fragile...

Your conclusion based on your test is inaccurate in the result. We seek. No SEM layer deformation, early lifespan of new cell.

You might not read any voltage today. On a brand new cell. Brand new cells are in good condition. There is no reason to have any imperfection, no reason to think there is damage present. to read any voltage.

It is one, five, ten years frm now that you would be. Damage might incur along the life of the cell in situ in the battery pack. The cell will " lose its isolation" and at that moment... you will have wished you had used a sheet of fish paper, or Kapton, in between the cells.
Then... but it will be to late to save the pack.


You might not see any... or read any... corrosion or polarization today.

Someday this is inevitable. No battery lasts forever. we know this, as correct, friend?

Time in a bike is hard. You dont want a fail ... five, six, eight... twelve years from now. you will wish then you had separated layers. Reading any voltage today gives us no result excet for the manufacturer layer of isolation is working correct.

The process is:
Polarize Al layer of pouch to the negative potential of the cell.... ( time might do this, rubbing might do this, poor construction might do this, shifting pack might do this, if no cell to cell layer separation. Physical damage, or even strong acid rain... ) ..

Once polarized... the Al layer will begin to deform...Within 2 weeks, the pouch corrosion sites will develop wide, black blisters..... The cell pouch no longer appeared tightly fitted around the cell electrode stack... corrosion sites on cell develop, black and
, grey blister, both on the corners, at the bottom.... ( pouch will look loose, or " gassy"... filled with extra gas... ).


The process is;

• Defective inner isolation layer of
the laminate pouch results in
corrosion of the Al layer
• Polarizing the Al layer to the (-)
terminal is the quick method. This is a test of "Pouch isolation resistance"... how resistant the pouch is to losing its isolation.

It is important friend.

Ok so what you are telling me is the protective layer can get damaged and I should have a planb like krapton tape in case this happens?

 

[DogDipstick]

Ok so what you are telling me is the protective layer can get damaged and I should have a planb like krapton tape in case this happens?

Yes exactly.

 

[999zip999]

Just something in between the pouches so if they do them move around they won't wear out the coating.. if they touch in when the pouches are in series you will have trouble. Just like 18650 cans if one series connection touches the other cells in series' connection trouble.