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[amberwolf]

There isn't a specific controller that would keep you from overheating things, except by using one that has a low enough current limit that it can't supply more than the basic recommended amps and volts to whatever motor you use, and then making sure you don't use it for lots of full stops and starts or lots of hill climbing, with the heavy load. (because you can still build up too much heat in a motor even with a small limited controller by repeatedly or continously using it at it's max burst power levels, especially if it's already hot weather; I've done this before here in Phoenix, and Dogman has probably done it on mountains out in NM).


However, you can use a bigger controller with a bigger motor, or use something like the Cycle Analyst v3 with temperature monitoring to rollback power limits as it heats up, or simply use a BBQ thermometer modified to go inside the motor (and another inside the controller, perhaps) to manually monitor temperatures, and manually use less throttle or just plain stop and wait if things get too warm.


Some kinds of motors (geared types, uusally) will retain heat longer so they can overheat easier than others (Direct Drve or DD), which have less "layers" of stuff in them to pass heat thru to get it out of the motor.

There's ways to cool a motor, but not all of them are effective in all situations, and some may not be practical for yours. Some require modifications you might not want to do, or be able to yourself. If you use "enough" motor for your task you probalby won't have to worry about cooling it more than it's original design allows for.

I'm presently finding that small diameter wheels (at least in the rear, 20"), 2WD, and "normal" (40A) current limits are doing most of what I want to do with my heavy CrazyBike2. A middrive is planned for a future version, and it should be easier to cool and have higher current limits, and allow any size wheel I want/need without worrying about the motor handling it (I just change gearing between motor and wheel to compensate).

 

[dogman dan]

That's a big load for sure. We can understand your problem much better now that we have an idea what the loads will be.

I had the same problem with a guy I was chatting with yesterday. He kept insisting he needed a two motor setup on his delta trike. I couldn't understand at first, till he said the trike would always be carrying two. Two motors for that kind of trike is not exactly easy due to the type of rear axle.

But your problem might be solved the same way, two motors, and two fairly ordinary controllers rather than one "bike size" hubmotor.

The other option would be to look at more powerful scooter motors, and larger controllers, smaller wheels. At some point, you are well into golf cart stuff, which is designed to haul two fat guys, a case of beer, and 150 pounds of golf clubs up very steep hills on golf courses.

 

[Ypedal]

Someone say Burnout...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJnPxF9hpSI

[youtube]AJnPxF9hpSI[/youtube]

 

[heliolatrix]

I am thinking about installing a mid-drive motor on my bicycle, and I am worried that driving the crank just will not work on our steep hills. Any ideas where to get a two speed gear for a mid drive?

I am hopping that some one can tell me how much torque 8 speed drive chains can handle. And how much force would an Eco-speed motor put on said chain at a cranking speed.

We have hills up to 9 percent grade. Some worse, but those can be avoided. And a total combined weight of about 350lbs to 400lbs = 40lb bike + batteries and motor + 225lb rider + 60lb cargo.

I think that driving the rear wheel directly may be best, if I use a large enough rim pulley on the drive wheel. However I think the only rim that will fit is a 409mm (for a 20 inch tire)

Is there a better motor of at least 750 watts that is rain proof? I think that the Ecospeed is 1300 watts....??

 

[dnmun]

is that a new ecospeed design? does not look familiar.

 

[heliolatrix]

for all that I know it may not be, but this is what comes up for "ecospeed motor"

maybe this mounting hardware is custom made????

 

[slacker]

Hope you have lots of money as ecospeed is very expensive. Good luck with your build.

 

[spinningmagnets]

The blue bike was a custom cargo bike for the NAHBS convention (IIRC)...(*Googles furiously...aha!)

Once upon a time, Dave Levy lived, worked, and played in Seattle, WA. He had a car free lifestyle. Currently, he resides in Portland, OR on some acreage that is home to both his residence and his shop. The location is up in the west hills, and the automobile has become a staple in his life. The above cargo bike came about in an effort to go back to a car free lifestyle. The engineer in Dave really came through on this build.

Because hills are a pain to climb riding a monstrosity such as this one, an electric motor made it’s way into the specs list. This one is from Ecospeed, and has an output of 1300 watts. It also features a cruise control mode that lowers the output to 200 watts and only operates in an assist mode. This allows for 20mph at a 60rpm pedal cadence.

This bike has 100% more belt, thanks to a Gates Belt Drive for both the electric motor and the crankset. The front half of the drivetrain is an FSA Metropolis (Patterson 2 speed) set up. Dave also made use of part of the mid shaft setup from Todd Schusterman (Davinci Tandems) to connect everything up front for maximum efficiency and helping to maximize battery life.

A lot of thought went into redesigning the traditional cargo box. Space is typically lost up front due to the steering linkage. This bike is designed with two head tubes and three headsets, as well as a custom steering linkage that goes all the way under the box and up the front non-drive side tube of the box frame. This helps maximize the cargo space.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/27...tric-cargo-bike-hydraulic-brake-line-coupler/

 

[recumpence]

Kind of funny how he is using a belt from the cranks to the jackshaft and from the jackshaft to the wheel but NOT from the motor to the jackshaft. The one area that REALLY needs a belt is from the motor to the jackshaft, not the other way around. The higher the RPM, the more beneficial a toothed belt is.

I appreciate Eco-Speed. They really started a boom in the mid-drive market. But, they are using old technology, charging a fortune for it, and have not moved forward with their design [other than new mounting brackets. Their foundational design of motor, controller, and chain drive is unchanged].

Sorry to be critical. I have no problem with expensive equipment. I just feel as though for the amount of money charged for some of this stuff, you should get more than why they offer. It is old technology with fancy looking brackets. Lets focus on quality first with looks second. Looks are important. But, function is much more so.

Matt

 

[heliolatrix]

I would defiantly like to find a motor that is cheaper and controller that is better. But the motor has to fit between the cranks. Got any ideas? like this Motenergy ME0909 Motor with Alltrax AXE4834 Controller?? well that may be way more power than I need. I think the legal max wattage is 1200 for the state of Washington.
http://www.cloudelectric.com/product-p/pk-m909-axe4834.htm

Also note the gear cable on this photo, there is some kind of adjustable gear on the jack shaft, I think. But is it worth the effort and money??

maybe what I need to do is rig the rim pulley with out a jack shaft then if I need it I can change it later.

 

[heliolatrix]

I wanted to use a Sturmy-Archer 3 speed for a mid drive.
[/b]
But would a 1200 watt motor destroy it? Actually it may need only a 750 watt motor what with lower gears. Is there a programmable controller that could be set to not accelerate too fast?

I want to go to a rim pulley on the drive wheel.
Doesn't anyone make a 409mm rim pulley kit that is notched inside? It would not need many notches to keep a timing belt from slipping. Maybe only 6 or 8 ?? Any ideas how to make notches with out a welder?

I will need some stainless steel brackets to hold it in-place on the 26 inch wheel. But I could make those.

And the rear drive hub would be a Nuvinci gear hub so that cranking could be synchronized to motors power very easy.

One good side effect of doing it this way , would be that you won't end up with a top speed so fast that cops would nab you.

 

[heliolatrix]

 

[amberwolf]

look up aussiejester's hobo custom cruiser. he made a pulley by using a belt to cast it's own grooves.

 

[heliolatrix]

To drive the rear wheel with a three speed Sturmy-Archer gear hub (as a geared mid-drive).

The drive sprocket on the three speed gear hub, threads onto it in a clockwise direction. The motor will need to run a belt to a pulley mounted to the spoke flange of the other side, in a clock wise direction (this would be normally on the non-crank drive side of the bicycle, left side). Now it will be on the reverse side (crank chain side) of the bicycle.

That way the chain on the sprocket side will be pulling in the normal direction on the threads as it pulls the large sprocket mounted on the rear wheel.

Then forget the rim pulley.

This bike does the same thing but it drives the crank as well as the rear wheel. The gearing down is just to make the crank move at 60 RPM. Not the best idea.

some times i wonder if there is no one on this forum.

 

[heliolatrix]

I would really like to find some kind of 2 or 3 speed gear mechanism that is strong enough for two children and an adult with out adding so much weight as a motorcycle gear box would. I keep visualizing a Sturmy-Archer 3 speed hub, but I just don't think it could handle a one HP motor and at least 450lbs on 9% grades.

In place of a rim pulley we may need to use a 12 inch or bigger motorcycle sprocket on the rear wheel. Anybody know where to get a really big one that is not to thick?

Keep in mind that our children keep getting larger and larger. I am thinking that the maximum a tricycle could possibly weigh would be a massive 500lbs? A bicycle having only two wheels maybe less? Although we are thinking about steel rim wheels with 11 gauge spokes. Too bad we can't just build a motor tricycle.

This might work?

 

[amberwolf]

some times i wonder if there is no one on this forum.

There are, but you're not even responding to the one that is trying to help you. That won't encourage anyone else to try, or the one to continue tryng.

Also, a number of your questions have been asked, answered, developed, used, etc., in various existing threads, and people may be tired of re-answering them. Have you looked at the existing threads about the variuos many kinds of middrives?

 

[heliolatrix]

You should try riding 5 miles to the library with two children on a bike, it is incredibly hard.

So I found the thread for the 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser, But what is a 2 Speed Thudster box? this looks like it: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20588&start=150 did he use an electric relay to shift to over drive?


I give up, i would probably need clutch if i used a motor cycle gear box.

some times i wonder if there is no one on this forum.

There are, but you're not even responding to the one that is trying to help you. That won't encourage anyone else to try, or the one to continue tryng.

Also, a number of your questions have been asked, answered, developed, used, etc., in various existing threads, and people may be tired of re-answering them. Have you looked at the existing threads about the variuos many kinds of middrives?

 

[amberwolf]

You should try riding 5 miles to the library with two children on a bike, it is incredibly hard.

These days I pull my St Bernards in a trailer behind CrazyBike2, and used to carry other dogs in the cargo pod or basket on previous bikes (like Hachi as a pup, before she grew too big (100lbs) to fit on DayGlo Avenger), including regular bikes before my knees /etc "encouraged" me to go electric. There's pics and more info on that in my various build threads.

And I've used trailers and baskets and cargo pods on regular bikes (and later my electric monstrosities) to haul multi-hundred-pound loads before I knew about electric and after, so I understand about the problem. Pics and info on that in the threads, too.

I can imagine having two potentially wiggly kids actually *on* the bike with you would be near-impossible to deal with; at least in a trailer much fo the motion is decoupled from the bike-balancing-act. That's much of why I use trailers to haul my big dogs, cuz one of them weighs 140lbs--very close to what I did before the housefire (I gained a lot after that).

So I found the thread for the 2 Speed H.O.B.O Powered e-Cruiser, But what is a 2 Speed Thudster box? this looks like it: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=20588&start=150 did he use an electric relay to shift to over drive?

It's been a long time, so I dont' remember details, but it's a dog-clutch gearbox that Thud made here on ES. A search of Thud's posts ought to show the thread for it if you're interested in it--I don't remember how it works, but you'd have to build it yourself anyway as it's not an off-the-shelf thing. FWIW, Aussiejester's threads are generally pretty detailed, so if you want to know more about his builds you could read thru them and probably find most of the stuff needed to duplicate his builds in there--but they are a LOT of work.

However, the reason I "sent" you to Aussiejester's thread was for how to make your own toothed pulley, which you said you don't want to use now.

I don't have any answer for you on the MC pulleys. Maybe someone else reading the thread might.

Somewhere in one of AJ's threads there is a discussion (and pics?) of an SA 3-speed hub failure and ways to mitigate it.

I give up, i would probably need clutch if i used a motor cycle gear box.

I thought you'd already said you didn't want to use an MC transmission anyway? :? I can't help with that stuff if you do, though, cuz I don't know anything about them.


As for the other types of gearbox, internally geared hubs (IGH), etc., as I said before there really are a lot of threads discussing such things, many here in this subforum, if you want to spend the time reading around. (it could take a lot of time to find them and read them, though it'd be worth it if you want to know what worked and what didn't, out of what people have tried--most things discussed never actually get built or tested, though).

You can also look at the cargo bike build threads in my signature, for some discussion of a NuVinci as a transmission, and for the early versions of CrazyBike2 with powerchair motors thru the pedal chaindrive.

 

[crossbreak]

torque has to be within spec, this is it. Such a 3-speed hub can take 50 Nm max. You just have to find out which reduction you need. So you need to calc target input rpm of the 3-speed hub input:

if you want xxxxW you have to just take the formula with torque, power and rpm:
P = T *n /9.55

T= 50 Nm (torque
P = 1000W (power
n? (rpm

n= 9.55 * P/T = 9.55 * 1000W / 50Nm = 191rpm

You (hopefully) know how fast you motor goes, so you can now calc reduction: motor-rpm/ 3-speed-hub-input-rpm

output reduction can be calced similary from target wheel speed (like a target wheel speed of 400rpm for 50kph with a 26" wheel, for example ) then. hope this helps

 

[heliolatrix]

I can't find any of the threads suggested. But i did find amberwolf's blog. not that I found any cargo bikes on it. search engines do work like they should.

Thank you for the math!

Does any one know where i can get a large sprocket that I can bolt on a wheel? Probably should fit bicycle chains, but maybe for heavy duty ones.

Does any one still make the old fashioned chains made for single gear bike that would use a Archer-Sturmy????

 

[amberwolf]

But i did find amberwolf's blog. not that I found any cargo bikes on it.

Really? That's almost the only kind of bike I have, (only the Nishik-E and no-longer-extant Velcro Eclipse don't qualify) so you must've found somebody else's stuff.

Hard to believe since there are links directly to two of them right there in my signature, and the trike is easy enough to find. Another link in my sig goes to one of the versions of a bike build I haven't got very far with yet, and that thread itself links to it's older never-done version.

 

[amberwolf]

Does any one still make the old fashioned chains made for single gear bike that would use a Archer-Sturmy????

I dunno about that brand, but Sturmey-Archer hubs (like the old 3-speed IGH's I have here) use simple single-speed chain you can buy at any bike shop, or find on any BMX bike, fixie bike, order online, etc.

They're not old-fashioned, and are very common.

There's some discussion on single-speed chains in various threads on the forum but it may take some time to find them.

 

[heliolatrix]

the bikes on your blog didn't look like the kind of thing that can deal with two children. But now that i think about it , they could be in your trailer.

the kind of chain I want is the old kind before flexibility was needed for sprocket shifting. that has more bushings and lasts longer.

We did some math and decided that the Sturmy- Archer hub can't possibly be used to drive the rear wheel.

In the pictures of the mid drive above, most of the torque goes directly to the rear wheel. And only a small amount goes through the crank set gears.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I am of the opinion that:...if you double the speed of the mid-mount 3-speed, you halve the loads on each individual tooth-mesh inside the IGH. By that I mean to...install a 2:1 reduction so that the IGH spins twice for every single wheel rotation.

 

[amberwolf]

the bikes on your blog didn't look like the kind of thing that can deal with two children.

Ah, well, that's not what you said--you said you didn't see any "cargo bikes".

the kind of chain I want is the old kind before flexibility was needed for sprocket shifting. that has more bushings and lasts longer.

I guess I can't help you with that any more than I already tried to. Sorry.

It sounds like all of my knowledge is inappropriate to what you want to do, so I'll leave you to the others assisting you.