Proper Kill Switch

yes, the switch does not have to be located on the BMS. you can run the wires to the switch from the BMS and locate the switch in a convenient location. it may be harder than it seems too if the BMS has heat sink shields covering it too. no way to know until we can see the BMS.

it can be as simple as putting the switch in the sense wire that delivers the circuit current to the BMS.
 
vwhammer said:
Is it as simple as adding a switch to the BMS?

The BMS is not the place for it, because of they way they are designed. The ones I have seen simply manage charging, balancing cells and discharging the battery. They don't control the power using a control signal, rather they automatically sense charging voltage, cell voltage and current, and do controlled discharges.

However the motor controller should be able to turn power off, using the brake switch or key switch signal inputs. Sounds great, assuming the controller never fails, which of course it can. The kill switch is a backup.

The original poster wanted a way to disconnect power absolutely, separately from the controller. Frankly a relay contactor is probably the least expensive device for it. It seems archaic to depend on an old fashioned relay, but there are reasons to do so. The electronic shutoff should work, but if it fails, very bad things can happen and a backup kill switch is a wise investment.

Top of the head, there are a couple of arguments for it. First, for safety and theft prevention these bikes should have a keyed on off switch. Second, if the controller fails, you need a kill switch to prevent motor runaway.

In the first case, thieves, children, drunks, and idiots can't seem to keep their hands off electric bikes. So it is prudent to have a key lock as the master switch for power, as you would for a car or a gun. This key lock would logically control the contactor to apply power to the controller and motor. I think the original poster meant an additional kill switch like those found on industrial equipment, typically a big red stop button. Can't hurt to have one. Cars don't, though, probably because the makers don't want to suggest their car might need one. I think they are required on larger industrial machines though.

In the second case, electronics do fail. Bicycles are in a very unfriendly environment for electronics. Our controllers, motors and batteries are exposed to sun, rain, overheating and vibration, all of which can cause electronic gadgets to fail. Because all controllers use NMOS FETs as power switches, which most often fail shorted, the electronic off signals to the controller may do absolutely nothing. Lithium batteries do not like shorts, motors would run full speed -- you get the picture.

Of course a fuse or breaker should prevent fires and motor runaway. But still if all else fails, it's prudent to have a reliable way to shut everything down. Many's the time I have smelled insulation burning before the fuse blew. Time to turn off the key switch, or hit the kill switch.
 
No it's not always simple, and for those unfamiliar it's bad advice. Your controller may have a second red wire, usually a smaller one that is there for a switch. Pictures and model numbers help. I have a Lyen 48V controller and it has a wire form with installation. Another reason upgrade controllers are desirable.
 
slowhands does not know what he is talking about:


"The BMS is not the place for it, because of they way they are designed. The ones I have seen simply manage charging, balancing cells and discharging the battery. They don't control the power using a control signal, rather they automatically sense charging voltage, cell voltage and current, and do controlled discharges. "

nothing could be farther from the truth. they do control the battery and they will turn it off in the event of a short circuit. the BMS is the best place to turn off the battery. period.
 
I used these switch types, one already wired, on a controller wired for a switch and added a blade fuse from Powerwerx. They had the only 18AWG wired fuse I could find. Most were 10AWG.
 

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do not use those fuse holders. they are a fire hazard and will melt down in no time. if you have to use a fuse, solder the tabs of the fuse to a copper conductor and use it inline.
 
dnmun said:
slowhands does not know what he is talking about:


"The BMS is not the place for it, because of they way they are designed. The ones I have seen simply manage charging, balancing cells and discharging the battery. They don't control the power using a control signal, rather they automatically sense charging voltage, cell voltage and current, and do controlled discharges. "

nothing could be farther from the truth. they do control the battery and they will turn it off in the event of a short circuit. the BMS is the best place to turn off the battery. period.

My friend, you have great faith in the immortality of electronics. I don't.

The kill switch is there for when the BMS or controller or motor or something else fails and nothing else will kill power. There are plenty of causes for failed electronics in bicycles, including bad connectors, moisture exposure, overheating, corrosion, vibration, crashes, fires and more. You are free to ignore those risks. You may prefer to think they don't exist, but of course they do. So feel free to build as you wish, but I get peace of mind from having a kill switch in addition to any electronic shutoff functions.
 
dnmun said:
slowhands does not know what he is talking about:


"The BMS is not the place for it, because of they way they are designed. The ones I have seen simply manage charging, balancing cells and discharging the battery. They don't control the power using a control signal, rather they automatically sense charging voltage, cell voltage and current, and do controlled discharges. "

nothing could be farther from the truth. they do control the battery and they will turn it off in the event of a short circuit. the BMS is the best place to turn off the battery. period.
I completely agree. The main purpose of the BMS is to isolate the cell-pack when condiions dictate. I have switches on just about all my BMSs. They're designed into the BMSs, which each have a header on the pcb for the switch. Nearly all OEM electric bikes use such a system. You only need a contactor if you don't have a BMS.
 
dnmun said:
do not use those fuse holders. they are a fire hazard and will melt down in no time. if you have to use a fuse, solder the tabs of the fuse to a copper conductor and use it inline.
This is the ignition wire. Why I love this place. I can always find two experts with completely opposing ideas...
 
vwhammer said:
This is the one I bought.

http://lunacycle.com/batteries/48v-samsung-18650-battery-pack-10ah/

I'm looking at the same battery. I ordered one of these to use as a kill switch


One of these came with another kit i have. It connects to a couple red wires on the controller and fits on the handlebar.
 
Well I tore a perfectly good battery apart and there is definitely not a switch of any sort on the BMS nor would I know where to place one if that was a possibility.
Here are some pics of the BMS.


 
There's two red wires soldered where the pcb is marked SW1 (switch number 1). Where do they go? There's also a bridge at the other end that's marked SW3 (switch number 3) that's another candidate.
 
The two red wires at SW1 go to a temp switch that is epoxied to the cells.
I think I could safely add a switch there to trick the BMS into over temp mode and still have the temp switch active.

How do I go about testing this switch.
Can I plug a resistor into the battery output and simply short across switch points (either SW1 or SW2) while monitoring the current and/or voltage?

Is this a safe thing to do?
What size resistor might I use?
Naturally I don't want to blow this thing up in my face.

I know I seem to have a lot of questions but this is one of the last things holding me up from getting all of this together the way I would like.
 
Cut or lift one of the wires. If the BMS switches off, then you can put your switch there. Whether it will work depends on what type of temperature sensor it is. I would say that there's a high probability that it will work, especially as it's marked "SW1", which implies a switch function. No harm will come by testing it or putting a switch on one of those wires.
 
The thermo switch appears to be a 60C switch but I need to determine whether it is normally open or normally closed.
A quick continuity check should tell me whether I can just put the switch in one of the wires for the thermo switch or if I have to wire the switch to jump the two contact points on the board.

I still need a simple way to simulate a load on the battery so I can actually make sure the switch works before I seal the battery back up.
 
I actually have a 48v fan here. Can i simply plug that into the battery and hit my switch to see if it stops running?

Maybe i am overthinkig this stuff
 
Ok just checked the thermo switch and, as I suspected, it is normally closed.
So if i simply put a switch in one of the lines to open the circuit current should cease to flow.
Does this sound like a legit solution to my problem?
 
Yes.
 
I suggested that in post #39.

You're making it much more difficult than it is, and you're risking damage by connecting a fan to a sensor.

You stick your voltmeter on the battery output teminals. The voltage should be 48v or more. Cut or lift one of the wires to SW1 and the voltage on the output teminals will drop if the BMS switches off. Note that it won't necessarily go to zero, depending on the impedence of your voltmeter.
 
Ok thanks. I already sorted that part out and ordered a nice push button power switch that should be here friday.
It should mount nicely on the side of my battery bag.
Hell I may be riding this thing before Halloween.
 
It really is simple. You only need a special high power switch or contactor if your battery doesn't have a BMS.
 
I finally got my bike on the road and I wanted to up date this thread about my switch.

So essentially I just put a switch in one of the lines that runs between a thermo switch mounted on the battery and the BMS.

In theory this should have worked.

However if I hit the switch to turn it off it will not come back on unless I turn it on and connect then disconnect it from the charger.
Not real sure what happened between when I tested it and it worked and when I finalized all the connections on the bike and tried to use it.

Anyway I sort of bailed on it since my battery from luna cycle has a resistor in the plug to keep it from sparking when I plug it in.

It would be nice to have a proper kill switch but i can live without it for now.
 
vwhammer said:
By elegant I mean not just a simple high VDC, high current breaker or big clunky switch.

So, by "elegant", you mean a last ditch emergency system that has some complexity, so that it can fail to work when you need it?

A proper kill switch, in my mind, physically opens the battery leads with the very same big red button you push when you want that to happen. Go into any machine shop and look around. Proper kill switches are effective, not subtle.
 
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