Puma/Infineon bike review

[Fishmasterdan]

So I finally got my Eagle tree hooked up. I am going to get a couple of temp probes for the eagle tree so I can monitor heat.

Hard data.
2100 watts. I have yet to get the motor over 90f. I rode 6 miles at full throttle and averaged 30 mph and used 3.5 ah 182WH

 

[dnmun]

how hot did the controller get this time? what did knuckles have to do to the old one? replace the output FETs?

where do you measure the motor temp?

 

[Fishmasterdan]

how hot did the controller get this time? what did knuckles have to do to the old one? replace the output FETs?

where do you measure the motor temp?

Controller gets luke warm (I moved it out to get a little wind, but kept it concealed under the pannier side).

The old one was junked.Knuckles said I ruined it by pushing to much current through it (all the fets were burned up). I think it was an internal short but I am not an expert, and took knuckles word for it. I purchased a new one,knuckles gave me a 25 dollar credit I think or maybe 15 cant remember for sure.

Motor temp is a guess I have a temp gun but I cant get close enough to the windings to get an accurate read so I add 10f to the case. I am going to get one of the eagle tree micro temp gauges and put it in the motor.

I have a 30 amp fuse installed but consistantly see 40 plus amps on the watt meter so I am not sure how good the automotive fuse is.

 

[Fishmasterdan]

Collected some more data today.

7.8 AH out of a 6 pack of Milwaukee V28 batteries wired up 3p2s. I think I like the Eaglee tree better than the CA for the charting software.
This ride 12 Miles used 7.8 A.H (Got lazy at the end as the chart shows) 800' of elevation change according to mapmyride.com (Dont really trust that thing). 2000 plus watts is nothing for the Puma motor.I need to bump the voltage up some more to get more watts out of the system.
Soon I want to get the GPS for the eaglee tree so I can chart speeds with watts and get a real idea how fast 750 watts really is (federal law regulations).



If anyone is intrested in playing with the Data you can D/L the software from eagleetree.com and I will email you a couple of rides.

 

[dnmun]

that was real nice of knuckles to give you a credit. generous in fact.

basically you did short it out, through the FETs. that is why they cooked.

most fuses are rated at a specific current, but you have to exceed the current for a length of time or by a specific percentage to blow it.

there are also instant blow fuses, and slo blo. the type you have will protect if you short out your wiring or the controller wires.

 

[Fishmasterdan]

Update:
Broken spokes, had new ones installed 12g.

Melted phase wires from getting too hot, when the insulation melted the wires shorted and blew the last knuckles ESC Replaced the wires with #14 and #22 TFPE wire from http://www.mcmaster.com/# and added a temp sensor in the motor (I highly recomend this upgrade. I dont think I can ride a bike again without a temp sensor).

Last thing (all these break down were back to back). Something let go between the freewheel and the inner one way bearing.

It let go during a data recording session so I have documentaion that I was not abusing the motor (this time )

Temp A being MOTOR

Temp B being ESC/SPEED CONTROL

 

[Fishmasterdan]

On to the broken mechanical stuff.

So when I pedal it just slips you dont go anywhere.
When you apply power it just slips.

I striped the motor completely down to find the problem between the one way bearing and the free wheel. I cant get the free wheel off becuase the inner race just spins. Any body have any idea of how to get the freewheel off ?? Anybody have a case laying around so I can hack everything apart with a grinder ???

MARK I NEED HELP (or anyone else that can help). I even took it to a Boeing engineer and had him study it but we cant figure out how to take it apart.


On a positive side, the temp sensor's in the esc and motor should be mandatory in any ebikers gadget upgrades. I find to be a better tool than watts. I dont care if I push 5kw through as long as the temp stays down. I have the temp gauges position 1/2 away from motor windings and 1/4" away from the fets in the esc.

 

[fechter]

I think that's going to be hard to fix.

You might try holding the inside of the tube that the big one way bearing is attached to with a thing called a nipple remover (sounds painful). It's a sort of internal pipe wrench that can grab the inside of a pipe. If you can keep it from spinning with that, you might be able to get the freewheel off.

 

[Fishmasterdan]

FYI dont type nipple removal into google. I will never be the same

 

[dogman dan]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I agree totally about temp sensors. If nothing else, put a sensor on the axle stub, and figure the temps inside are 30F higher that the indicated temp. Two smoked motors in one year has taught me it can happen faster than you think when something inside goes wrong. With no sensors you ride blissfully along, not knowing till the stink hits you.

 

[Reid Welch]

It was and is a great thread.

I need to start a new topic in a different place: the toxic topic panel.
I am in the mood to make big, bad waves.

OTOH, there is nothing defective about your thread nor your build.
I just need to raise certain provocative questions, elsewhere.

Thank you, again, for a fine build-review thread!

Sincerely,


Reid.

 

[Fishmasterdan]

Well I have good news. I contacted Mark from Team hybrid about how to get the motor apart and he offered me a new one for free.. whoo hoo He said it was one of his last ones. I feel pretty lucky. Thanks Mark.

Also I got ahold of Keywin to purchase a new ESC (I told him I shorted the phase wires) and he offered to fix it. I am going to order a spare and also.

I will continue to try and get the old motor apart!!!!

 

[shinyballs]

Thank you for this very helpful review. Do you mind telling what temp sensor you use and what is the safe operating temperature for this motor?

 

[Fishmasterdan]

I cant tell you the safe operating temp because I dont know what was used to glue the magnets in or what grade the magnets are, but I can say that to be safe you want to stay below 190f/200f. If I see 170/180 I would be stoping and waiting for things to cool down.

Temp sensors are part of an eagle tree system. http://www.eagletreesystems.com/

You need the E logger http://www.eagletreesystems.com/MicroPower/4.htm
LCD display http://www.eagletreesystems.com/MicroPower/9.htm
micro temp sensor http://www.eagletreesystems.com/MicroPower/6.htm

 

[Fishmasterdan]

Well the super powered boieng Engineer figured out a way to get the free wheel off. I dont have any good pictures of that. What we did was cut some grooves in a 22mm stanley socket (that size fit perfectly into the race) and epoxied it into the race. When it was good and dry we were able to connect a ratchet to the socket and unscrew the freewheel from the back side.

That reveled the real issues.

The case cracked.

Here is a picture of the freewheel attached to the one way bearing.

And just for reference this is what the free wheel is part of.

It is obvious this motor was not meant of hard off road use (especially for a fat guy like myself), but the torque is amazing. A press fit into a piece of aluminum cant work for any kind of impact loads.
We have came up with a robust solution to make this motor an offroad machine. I am going to a machine shop today to see if are idea is possible.

 

[tifalou]

Hi,
Do someone know how the original Puma compare to this one ? http://www.das-elektrorad.de/umbausatz.htm (Puma-Ezee)
It has not the same casing, and the 57 km/h claimed seem optimistic to me.
I wrote an e-mail to Teamhybrid about the difference between this one and their Puma, but got no reply.
I wonder if it worths the extra cost ($ 500 + rim, spokes and lacing, about $ 700 total, compared to a Nine Continent that we can get in Europ for about $ 300.

 

[fechter]

It is obvious this motor was not meant of hard off road use (especially for a fat guy like myself), but the torque is amazing. A press fit into a piece of aluminum cant work for any kind of impact loads.
We have came up with a robust solution to make this motor an offroad machine. I am going to a machine shop today to see if are idea is possible.

Seems like they could have made the flange around the press fit a bit thicker (the part that cracked). Looks like they were just trying to save some aluminum.

You could possibly machine a new (steel) piece that fits in there that has a large flange that can be bolted to the outside of the case. If the bolt pattern was outside of the one-way bearing, it looks like there would be clearance for the nuts. The other side could have flat head screws that are flush. Liberal amounts of epoxy when bolting it up won't hurt.

 

[Fishmasterdan]

Hi,
Do someone know how the original Puma compare to this one ? http://www.das-elektrorad.de/umbausatz.htm (Puma-Ezee)
It has not the same casing, and the 57 km/h claimed seem optimistic to me.
I wrote an e-mail to Teamhybrid about the difference between this one and their Puma, but got no reply.
I wonder if it worths the extra cost ($ 500 + rim, spokes and lacing, about $ 700 total, compared to a Nine Continent that we can get in Europ for about $ 300.

I cant help you with this one. Sorry

Seems like they could have made the flange around the press fit a bit thicker (the part that cracked). Looks like they were just trying to save some aluminum.

You could possibly machine a new (steel) piece that fits in there that has a large flange that can be bolted to the outside of the case. If the bolt pattern was outside of the one-way bearing, it looks like there would be clearance for the nuts. The other side could have flat head screws that are flush. Liberal amounts of epoxy when bolting it up won't hurt.

Thats the Plan (I cant believe you figured that out from the pictures good job..) My local machine shop quoted me 100$.

So I am going to have the case machined out to the size of the one way bearing so It can be installed from the outside and have the steel plate bigger. Than epoxy and rivet to finish it to the case. This should then become the best offroad motor there is for a hub motor!!! I dont want to push my bike from 20 miles back in the woods.