Purchasing the correct dd Hub quesions

[PeteB]

I don't want to bring bad news to the party, but the Crystalyte 53XX series motor is almost impossible to use effectively in a rear wheel format. The right side spoke bracing angle is nil; that's why I got a front 5305 as my first hub motor.

I would only use that motor in combination with a rim that has a lot of spoke hole offset, like the Surly Rabbit Hole. Otherwise you'll have to dish the wheel over to one side just to make it strong enough to ride on.

The motor I purchased is new laced on a rim.What is this Dish that you speak of?..Mounting the wheel more to one side? how would that make it stronger?

Hey Chalo.....You told me about a problem, Well sort of..You Don't want to answer my question?

Not to worry..I got this...

For any new guys that come across this post maybe via a google search...NOT to worry.. No bad news at the party.Just bad advise..There are MANY people here alone running a 5x rear hub successfully and Even on a Townie and if you come around some posting talking about dish here is your answer..

Sheldon Brown wroteish
A bicycle wheel should have the rim centered directly in line with the frame. The fork ends are symmetrical with respect to the frame, and the hub axle locknuts (or equivalent surfaces) press against the insides of the dropouts.

Wheels should be built so that the rim is centered exactly between the axle ends on the hub. In the case of rear wheels, the spokes attach to flanges which are not symmetrical...the right flange is usually closer to the centerline than the left flange, to make room for the sprocket(s).

When rear wheels are built properly, the spokes on the right side are made tighter than those on the left side. This pulls the rim to the right, so that it is centered with respect to the axle (and to the frame.) Viewed edgewise, a rear wheel built this way resembles a dish, or bowl, since the left spokes form a broad cone, while the right spokes are nearly flat.

By extension, the term "dish" is used as a general synonym for accurate centering, even in the case of symmetrical wheels.

See also my Wheelbuilding article

 

[Chalo]

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Yes, "dishing" is what we call it when you tighten or loosen all the spokes on one side of the wheel in order to move the rim to one side or the other relative to the axle.

The problem with the rear X5304 is that the distance between the flanges is small but the offset of those flanges from center is pretty large. So to get the rim to run on center, the left side spokes must be left almost slack, and the tight ones on the right side have almost no mechanical advantage with which to stabilize the wheel. The result is an unreliable wheel that goes out of true easily, suffers self-loosening spokes, and collapses with a relatively small side load.

If you use a rim like the Surly Rabbit Hole that allows you to lace all the spokes over to one side of the rim, then the offset in the rim partially compensates for the offset hub flanges, and you buy back some right side bracing angle and left side spoke tension. There are other rims that feature off-center drilling, but most of them are lightweight race type rims that are narrow and offer only 4-6mm of hole offset. Only Surly offers offset drilling on big strong rims, as far as I know.

 

[PeteB]

I see..But what if you were to purchase a wheel already assembled like this?View attachment 1

 

[Chalo]

Do you see how the spoke flanges on that hub are offset to the right, to help the bracing angle? The X5304 isn't like that. Its flanges are symmetrical on the hub shell, so the offset axle puts them waaay over to one side.

 

[dnmun]

you have to dish the wheel to get it centered. you can google sheldon brown for an education in wheel building.

 

[Chalo]

The thing about the X5 rear hub is that it doesn't allow correct dish with a normal non-offset rim unless you reduce left side spoke tension, and right side bracing angle, to near zero. It doesn't matter how good you are at wheelbuilding. The only way to use an X5 rear hub in a wheel that will last is to use an offset rim, or else run the rim to the left of center in the bike frame.

 

[dogman dan]

I know better than to compare my bike mechanics knowledge against Chalo's.

But I do know that my Crystalyte rear 5304 has been running fine for a year on my longtail. The bike only weighs 160 pounds, with battery and no cargo or rider. So not like it's getting no weight on it. I ride, with suspension, off curbs at 30 mph, or down washboard dirt roads.

Tuned right, I only needed to tighten a handful of spokes once in a year of riding. MLT sent it to me in good shape, but I have no idea what spokes were used. Mine's the later, disk ready version. Perhaps the earlier version had a lot more dish. Mine is not tuned that slack on one side.

I won't say 5304 spokes are never a problem, I've seen plenty of others write about it. Seen the broken flanges. But I won't say it's an impossible rear motor. Mine has been fine.

 

[PeteB]

Do you see how the spoke flanges on that hub are offset to the right, to help the bracing angle? The X5304 isn't like that. Its flanges are symmetrical on the hub shell, so the offset axle puts them waaay over to one side.

That is a 5304...In the first pic,As a matter of fact that is the wheel hub combo I purchased. The Cruiser. So what your saying that if it shows up here laced centered I will have to dish it or off set the wheel to the left...Is that to compensate for the gear set/freewheel? Could I just run a 11t single freewheel?

 

[PeteB]

The thing about the X5 rear hub is that it doesn't allow correct dish with a normal non-offset rim unless you reduce left side spoke tension, and right side bracing angle, to near zero. It doesn't matter how good you are at wheelbuilding. The only way to use an X5 rear hub in a wheel that will last is to use an offset rim, or else run the rim to the left of center in the bike frame.

O.K. I called them and got an answer...The original clyte X5304 in silver were centered flanges...The Black gen1's were the change over and ALL phoenix rear hubs had offset flanges..I had him pull my wheel out of the box to look at it.It WAS going out today. :? And he said that it is laced with 12 ga. spokes..This should clear up any confusion although I don't think that the x5's are all that popular anymore with the hs ht out now..Thank's Chalo for bringing this to my attention..You sure do know your stuff.

 

[PeteB]

I know better than to compare my bike mechanics knowledge against Chalo's.

But I do know that my Crystalyte rear 5304 has been running fine for a year on my longtail. The bike only weighs 160 pounds, with battery and no cargo or rider. So not like it's getting no weight on it. I ride, with suspension, off curbs at 30 mph, or down washboard dirt roads.

Tuned right, I only needed to tighten a handful of spokes once in a year of riding. MLT sent it to me in good shape, but I have no idea what spokes were used. Mine's the later, disk ready version. Perhaps the earlier version had a lot more dish. Mine is not tuned that slack on one side.

I won't say 5304 spokes are never a problem, I've seen plenty of others write about it. Seen the broken flanges. But I won't say it's an impossible rear motor. Mine has been fine.

Hey Dogman, Do you know what gauge your spokes are? I would guess it has the offset flanges if it has a disc brake mount.

 

[alsmith]

....... I don't think that the x5's are all that popular anymore ........

really? Any up for sale aren't up for long.

 

[PeteB]

....... I don't think that the x5's are all that popular anymore ........

really? Any up for sale aren't up for long.

Obviously they sell but my point was the popularity of this topic of a discontinued hub motor.

 

[mlt34]

I know better than to compare my bike mechanics knowledge against Chalo's.

But I do know that my Crystalyte rear 5304 has been running fine for a year on my longtail. The bike only weighs 160 pounds, with battery and no cargo or rider. So not like it's getting no weight on it. I ride, with suspension, off curbs at 30 mph, or down washboard dirt roads.

Tuned right, I only needed to tighten a handful of spokes once in a year of riding. MLT sent it to me in good shape, but I have no idea what spokes were used. Mine's the later, disk ready version. Perhaps the earlier version had a lot more dish. Mine is not tuned that slack on one side.

I won't say 5304 spokes are never a problem, I've seen plenty of others write about it. Seen the broken flanges. But I won't say it's an impossible rear motor. Mine has been fine.

That hub had one broken spoke after about a year of use, after which I relaced it with sapim stainless spokes from Holmes Hobbies. The guys at electric rider told me those were better spokes than it came with originally. I'm glad to hear my relacing job is holding up decently

 

[Chalo]

Do you see how the spoke flanges on that hub are offset to the right, to help the bracing angle? The X5304 isn't like that. Its flanges are symmetrical on the hub shell, so the offset axle puts them waaay over to one side.

That is a 5304...In the first pic,As a matter of fact that is the wheel hub combo I purchased.

It looks like Crystalyte revised that hub the same way they changed their other rear hub versions, by moving both flanges to the right side. So it's workable. Good for them for correcting a problem, and good for you that they did. (I on the other hand should stay more up to date before I issue warnings.)

If you lace your own wheel, put all the spokes on the right sides of their flanges (towards the freewheel). That way you get a valuable few millimeters of spoke offset in the correct direction.

 

[dogman dan]

8)

Ya know, I thought those just looked like better spokes on that 5304 of mine than stock clyte junk spokes. No wonder they never stretch out more.

If you think you got a new 5304 from electric rider, you are wrong. They stopped making them. They sell the newer clyte motors, call them equivalent to a 5304, but they are not. Not the same magnet and rotor width.

But it should do what you need anyway. It's a good motor and has no excessive dish in the wheel.

 

[PeteB]

8)

Ya know, I thought those just looked like better spokes on that 5304 of mine than stock clyte junk spokes. No wonder they never stretch out more.

If you think you got a new 5304 from electric rider, you are wrong. They stopped making them. They sell the newer clyte motors, call them equivalent to a 5304, but they are not. Not the same magnet and rotor width.

But it should do what you need anyway. It's a good motor and has no excessive dish in the wheel.

NO...It is a Phoenix cruiser with no rear disc mount.. It is a crystalyte x5304 It is a new but an old stock motor. My guess is that it surfaced after the move from KS. He said he can't believe it has been around this long..

It is the same motor that is in the pics I posted.The phoenix II motors are clyte Hs/Ht.

 

[dogman dan]

Ok, then it is a real 5304. And it is the old design that I think has some dish in the spokes.

There has been some confusion when ER used the same names for the new model Clyte motors.

 

[PeteB]

Ok, then it is a real 5304. And it is the old design that I think has some dish in the spokes.[/quote

That's not what Mark at E.R says..He laces the wheels.He says he has no centering problems and does not have to dish the wheel on that hub.By the way the spokes are From Holmes Hobby now and which are 12 gauge sipam spokes..

So to be clear My motor is a rear X5304 Electric rider cruiser with no disc mount with a black crystalyte double wall rim and black sapim spokes to match my black townie 21 custom.

The reason I did not want a front hub motor(I had a chance to buy a Ed Lyens front 9c test wheel with no front disc mount) is because my forks are cheap RST CT-COM 2 aluminum suspension that I can mount a disc to and I did not want the hassle of converting a rear disc on a townie anyways.

I plan to mount an 18 fet controller on the rack and put my batteries in a Velcro triangle frame bag.Made from black sunbrella like my boat bimini top from my canvas guy.

I really like my townie.I just want to be able to ride my townie quickly out of Townie.

 

[PeteB]

The fed ex man came today!



He He delivered this..

 

[PeteB]

Ok, then it is a real 5304. And it is the old design that I think has some dish in the spokes.

There has been some confusion when ER used the same names for the new model Clyte motors.

NO DISH AND IT SITS PERFECTLY CENTER...