Q100H And Q128H Upgrades For Durability

[vwhammer]

Here are a few specs on the parts I will be running on my 2WD set up.

Rear:
Q128H hub motor (800w) 36v 201rpm wind
S12S 500w controller (website rates it at 25amp max but the sticker on the controller says 30a +-1
S-LCD3 Display

Front:
Q100H hub motor (350w) 36v 201rpm wind
Elifebike QQ-500-9M 500w controller rated at 19amp
No display just throttle.

Battery:
Luna Cycles 48v 10ah li-ion
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/48v-samsung-18650-battery-pack-10ah/

I am not building this bike for crazy speed but I want it to be a durable climber and grocery getter (all on road of course)

I was thinking about upgrading the phase wires and getting them set up for oil cooling just to help the tiny motors anyway I can to avoid failures.

Am I being unreasonable to assume these motors will last at moderate power levels even if it is only short bursts and I upgrade a couple things?

I understand the clutch and gears are a possible week point but beyond that are the other upgrade even worth my time?

It seems that overheating them would be the greatest factor to failure of any of the parts so if I can keep temps down that should greatly increase the durability at reasonable power levels. Correct?

Also does anyone have any tips on getting these motors open before I go pounding away at them?
I read it on here somewhere and now I can't find it.

 

[motomech]

They don't need any mod's at those power levels.
If you pull those wires out, you will reget it. Besides, manufacturers use the exact same wires on larger motors, they are not a restriction.
Q-series motors do not have external oil seals and if you put oil inside, it will slowly ooze out forever. And again, these motors are not prone to over-heating.
I have stock Cute motors that are several years old with 1000's of miles on them, so save your money, there will be other, non motor related things to spend it on.
Or, if you are a serious worrier, buy a pair of spare motors.

My reservations about your plan are;
The 19A controller on the frt. The rear motor will make the frt. wheel light and it is going to want to spin.
The 17A version would be better.

And;
The 201 motor speeds
A pair of 260's would climb any hill you will encounter on-roaD and you will miss the few mph's extra they would provide.
Also, a 260 motor speed on the frt. would be less prone to spin-out.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Here are a few specs on the parts I will be running on my 2WD set up.

Rear:
Q128H hub motor (800w) 36v 201rpm wind
S12S 500w controller (website rates it at 25amp max but the sticker on the controller says 30a +-1
S-LCD3 Display

Front:
Q100H hub motor (350w) 36v 201rpm wind
Elifebike QQ-500-9M 500w controller rated at 19amp
No display just throttle.

Battery:
Luna Cycles 48v 10ah li-ion
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/48v-samsung-18650-battery-pack-10ah/

I am not building this bike for crazy speed but I want it to be a durable climber and grocery getter (all on road of course)

I was thinking about upgrading the phase wires and getting them set up for oil cooling just to help the tiny motors anyway I can to avoid failures.

Am I being unreasonable to assume these motors will last at moderate power levels even if it is only short bursts and I upgrade a couple things?

I understand the clutch and gears are a possible week point but beyond that are the other upgrade even worth my time?

It seems that overheating them would be the greatest factor to failure of any of the parts so if I can keep temps down that should greatly increase the durability at reasonable power levels. Correct?

Also does anyone have any tips on getting these motors open before I go pounding away at them?
I read it on here somewhere and now I can't find it.

Why are you trying for this dual motor configuration? Have you considered a single 1000w direct drive hub motor? I think you'd be happier with that. Venting a motor is said to increase the motors capacity by around 3 times, pretty stellar in my opinion. http://www.hallomotor.com/48v-350w-gearless-mini-hub-motor-for-electric-bike-brushless-hub-motor-for-rear-wheel.html Imagine venting this motor or something like it. It'd fit the bill, weigh less than your Q100h/Q128 combo, and you'd only have to deal with one controller, zero gears or clutches, and no worries about oil leaking (You can modify the motor in ways to help with oil leaking, but it's still likely to be at least a minor issue). I guess it's all pros and cons to weigh. What I am hoping to point out is that with 5kg of motor you aren't really gaining much if anything using these two geared hub motors with oil cooling. A little more weight and you could use a stock direct drive hub motor or with, in my opinion, a slightly (probably more than slightly) more pleasant modification you could use a lighter total weight hub motor and have far less to worry you. I'd just go with the heavier direct drive hub motor and vent it, wild amounts of power capacity there, never worry about over heating a motor. Maybe pair that with a nice field oriented control controller and it'll be like floating on a cloud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNC5HpzHhFY This video illustrates the difference in noise levels between a trapazoidally drive drive direct drive hub motor and a sinusoidally drive direct drive hub motor. Some folks don't care much about motor noise, but I do.

If you are aiming for an extreme degree of visual stealth though, a single Q100h is the way to go. The size and weight of a single Q100h hub motor is fantastic for what it is. Oil cooling a Q100h is a knock out in terms of power capacity for that motor, really great. The clutch is an issue though and the only real solution I see is to weld it locked. I am trying to get a locked version of the clutch from someone for a Q100h, we will see how that turns out. The clutch wears and wears and eventually starts to slip, might take a while for yours, but it's an issue for certain. I know some people love the idea of pedaling more than using the motor, but using PAS with a very low level of assist eliminates any cogging effect and consumes very little power. I also like the idea of using regenerative braking in a Q100h, which is enabled with the right controller and a locked clutch. I don't think you need to upgrade the phase wires, but you might keep the wires shorter if possible. If you were looking to run far more than 500w through a Q100h, I'd say consider thicker wires, like maybe 1500w.

I've read about various techniques for opening a Q100h, my method involves a few simple tools http://imgur.com/IeceXcJ. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=Universal%20Adjustable%20Pin%20Wrench&linkCode=ur2&tag=xbnijgbr-20&url=search-alias%3Daps&linkId=XH546AZHDRBSQLD2 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=Strap%20Wrench&linkCode=ur2&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AStrap%20Wrench&tag=xbnijgbr-20&url=search-alias%3Daps&linkId=7YCGXL2YCYK6Y5ZL Turn each in opposite directions and she comes right open. I tried a method mentioned by d8veh where he suggests taking one of the 3 bolts that keep the side of the motor on, putting the bolt in (sort of slanted, not screwed in) one of the holes at an angle and tapping/hitting the head of said bolt with a hammer but I wasn't able to get that to work. I hkad the pin tool sitting around because I frocking love angle grinders and I found the strap thing at a local hardware store.

 

[vwhammer]

They don't need any mod's at those power levels.
If you pull those wires out, you will reget it. Besides, manufacturers use the exact same wires on larger motors, they are not a restriction.
Q-series motors do not have external oil seals and if you put oil inside, it will slowly ooze out forever. And again, these motors are not prone to over-heating.
I have stock Cute motors that are several years old with 1000's of miles on them, so save your money, there will be other, non motor related things to spend it on.
Or, if you are a serious worrier, buy a pair of spare motors.

My reservations about your plan are;
The 19A controller on the frt. The rear motor will make the frt. wheel light and it is going to want to spin.
The 17A version would be better.

And;
The 201 motor speeds
A pair of 260's would climb any hill you will encounter on-roaD and you will miss the few mph's extra they would provide.
Also, a 260 motor speed on the frt. would be less prone to spin-out.

Would you suggest at least changing the connectors?

I swear when I bought the controller for the front all I could find was a 14a and a 19a so I went with the higher.
However, shortly after the 19a purchase, I noticed the 17a unit.
With that said though we are only talking about less than 100w difference in total power.
I would not think that would be a huge deal but I guess if it is on the edge of spinning then it could be.
Time will tell

I would have loved the 260rpm version of these motors but all I could find was a 201 or 328
I also considered running two different speed motors and I might after riding a bit and seeing what each motor is capable of.
I like the idea of having one for take off and climbing and one that will get me moving about 30mph so I can keep up with traffic in town.
I do however think that 30mph on a rigid bike could get scary on our rough roads.

Perhaps I will just leave it all alone for now and see how it works.
I am not real keen on buying a bunch of spare parts just in case something fails.
I would rather pinpoint the failure and maybe work on methods to prevent it from happening in the first place.

 

[d8veh]

I have a lot of reservations about that battery. I never heard of a 4 parallel 18650 battery that can do 50 amps continuous. All the other Samsung ones are 20A continuous, and that's stretching it a bit. Also, even just using the rear motor at 20 amps, it'll only last about 25 minutes or less. Both motors on full power will probably drain it on one good hill. How far do you want to go?

 

[vwhammer]

Yeah I have my doubts about that claim as well but I don't intend to do 50 amps continuous so I didn't dwell on it much.
However, I had hoped to go about 20 miles with pedaling and I would be pretty disappointed if I only get half of that.
I did also intend to get another duplicate of this battery to double my range but if this one will only do 10 miles then I may bail and get a different battery altogether.

What I am having trouble understanding is that all info I could come across suggested that a 10ah battery should be able to do nearly 20 miles with moderate pedaling.
Now this is turning out to not be true?

 

[quuxman]

Just did a ride with my partner on our new-ish Q100H 201 RPM build with 10Ah 36V battery. We got 25 miles with 2900 feet of climbing before the battery died. Without so much climbing, naturally it'd go a lot farther with the same amount of pedaling. I'm still in the process of range testing it, so can't really tell you exactly how far, but 20 miles should be no problem with 1 motor (with both those motors running you'll burn more than twice the power though). My original build with 500W Mac and 48V 9Ah has way more power, has never heated up significantly like the Q100H, and seems to be more efficient too with a much longer range (50-100%?). I would definitely recommend it over the Q100H unless you're _really_ concerned with weight.

I've ridden quite a few custom builds at this point, and somehow my first build (with the Mac 10 turn motor) managed a spectacular combination of power and efficiency. It's more powerful than I have ever needed (as long as I can get traction, it can haul me up any hill I've found, even when loaded down with baggage), and I've yet to find a more efficient build, in WH / mile (I get 5 - 20, typically under 10, which gives me a range of 50 miles without any serious exertion).

 

[fellow]

I understand the clutch and gears are a possible week point but beyond that are the other upgrade even worth my time?

Q100H 201rpm clutch dislikes power above 500W cont (1000W peak). If you are planing to use less than that, it is a reliable little motor. I've never had problems with nylon gears, and I'm abusing it at 75V. There are two options to upgrade the clutch. First one is welding/screwing the clutch pieces together, and second one is changing the springs to stronger ones.

 

[d8veh]

With the Q128 on its own and say a 20A controller, you'll probably have all the power you need with that as long as you don't want to go too fast. A 10Ah battery with that would take you about 25 miles if you pedal steadily. Climbing a hill with one motor at 18A and the other at 25A will be a different storey.

 

[vwhammer]

Well I originally only intended to have about 1000w total split between the two motors.
Of course the controllers will allow more and I didn't really count on that.

Perhaps I can limit my total power to 1000w somehow and most of the time only use the rear motor until I really need the front.

This should help a ton with range and longevity of the motors.

I may look into some other motors later but I think I am going to sort this out and try it out before I go changing too much.

I like the idea of a low speed MAC on the rear and a high speed MAC on the front but I don't think this is the bike for such a set up.

 

[Sunder]

I think you've over engineered and over thought this. Not a bad thing as long as it's a conscious decision.

Just to give you some context, I've been riding Q100 and Q100H motors for 5 years now. I run a single rear using a 1000W controller. I weighed at my peak 78kg. There are some pretty steep hills in my area, but none very long (A 9% hill for 800m, and a 12% hill for 300m. The 12% hill has a short 21% grade, but that would be for like 10-15m tops).

I've only ever once blown a motor, when I was carrying about 20kg extra weight, and since I was sopping wet in long pants, didn't try to pedal at all.

So 1000W continuous is not possible on the Q100 motors, but it's so damn close. The common lore around here is that 800W should be the limit. That's probably sensible - but if you don't need high reliability, and you're heart's set on the 1kw power figure, I think it's a livable compromise. One burned motor in 5 years when I ride at least half my days to work isn't too bad for me.

 

[vwhammer]

I never intended to run 1000 watts through the Q100H alone.
The original plan was to run 1000 watts total split between my rear Q128H and a front Q100H.
Then I started looking at the power that is possible with the controllers that I have and thought it would be nice to have more power.
However, since it will not make me go any faster because I have the slow wind motors and for the sake of my battery I will likely rein it in a bit.

I am thinking I will still use both motors but limit the total power to about 1000 watts at various percentages rear and front (80/20, 60/40, 50/50)

I am hoping that is enough to help me climb most of the hills I will see running around town and allow me to hit my tops speed which will probably be around 20 mph.

 

[quuxman]

Going by this thread, you may just want to skip the Q128 entirely:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41698

 

[d8veh]

Going by this thread, you may just want to skip the Q128 entirely:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41698

That's the old plain cooking Q128. The newer Q128H is totally different, especially at 48v. It produces serious torque. I posted a thread about it, but I can't find it.

 

[vwhammer]

Yeah I noticed that thread started in 2012 and that over time the opinions of the 128 have gravitated toward the more positive side.
Either way I like the price point, the stealth, the weight and the power is more than enough for what I need so I am going to roll with it.

 

[d8veh]

Yeah I noticed that thread started in 2012 and that over time the opinions of the 128 have gravitated toward the more positive side.
Either way I like the price point, the stealth, the weight and the power is more than enough for what I need so I am going to roll with it.

It's not the opinions that have changed, it's the motor! The Q128H is different to the Q128. The "H" is for high power.

 

[motomech]

vwhammer, do you still want to go over some ways to install your system?

I was gone several days riding in the Sierra Nevada mountains near Durango Mex.

 

[fellow]

That second picture is really sweet. Nice ebike, lovely nature behind it! What's the range?

 

[vwhammer]

vwhammer, do you still want to go over some ways to install your system?

Sure.
I am open to any suggestions.
I think I have most of the main parts that I intend to use and a game plan to use them but I would be curious to see what you suggest.

 

[motomech]

That second picture is really sweet. Nice ebike, lovely nature behind it! What's the range?

It's hard to say as it varies quite a bit, depending on where I'm riding and how much battery I'm carrying.

I started out with a Li-Ion 10Ah and the MXUS and always got 1 1/2 to 2 miles per Ah, so sometimes range was a concern.
These days with my modular Lipo, I can carry 10Ah, 15Ah or 20Ah and I don't monitor it much(just a voltmeter)because I have more range than I ever use.

My nightly "exersize" ride is 6 miles up the boardwalk and 6 miles back.
That is rear CST only, so I only carry the 12S/10Ah that is permently mounted in the triangle bag.
I set the cruise at about 14 mph and pedal the whole way.
I would say I get at least 2 1/2 miles per Ah.

When riding on the street in traffic or off-road, I usually carry 15Ah, 10 Ah for the rear motor and 5 Ah for the frt. and probably get 1 1/2 miles per Ah.

The interesting thing about running 2WD w/ two throttles is that I almost always use half the battery for the frt. as opposed to the rear.
That's without really trying or even thinking about it much.

On the street, that's just my normal style of using both motors to take off and releasing the frt. around 18 mph for cruise.
Fast cruise requires both motors to get to and above 20 mph, but I try and stay out of that when traffic allows it.

For off road, that is using both motors for climbing and one everywhere else.

I figure that if I change over to Multi-Star Lipo, I can add 25% more range for the same space used and I plan to do that when I return to the States in Nov.

I never really built this bike for range and the 2.4"Holy Roller block tread tires @ 30 psi don't help.
Also, I'm a big guy, 6 ft and 250 lb.s.

 

[motomech]

<Would you suggest at least changing the connectors?

I swear when I bought the controller for the front all I could find was a 14a and a 19a so I went with the higher.
However, shortly after the 19a purchase, I noticed the 17a unit.
With that said though we are only talking about less than 100w difference in total power.
I would not think that would be a huge deal but I guess if it is on the edge of spinning then it could be.
Time will tell

I would have loved the 260rpm version of these motors but all I could find was a 201 or 328
I also considered running two different speed motors and I might after riding a bit and seeing what each motor is capable of.
I like the idea of having one for take off and climbing and one that will get me moving about 30mph so I can keep up with traffic in town.
I do however think that 30mph on a rigid bike could get scary on our rough roads.

Perhaps I will just leave it all alone for now and see how it works.
I am not real keen on buying a bunch of spare parts just in case something fails.
I would rather pinpoint the failure and maybe work on methods to prevent it from happening in the first place.
would you suggest at least changing the connectors?

Yes, especially the Motor phase wires and you will need to build a custom batt. to controllers harrness.
From the battery, I think I would start with this;
http://www.progressiverc.com/parallel-xt60-adapter.html
to split off the battery and clip off the two male ends and go with 4 m/m bullets from there(one nice thing about using low power motors, even two, is one can use lite gauge, "öff the shelf" adaptors and 14 ga. silicone wire for everything).
The reason I would ditch the XT60's is I have never had much success soldering them.
For me, I use the "mini torch" method with the bullets and it is really fast and easy.
For the phase connectors, I would use the 3.5 bullets.
As for the Halls, the stock white nylon connector is fine if you have the place to stash it. Still, I usually replace that big connector with 5-wire JXT's.
I like to order all the connectors, shrink-fit, etc. from my local warehouse of Hobbyking and when that is no an option, Hobby Partz or Progressive RC.

I recently switched to a pair of 201's, with the plan to eventually switching to 260's. But now, I not sure I will. I'm getting 20 plus mph on two motors w/ 24"tires and 46V. With 26"tires and 48V, you should be able to hit 22 mph. Fast enough with a ridgid.

What is your plan for a throttle(s)?

 

[vwhammer]

Yeah I have some work to do with the wiring.
I am adding a main power switch as well as a 12v drop down box for things like head and tail lights as well as phone chargers.

All of this is getting stuffed in to a triangle bag.
Once thats all mounted I will work on getting rid of any extra wires and making all the others the right length.

I am going to make openings in the side of the bag that my controllers will just barely stick out of for heat disipation.
Still trying for a stealth set up here.

As far as throttles go, I have a pas for the rear and a thumb throttle for the front. Then I can turn on or off either controller and use each motor on its own if i choose. The throttle will also be connected to the rear for on demand power as well.

 

[motomech]

Yeah I have some work to do with the wiring.
I am adding a main power switch as well as a 12v drop down box for things like head and tail lights as well as phone chargers.

All of this is getting stuffed in to a triangle bag.
Once thats all mounted I will work on getting rid of any extra wires and making all the others the right length.

I am going to make openings in the side of the bag that my controllers will just barely stick out of for heat disipation.
Still trying for a stealth set up here.

As far as throttles go, I have a pas for the rear and a thumb throttle for the front. Then I can turn on or off either controller and use each motor on its own if i choose. The throttle will also be connected to the rear for on demand power as well.

Both your controllers have on/off switchs on the displays, why do you need a main power switch??
The 12V inverter will be the size of another controller. I use a h.lite that runs off of pack Voltage and use that space for batteries.
I have run both of those controllers on 12S Lipo(46V) inside the bag with no airflow. They don't even get very warm, and that is in Az. and Mex.
Controllers inside the frame bag;





You don't need to turn the controllers on/off, except when you don't use one for 5 minutes or so. At that point it will "time out" and you will have to turn it on to use it.
The most "fiddling" you will have to do will involve the sensors aND programming the S12S. I would suggest you get that sorted out first before adding much other stuff.
I made builds #3 and #4 too complicated and builds #5 and #6 were to simplify. Less is better on these things.

 

[vwhammer]

Hmm I wondered if I needed to worry too much about the controllers in the bag.
I would prefer to have them hidden but was concerned about heat.
Maybe I will try them in the bag first and see what happens.

I just want a main kill switch that disconnects the battery from everything.
I have sorted this out and its pretty simple.
The display will function as the power switch for the S12S but I do not have a display for the front controller so I am running a simple handelbar switch.

The inverter I bought is only about 50mm x 50mm so i should have no issues squeezing that in somewhere.

 

[quuxman]

Just to give you some context, I've been riding Q100 and Q100H motors for 5 years now. I run a single rear using a 1000W controller.

What controller exactly are you using? I'm looking to upgrade the controller for my Q100H to 48V. I probably don't want to run that many watts but if I could limit the current, your controller should work great.