QS 205 vs QS 273 watts consumption

[john61ct]

I really was sincere, and still do not know what you meant.

But OK never mind, sorry if I caused offense.

 

[minde28383]

You don't need to oplogize nor am I offended. I might now remember how to spell pull vs pool and use it in proper way.

 

[Jonno]

Exactly how it is. Fast wounded hubs needs lots of amps to achieve similar thrust, also small diameter light wheel helps too.
Mostly folks have Kelly's Sabvotons or some similar cheaper controllers in 80-150 amps range. Also batteries in frames mostly are 18650 in 100 - 300pcs which have certain limits. Depending on cells and controller, most frequently they will find that slow wounded motor accelerates more dynamically with max power they can feed that hub ie might be what most are after. And this is more a rule than exception. Nevertheless all hubs are ok. There are compromises everywhere.

Well said

I've tried lots of combinations of motors, cells and controllers etc.

Motors:
3 or 4 x QS205 (2 burnt out)
1 x Cromotor (magnets came unglued)
1 x MXUS (blown)
1 x unbranded 5kw (blown)
1 x QS273 (sweet)
1 x QS138 (untried as yet)

Controllers:
4 or 5 sabvotons (all failed and unreliable)
1 x APT 96600 (good but big)
2 x 24f Nucular Electronics (wow )
various other bits of junk


Batteries:
Lipos
Lifepo4 pouches
18650
26650

Various BMS'

Battery cooling - which nobody else seems to play with

$$$$ spent doing this - note to self "Don't tell Mrs Jonno"
My current setup is the best for my requirement so far.

Having said that although both my loony test pilots love it they require something more mx and not enduro hence the QS138/24f.

Jonno

 

[MadRhino]

What I had said earlier in this thread: ‘bigger motors require more power, thus bigger batteries’, also applies to faster stator windings.

And, Minde gave an example of this. If one will not make use of the power and speed of a bigger, or faster motor, he is overbuilding, and this practice always has a cost. This cost is not (only) about money, but also in weight and performance.

We all, or should, want to build the best and safest bike for the performance that we target. Thus, components must be matching each other to achieve a consistent build.

@Junno. I am not contesting your requirements for power and speed. But the sample bike in the posted pic, does make me think you could achieve better overall handling for this performance.

 

[Tony01]

I’m pushing 24kw in a qs205. I don’t know my top speed and don’t really care anymore because it’s illegal anyway. I should have got a torque wind. I’ve had it up to 86mph. The 205 is already very heavy. Before I got it I also wanted a 273 but when I finally received my 205 I realized the 273 would have been a mistake. There is more to riding than gunning it at a stoplight. I can smoke 95% of vehicles on the road, and I can lean in hard like people with 273s can’t, because of the difference in weight. You know what a heavy rear feels like in a turn? It begins to slide out in a stutter. Extremely uncomfortable sensation.

Work in progress.

 

[MadRhino]

I’m pushing 24kw in a qs205. I don’t know my top speed and don’t really care anymore because it’s illegal anyway. I should have got a torque wind. I’ve had it up to 86mph. The 205 is already very heavy. Before I got it I also wanted a 273 but when I finally received my 205 I realized the 273 would have been a mistake. There is more to riding than gunning it at a stoplight. I can smoke 95% of vehicles on the road, and I can lean in hard like people with 273s can’t, because of the difference in weight. You know what a heavy rear feels like in a turn? It begins to slide out in a stutter. Extremely uncomfortable sensation.

Work in progress.

Exactly what I have experienced. Handling is king. The power and speed that you can’t safely ride is useless. Then, very few had fried 205h50 motors, and almost all of those who did were climbing slow, or repeated hard acceleration uphill stop and go.

I did lace a few 273 for friends, but was never tempted to build with this 56lbs motor. I would rather go mid drive if I needed a 273 hub build to do my ride. For the weight of a 273 hub build, I could achieve much better handling and overall performance with a big mid drive.

Your work in progress is ugly for an ebike IMO. :wink: , but it does have proper geometry and that is the most important for a fast ebike.

 

[Jonno]

What I had said earlier in this thread: ‘bigger motors require more power, thus bigger batteries’, also applies to faster stator windings.

And, Minde gave an example of this. If one will not make use of the power and speed of a bigger, or faster motor, he is overbuilding, and this practice always has a cost. This cost is not (only) about money, but also in weight and performance.

We all, or should, want to build the best and safest bike for the performance that we target. Thus, components must be matching each other to achieve a consistent build.

@Junno. I am not contesting your requirements for power and speed. But the sample bike in the posted pic, does make me think you could achieve better overall handling for this performance.

Exactly the 273 barely gets warm unlike the 205 which get too hot to touch doing the same climbs.

@ MadRhino Hence the words "modified EEB frame" :lol:

Jonno

 

[serious_sam]

Please find a better English word than "pools" for that meaning, no idea what you're trying to convey there

If you have no idea than context makes no sense to you.

Apply cold water to burned area!

 

[minde28383]

I did not plan it but few hours ago some guy arrived for advice with few motors and one of these looks like 273. I gave him new 205 and got this one, swapped. Both hall pairs are faulty. Peeked inside, looks clean, like new. Unfortunately don't have pics of inside. Tire looks unused at all. I wonder why halls are faulty. Sabvoton says hall error on each hall pair.
Never thought I would actually acquiere such heavy motor. Have no idea if it is fast or slow. Good or bad. All these topics with 273 mesmarized me. Thoughts materialized.

Will open it to take photos of inside.

 

[HK12K]

This reminds me that I really need to get some ferrofluid and hubsinks for my 205 before summer. Heavy guy, heavy bike, plus mountains. At times I need all of the heat shedding ability that I can muster.

The increased overhead of the 273 is really tempting, but the bike is already heavy with the 205. I can grab it by the seatpost and manhandle it now, but dangling another 20 or 30 lbs off the end might make that a bit more difficult. I know all of that added unsprung weight will come with a penalty too and the comments from many here seem to suggest that the penalty is significant. Then again there are some who have the 273 and are very happy. *shrugs*

I really wish that Luke had stuck around and told us how his 273 powered NYX turned out, but unless Doctorbass built himself a clone as well I think it was featured in one of his recent videos and I don't think it was running the QS anymore.. unless he painted it silver and drilled holes in it since we last saw him.

One of these days I might just have a few too many while online shopping and find out the hard way for myself. Worst case, I build a tadpole with a 273.

 

[john61ct]

Big cargo longtail for long steep mountain climbing, utility not fun, with 400+lb, I'd think 273 would be well suited.

Road trike / tadpole too maybe.

 

[MadRhino]

My qs 205 street bike is well under 100 lbs loaded with +2 kw/h battery capacity. I climb fast and pretty light, not risky making much heat but still, I monitor temp as a well established habit. For short range performance I can skim it to 76 lbs, making it good for very aggressive maneuvering.

 

[Tony01]

This reminds me that I really need to get some ferrofluid and hubsinks for my 205 before summer. Heavy guy, heavy bike, plus mountains. At times I need all of the heat shedding ability that I can muster.

I need this too but I was reading somewhere that FF causes damage to the glue holding the magnets. It’s gonna be a hot summer that I might only be able to ride early am or late night.

Exactly what I have experienced. Handling is king. The power and speed that you can’t safely ride is useless. Then, very few had fried 205h50 motors, and almost all of those who did were climbing slow, or repeated hard acceleration uphill stop and go.

I did lace a few 273 for friends, but was never tempted to build with this 56lbs motor. I would rather go mid drive if I needed a 273 hub build to do my ride. For the weight of a 273 hub build, I could achieve much better handling and overall performance with a big mid drive.

Your work in progress is ugly for an ebike IMO. :wink: , but it does have proper geometry and that is the most important for a fast ebike.

I had 19” wheels on it previously. That was a mistake too. It looked a lot better. But at the time I didn’t know the stutter of a heavy wheel in a lean. I just went to 17” knowing it would look a lot worse. But it doesn’t look THAT bad. Took off about 8lb per wheel.

It’s funny you say it’s ugly; I think all the manufactured ebike frames are ugly. A bike needs to have nice curves. Like a woman. Styling is difficult.

 

[HK12K]

I recall hearing the same, but a lot of people seem to run it without issue. I think my bearings are about due for replacement so I may explore painting the internals ala Doctorbass while I'm at it to seal everything if it's still in good shape in there, then add the ff and sinks.

Mine is a 4t laced into a 16" Holmes rim. Run a 17" prowheel up front laced to a nukeproof hub. I dig it, but I can definitely warm it up under certain circumstances. Especially on a hot day.

 

[markz]

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=87013&p=1281470&hilit=red+insulating+varnish#p1281470

Insulating Varnish in Red, Green, or Clear. Now is there a benefit to using Red over Green or Clear. Might be interesting to find out.
https://www.sprayon.com/product-category/electrical-electronic/

I may explore painting the internals ala Doctorbass while I'm at it to seal everything if it's still in good shape in there, then add the ff and sinks.

 

[HK12K]

Not sure, but colored would presumably make it easier to ensure complete coverage where as with clear you could conceivably miss a spot without realizing it.

 

[markz]

Not sure, but colored would presumably make it easier to ensure complete coverage where as with clear you could conceivably miss a spot without realizing it.

Another thread - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=87254&p=1274252&hilit=electrical+color+varnish#p1274252

so important....

Well curiously i'm preparing the motor for my 2nd NYX that i'm building for the friends that will visit me... and the reason why i'm actually protecting that future motor, is to avoid exactly the one like a motor i got to repair that at first had apparently a problem of shorted wires, but when i opened it i was all that rust!!!

So there are ALOT good reasons why you should add protection to the inside of our motor!.. when your ebike is exposed to rain, it will one day or another be affected by water intrusion and results often the lost of your motor or require several hours to repair the damages. on the other hand if you apply the proper coating inside it will prevent rust and make your great motor to last longer! I have 10 years of experience in ebike diy and this advice will save you money and extend your ebike motor life!

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Aside from the ability to see coverage when applying, there might be some heat benefits, or other benefits.
There was a discussion here on ES about what various colors would do, more in terms of heat from what I remember from the thread yrs back. Nothing from what I've skimmed in the thread linked above, search term "electrical color varnish"

 

[HK12K]

Could be. I'm not sure but am interested to learn more.

 

[ebike11]

They have about the same efficiency, but the bigger the motor the more power it can be fed. When you twist the full grip, the bigger motor does suck your battery like there is no tomorrow.

The QS 205 h50 is big already for an ebike, making motorcycle performance and does require a very good build to safely exploit its full potential. The 273 is too heavy IMO, its weight and power does make for the need of even more weight in batteries, wheels, suspension, brakes...

Which model controller are you using MadRhino on your QS205?

 

[MadRhino]

I have many. How much power do you want to feed?

 

[ebike11]

I have many. How much power do you want to feed?

Just curious the controller youre using with the 24s graphene pack and the qs205

 

[MadRhino]

I have many. How much power do you want to feed?

Just curious the controller youre using with the 24s graphene pack and the qs205

Right now, I am riding a modified Infineon eb3 board with 4110 mosfets. Trapezoidal. The only non sinewave controller that I have found to run a QS205H50. I don’t advise trying, for I have fried a few before succeeding. Your best buy is the Nucular.

 

[ebike11]

I have many. How much power do you want to feed?

Just curious the controller youre using with the 24s graphene pack and the qs205

Right now, I am riding a modified Infineon eb3 board with 4110 mosfets. Trapezoidal. The only non sinewave controller that I have found to run a QS205H50. I don’t advise trying, for I have fried a few before succeeding. Your best buy is the Nucular.

Ol thx..i was looking at the Nucular 24F.
Im using the Sabvoton 72200 at the moment.
Do you think if I just swapped controllers and left my qs205 and battery pack as is, would I see more top end speed? My pack is 84V hot off the charger Samsung 25R cells 20s10p
Thanks

 

[MadRhino]

It won’t give you more top speed, or little of it. It is acceleration that will improve with a more powerful controller. To improve top speed, you need higher voltage, or a faster motor winding.

 

[j bjork]

Well, I don't know about sabvoton. But if you are not using field weakening now, you sure can get more top speed with the nucular.