QS 205 vs QS 273 watts consumption

[DogDipstick]

35 wh/km

So this is about average consumption for these? This ( I think) is the only mention in this thread that enumerates a consumption figure for a typical spirited ride with a good typical average setup.

 

[MadRhino]

35 wh/km

So this is about average consumption for these?

Nope. Not typical at all. This was Jonno’s best figure, in a ride with avg speed of 14mph if I remember well. I didn’t re-read the thread to confirm, but everyone here knows what kind of ride is eating only 35 w/h per km.

I ride a 205 much higher avg speed, fast and hard acceleration every corner, and my numbers are the like of 149 w/h per km. So, pick a number in between.

 

[DogDipstick]

Ok.. so like 90Wh/ Km ( mean average of 35Wh/Km ( 56 Wh/ mile) and 150Wh/Km (241 wh/mi) ).. is = 92Wh/Km..AKA 144wh/mile.

Cool I have been pushing 70Wh / mile ( max peak mean average) on my lil bike. Nowhere near ( those big boy motors you guys ride at 241 wh/mile.. like you say... ) , I know, and the min peak average being about 20-25wh/mile (15.5Wh/Km) ( pedaling like a whore), to the peak average of 70Wh/mile ( 43 Wh/Km) when not caring about consumption. I do pick any number in between depending on how I am feeling that day.

I thought a big powerhouse like a 273 would well over consume over 100Wh/mile (~60wh/km).. or more. Nice to know it can do 56Wh/mile ( half of what I expected).

(35Wh/Km = 56Wh/ mile. )( if you like 14mph)...

So a good average for a good ride is like.. in simple numbers.... 144Wh / mile for an average person with an average QS205 or 273.

Drain a Kwh pack in 7 miles.... for an average QS 205 3V3 or a 273. .....yeah.... makes ( some sort of crazy ) sense.

I would love to see the datalog that shows the 241wh/mile ( 150 wh/km) and the speeds involved to drain a Kwh pack in ~four to five miles ( @ 241 wh/mile, aka 150wh/km... ) . To bad people dont datalog ( or share them)... but since you told us you get 241Wh/mile.. (150Wh/km... ) with this motor(s)... Some kind of empirical proof of 241Wh/mile contin... Lolo.. I appreciate you sharing the ( empirical) experience... I Thankyou.

I will take that as the "normal". 144Wh/ mile, or ( 92 Wh/Km).

Most ( maximum continuous consumption) I am trying really hard to get like 100Wh/mile with more cooling... . ( 62Wh/Km.. ) max average, loaded, uphill, at max ( averaged over time and distance) consumption. Next goal to break for me. 100Wh/mile contin. My ( current ) 70Wh/mile is moving pretty good I thought.. starting to consume alot of energy in my rides on demand... Efficiency vs bulk in battery... more batt ( capacity) and my bike would start getting heavy.. less; and I dont have the Wh for the distances @ the power levels I like to use......

Lol. So you need a kwh to go 5ive miles, Huh MadRhino? Wow. You must have a big pack. 5 miles / Kwh is boss as F... What is that, like ~120-140A continuous @ ~80v? I push about 30-40A continuous, @ 80v....

Accurate Wh/distance consumption is a very important number when sizing EV systems.

Gee glad it dont take me five-six miles to drain my pack lol that would suck.. at least I get 16 miles with my 1.25kwh.. lolo.

 

[MadRhino]

It is not continuous power that is making such big power usage, it is repeated hard acceleration every corner.

Of course, the faster you ride=the more watts you consume, mostly because of aero drag that is exponential. But, the motor is efficient when speeding continuously. Brutal acceleration starts from 0 efficiency, and continues to eat a lot of power until a stable speed is reached. After that, you are consuming the power of wind drag and weight. That is why the optimal performance and efficiency is a matter of aerodynamics first, then weight.

I don’t carry so much battery, max 12 bricks of 8 ah RC lipo that I never discharge low, roughly 2200 w/h. If I need to go far, I just ease on acceleration and ride a little slower. When I am riding performance the range is short, but I bulk charge RC lipo in 10 minutes with big power supplies.

Powerful, fast bikes can consume a lot, but you don’t have to use all that power and speed all of the time. You are the one to dose power usage for the requirement of the ride.

 

[DogDipstick]

It is not continuous power that is making big power usage, it is repeated hard acceleration every corner.

Of course, the faster you ride=the more watts you consume, mostly because of aero drag that is exponential. But, the motor is efficient when speeding continuously. Brutal acceleration starts from 0 efficiency, and eats a lot of power until a stable speed is reached.

I don’t carry so much battery, max 12 bricks of 8 ah RC lipo that I never discharge low, roughly 2200 w/h. If I need to go far, I just ease on acceleration and ride a little slower. When I am riding performance the range is short, but I bulk charge RC lipo in 10 minutes with big power supplies.

Powerful, fast bikes can consume a lot, but you don’t have to use all that power and speed all of the time. You are the one to dose power usage for the requirement of the ride.

So it is a short ride? 2200Wh.. 9.12 miles @ 241 Wh/ mile. Wow I probably couldn't live with that short range.

( either that, or the "241Wh/Mi" figure is inflated.. or the "2200Wh"? ).

( and if you only pull 1Kwh out.. that is like 4 miles?) ( @ 241 wh/ mile?) ( Id like to see what 241Wh/mile looks like, honestly ...must be windy.. (might bruise your forehead with the wind and G's against the helmet like rocketbikes do do). lol..... personally I would really like to see an example of a (mile?) ride that consumes that many (241) Watt hours on a fast light high powa Ebike/rider all up weight (200-250Kg)... (241Wh/1mile)


So how many miles do you get? For that 2200Wh? 9.12mi? On average?

Average. Average is all I really want to know.


If you are not "use all that power and speed all the time" for that figure ( 241 Wh//Mi) then you are not getting 241 Wh/ mile.

Need at least a mile right? To (empirically) know the Wh / .. or are we talking instant Wh/mile? Instant Wh/mile I have seen over 900Wh/mile.. lol... some instances... but averaged out ( mean average probally, modal average is to complex to gather any real stats from lol... right?) that drops to normal consumption.. over time and distance. We all know the stop-and-go bursts and slow speeds, takeoffs consume huge amounts of Wh/Km or mi comparatively.


A 9 mile ebike must not be alot of fun, no matter how fast or powerful it is. I'd rather drop the consumption to something rational.

Averages. Lol. 9 miles. I figured the consumption of my future emoto ( yet built) to be around 100Wh/mile for a good distance contin "peppy ride"... at my weight with my payloads... and a pack capable of (range) miles at that is (10mi/kwh)... achievable and rational. I guess I should raise that to around 200Wh/mile for my Emotobike ( yet built) ... if I want awesome power ( like you, Rhino). 5 miles / Kwh.. and say, a pack big enough for like (20Kwh?) 100 miles. I purposely sized my current bike ( motor, Kv, power, speed, wheelsize) to not pull to much (current) against the topspeed ( and all those headwinds.. ) ... the power drops and the cruise at top speed is not to high that it pushes to many Wh/mile... cause I knew I would be restricted either by pack size or power.. one or the other.. if I wanted ANY significant range...

Range trade off for power. Simply put.When you "dose " the power.. you "throttle" the Wh/mi ( Wh/Km) .. and dont get your "peak wh/".. but get the happy ( lower,) average.

Yes I know how much (more) ( city vs highway mpg) stop-and-go bursts consume. ( fighting G's, a little air, and rolling resistance.. ... and wasting what (energy) you just spent (throttled) on acceleration, on the brakes at the next blocks stop sign.. repeat... )

You bulk charge 1100wh (50% discharge for the lipos of the above mentioned 2200Wh) in ten min, for "performance riding"? Wow. That quite a charge rate.

Please excuse my "newbness" for it is all really enthusiasm that drives me to ask these questions. Yall have years of experience over me. I really am just phishing for knowledge here.

I have a solid 500+ logs that show me both, the average throttle voltage ( for the particular ride in question), and the average Wh/mile consumption... ( for that, particular ride, in question)...

More people should log data. Answers alot of questions. It's great.

 

[MadRhino]

My mountain trail circuit is 9 km. When the trails are nice and free, I complete the ride with my battery almost lvc averaging 149 w/h per km.

My city commute is 7.5 km. I often do it very fast, accelerating every corner with a friend riding a big motorcycle in my tail. Averaging about the same power usage as my dirt bike riding full power as above.

Yet, I can also go shopping. I sometimes do long rides to visit someone. I ride in the winter, on slushy, snowy or even icy streets. Avg speed then much slower and riding less aggressively.

I can’t give you the average power usage of a bike over its entire life. We all have cruising average, commuting average, mountain average... You decide how you ride your bike, you will have your own power usage, even with the very same bikes as I. That is why I say: pick a number in between very conservative snd very aggressive riding.

As for comparison between 2 motors, it is irrelevant. For the same ride, two DD motors builds of the same speed will have very close power usage numbers. What could make a considerable difference is aerodynamics.

 

[MadRhino]

...You bulk charge 1100wh (50% discharge for the lipos of the above mentioned 2200Wh) in ten min, for "performance riding"? Wow. That quite a charge rate.

RC lipo, even when they are the same chemistry as round cells, is made and does behave very different.

I charge full, often a little high, at +4.2 v per s cell. I never discharge low, stop at 3.7 v. That is still the real usage battery capacity: about 2200 w/h

I charge 2000 w/h in 10 minutes. That is 6c charging rate. I could do faster. Low impedance RC lipo can be charged as fast as 15c up to 80% capacity. I monitor temp when charging, tells me when to start worrying.

 

[DogDipstick]

Oh yeah Rc lipo I keep forgetting that ( you have ) Rc lipo that also can charge at high rates. Even though I love to charge my Rc lipo at high rates too. Lol. I do my e-bike pack at 0.5 C most of the time.. and yeah... The trip to the corner store and lightweight usage in total wh consumed. 0.5 C doesn't take to long to top up the last 250 Wh in my pack that I use on a short trip.

As for comparison between 2 motors, it is irrelevant. For the same ride, two DD motors builds of the same speed will have very close power usage numbers. What could make a considerable difference is aerodynamics.

That... That right there says alot alot. Ty

So I would guess ...

...for a certain weight at a certain speed there is a definite (absolute) wh/mile consumption that follows load.

(And that, load, is different for different " average people" b/c hills, applications and desired cruise speed, accelerations.. whether you carry your 4x8 plywood sheet face forward, or on edge... )

Given steady state... Period.... ? Cool.

Replace " certain" with the word " average" ... And that is the average consumption... Given which type of ride it is... "Spirited, " or Economical" or whatever.

Ok.

 

[john61ct]

As for comparison between 2 motors, it is irrelevant. For the same ride, two DD motors builds of the same speed will have very close power usage numbers

Then why are so many members denigrating the idea of using the QS 273 for an ebike, going on about how a heavier motor should be avoided in favor of the 205 ?

Given purely utility usage, heavy loads and steep hills to climb seems to me having lots of extra power on tap would be a huge advantage, even if it's only needed occasionally.

I agree for use cases where weight needs to be minimized, but where it doesn't I thought Wh/km would be very different

 

[MadRhino]

... whether you carry your 4x8 plywood sheet face forward, or on edge... )

Yep, that is the most important efficiency factor. That is why a faired recumbent can do 90 kmh with 350w. Weight is next: hp per kg ratio

 

[john61ct]

I charge 2000 w/h in 10 minutes. That is 6c charging rate. I could do faster.

Which brands/lines do you consider consistent in quality?

Which specific packs are you using, and total voltage when series connected?

Do you charge at such high rates even when you aren't in a hurry? What PSU do you use?

If you have a build thread that details all this, just a link to that would be appreciated.

 

[john61ct]

Low impedance RC lipo

Why use impedance there, as opposed to resistance?

 

[DogDipstick]

I am going back to reread the rest of the thread cause it is all you guys talking bout the differences between the two... motors in application.... And that's the subject of this thread.


The Graphenes have high charge rates. I got one that is one of the older black and red ones and I can't beat it up. The other heli packs I charge at 5c if I can whenever I can.The new Graphenes will max out a big hobby charger. I hate buying lipos.

 

[MadRhino]

As for comparison between 2 motors, it is irrelevant. For the same ride, two DD motors builds of the same speed will have very close power usage numbers

Then why are so many members denigrating the idea of using the QS 273 for an ebike, going on about how a heavier motor should be avoided in favor of the 205 ?

Given purely utility usage, heavy loads and steep hills to climb seems to me having lots of extra power on tap would be a huge advantage, even if it's only needed occasionally.

I agree for use cases where weight needs to be minimized, but where it doesn't I thought Wh/km would be very different

That is about the limits of bicycle components. Even a 205 is making it a very complicated task, to build proper balance, handling, suspension, braking distance. A 273 does require more than mods, it does need motorcycle components to achieve those requirements. So, that is a case where the extra weight of one component, does command the use of other heavy components. Then, you may succeed building the adequate bike for the motor, but it won’t handle as good, would it be only because of its weight.

As I have said before, I would use one if I was building a Tuk Tuk taxi, or a huge cargo bike. Not for sport riding.

 

[Jonno]

Update on "averages"

409 miles covered
16.55 mph average
42 wh/m

I will recalibrate and reset everything and start again- just for fun.

241wh/m ? A tesla 3 uses 260wh/m and weighs 1600 kgs
What are your averages?

 

[MadRhino]

Low impedance RC lipo

Why use impedance there, as opposed to resistance?

Impedance is electric resistance. They mean the same, only resistance can have other meanings.

 

[MadRhino]

Update on "averages"

409 miles covered
16.55 mph average
42 wh/m

I will recalibrate and reset everything and start again- just for fun.

241wh/m ? A tesla 3 uses 260wh/m and weighs 1600 kgs
What are your averages?

I quit using a CA long ago, because I crash the bikes a few times a year and tired replacing fragile add-ons. Now building minimalist, crash proof. I can measure efficiency of a ride with w/h recharge, but not logging stats.

 

[MadRhino]

You can't compare a car and a bike, unless the bike is a velomobile and it’s built with a transmission. Only then, weight would show as a notable factor of efficiency.

 

[Jonno]

I don't blame you there.
I'll get a test pilot to go for a brisk 20 mile ride and check the wh/m.

Jonno

 

[MadRhino]

I am using an assembly of old Meanwell PSU’s. Those big ones with 4 fans that were made in USA. They are powered 240v, those can be assembled parallel and series. Got them very cheap at electronics recycling, a decade ago. Still working fine.

 

[Jonno]

You can't compare a car and a bike, unless the bike is a velomobile and it’s built with a transmission. Only then, weight would show as a notable factor of efficiency.

Why?
Transmission?
Velomobile?

This is a general observation. You have 50kg bike using 231wh/m and Tesla has 1600 kgs using 260wh/m. Even if you quadruple Teslas wh/m usage it makes the efficiency of hub motors useless

 

[MadRhino]

You can't compare a car and a bike, unless the bike is a velomobile and it’s built with a transmission. Only then, weight would show as a notable factor of efficiency.

Why?
Transmission?
Velomobile?

This is a general observation. You have 50kg bike using 231wh/m and Tesla has 1600 kgs using 260wh/m. Even if you quadruple Teslas wh/m usage it makes the efficiency of hub motors useless

Methinks you are severely underestimating the effect of wind resistance, and transmission, in vehicle efficiency results.

I repeat watt said earlier: a faired recumbent does 90 kmh with 350w. Full faired velomobiles, even better. Direct drive vs modern transmission: amazing efficiency improvement.

Another factor?
A Tesla is very far behind me in city commuting.

 

[Jonno]

Tesla is a single speed transmission.
Zero Motorcycle - single speed - between 80 and 160 Wh/m and not very aero dynamic

But hey ho you know best.

 

[MadRhino]

Tesla is a single speed transmission.
Zero Motorcycle - single speed - between 80 and 160 Wh/m and not very aero dynamic

But hey ho you know best.

Ebike manufacturers also saying their 500 w/h battery will do 100 km range. Playing tricks with stats and average is a common marketing game.

A Zero can deplete its battery very quick, if you ride it as to use max power. Normal that it does eat average 100 w/h per km, since it has normal bike aerodynamics. But I have no doubt it could use more than twice when ridden aggressively.

 

[MadRhino]

Try it with your bike. Accelerate full throttle to 50 mph, brake to a stop, repeat until 10 miles done. Measure power usage.