Quattrocycle electric assist

[arosenzweig]

Requesting help thinking of e-assist solutions for the Quattrocycle.

I played a small role in bringing the Quattrocycle to North America. We now have 6 Quattrocycles in the wild and another 6 in stock. A total of 12 were shipped from Holland this summer.

Here's a video of a family in action in North Carolina:

[youtube]lFklx0-qITk[/youtube]

The default electric assist solution is nice and stylish. It works well on the flatlands of Holland but is too weak for hilly areas. It is powered by a little 8FUN Bafang motor with its own drive chain. As small as this geared hub motor is, it does a remarkable job. But when you consider that the Quattrocycle weighs 250 lbs. plus 4 adults plus 3 kids you can easily hit 1,300 lbs that you have to move.

I've attached a few photos of the current e-assist solution for you to see.

View attachment 1



So, now that the Quattrocycle is here, we need to find a way to improve the electric assist for the American market.

I'm in talks with recumpence ("Matt") to see if he can give us a "Pike's Peak Solution." But I also want to find a legal general use solution that could climb a 20% grade hill.

While I believe that mid-drive systems are a great solution for 2-wheel bikes, it is probably not a good idea here. The Quattrocycle has 4 independent Shimano Nexus gear hubs. We don't want that extra power ripping those gears apart. Seems better to have a dedicated chain line for the e-assist. That can afford us a thick chain and a single powerful motor and let the driver fully control it. The Dutch engineers were smart to design the e-assist chain line the way they did... it's just the current motor isn't enough.

The laws are not kind to a cycle like this. If you think about EU standards, a bike can't have more than 250w applied. But if you multiply that by four riders a Quattrocycle should be allowed 1000w. Now look at USA federal standards of 750w. That really should afford the Quattrocycle 3,000w. But, alas, the law doesn't work that way.

Of course watts are only part of the story. Those gear hubs are generally only a gear reduction of 5 to one. We probably want at least a 12 to one gear reduction for a family cycle, perhaps more!

What do you guys say? Can we place a 750 watt power plant with a 48 volt battery and a creative gear reduction to push the Quattocycle up a 20% incline at 10 mph or more?

At the moment my best idea is this Chinese "military" style motor:

http://tzdatai.en.alibaba.com/product/326765807-210647355/dc_tricycle_motor.html

What do you guys think of this or do you have other thoughts? Personally I'd like something a bit more stylish but I don't have any other ideas. Please advise.

Thank you,
-- Aaron

 

[Bluefang]

Easiest way would be to change to a Lyen 6fet controller at 48+Volts and gear down to a sensible speed. Small sprocket on the hub and biggest you can fit on the back. The small hub you have should be able to handle a couple of KW. Its a family vehicle that i would expect you only want a top speed of 15-20mph max? With that low gearing you will be surprised how powerful it feels just by increasing the volts and going to 1kw constant and 2-3kw peak power. Worst case swap out to a DD hub and you end up with regen brakes too $80 plus some extra battery power.

Lyen 6fet will handle this power easily, may need to increase the shunt value but i think you can ask lyen to do that for you so it will be a plug and play system. http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18744

I would not even touch the linked motor, you could mount a magic pie under there with only a slight mod to the mounting or a 9C motor. With the pie you will have gobs of torque to help move the quad 5kw+ would be relatively easy. In the US you have a ton of places to buy from that will be great solutions. www.ebikes.ca for kits or cell man on the forums i think

 

[arosenzweig]

Hi Bluefang.

I've read in the FAQ that GoldenMotor (Magic Pie) might have quality issues. Are they better now? I also noticed they had 48v 30ah packs for an ok price. They aren't pretty or immediately lockable like their other packs though.

There is not much room to gear down with a big sprocket in the back and a small one in the front. Right now it is a 1 to 1 ratio. Any bigger in the back and the sprocket will start hitting the axle. Any smaller in the front and the chain won't be clearing the axle. Seems like I need something else in the middle and maybe some idler arms to make it happen.

 

[Bluefang]

For the pie, their quality issues come more from shipping from china(damage in transit) then anything else and for alot of people on this forum they are not easily modified for high power. If 1kw at 48V is going to be enough then a pie would surfice.

For a better motor 9C motors are still reasonably cheap but on your quad you would have to get one with a really slow wind, Low rpm/v

Best solution for now would be to get a 6fet lyen controller, some sort of power meter like a Cycle analyst and see if the power up is enough just with that. What batteries does the quad have at the moment cause they could also limit the current your controller has to supply to the motor.

If you really want to turn the quad into a beast then http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=40859 would be the best at it with some small modifications But would be better run on 72V so probably a pair of your current batteries.

Also another option would be this new kit everyone has been playing with http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42785. Will work with the current motor etc so can be a nice add-on. Will also go through the gears, from looking at the pics you should be able to mount on one of the rear cranks on top of the square tube behind the front seats. Seems to be doing 1+kw straight out of the box. Should be easy to hook up along with the current system, just link the ground and signal wire from the throttle to the secondary system and only connect the positive from the primary system

 

[amberwolf]

Just a heads up for you, so you don't run into unexpected troulbe after investing in this:

The catch will be if you intend to market this for anything but offroad applications--it will be an illegal vehicle in many places because it isn't a car, and in those places (like here in AZ) nothing but a car (motor vehicle, with DOT approval and VIN and registration, insurance, etc.) can have more than three wheels on the ground at the same time, for use on public roads or bike paths/trails/etc.

it's possible they'd just ignore it, but they could ticket it for registration/insurance, even though you couldn't get it registered (or probably insured), and possibly no license if the riders don't have one. Possibly for other things, like insufficient lighting or safety devices or whatever else they feel like...I don't know if the tickets will all stand up in court, but I doubt they would make it easy on the riders if they did decide to pick on them.

So check out the laws that define a bicycle-class vehicle wherever you watn to sell it as an on-road vehicle or as a bicycle that could be used on paths or bike lanes or other public paths/places, as many define it specifically as no more than 3 wheels in contact with the ground at a time, or 3 wheels period. If they don't do that you might be ok.

 

[arkmundi]

Really cool! Love it. Best. :lol:

 

[arosenzweig]

Bluefang thanks. I'll hit up Lyen for advice, as you suggest. It would be nice to see what the current setup can do with a bit more power and a different controller. The current batteries are 36v 14ah lithiums. The standard Chinese variety in a metal case that locks into the back with a key to deter theft.

 

[arosenzweig]

amberwolf thanks for the warning. Generally the Quattrocycle is legal, especially when it is pedal power alone. When you add electric some places will technically want to classify it as a "tractor" requiring windshield, etc. It is a unique creation that brings joy to practically all who see it. It is not a speed demon, it is a social cycle. It is a "bicycle car" as the kids in my neighborhood call it, almost like Fred Flintstone. Law enforcement has been very kind to me in Maryland. As any father knows, it is stressful to take your kids out "biking" on any road. The Quattrocycle totally solves that problem. Plus I'm chatting away with my wife throughout the ride. We're meeting neighbors and friends we never would have otherwise. It's a wonderful thing.

 

[wildharemtbkr]

Those are cool, my favorite quad cycle. They are quite heavy though! How much do they cost?

 

[arosenzweig]

wildharemtbkr thanks. All the pricing is on the Chat 'n Bike web site. Pricing is "shipped to your door" nothing hidden. Quattrocycle weight is around 250 pounds without people on top. Four people pedal. Four people shift their own gears.

Those are cool, my favorite quad cycle. They are quite heavy though! How much do they cost?

 

[wildharemtbkr]

Haha Aaron your website is great! I've checked out, online, every quad cycle I could find. You have them all in one place, and how to purchase in north America! To cool. I had previously determined this one to be the best, but was a bit concerned about the weight, although they are all heavy. 85# per rider is allot. How is it in use? Is it something that struggles to go 12mph? Really cool idea to combine shipping.

 

[amberwolf]

If it were up to me, it wouldnt' matter how many wheels it has on it, but somehow that seems to be how lawyers figure out what kind of vehicle something is.

FWIW, even Maryland defines a bike as something with less than four wheels, so I guess as long as you stay on the enforcers' good side, it'll be ok.

Md. TRANSPORTATION Code Ann. § 11-104 (2012)
§ 11-104. Bicycle
"Bicycle" means a vehicle that:
(1) Is designed to be operated by human power;
(2) Has two or three wheels, of which one is more than 14 inches in diameter; and
(3) Has a drive mechanism other than by pedals directly attached to a drive wheel.

So a "drift trike" (cuz of the pedals directly on the front axle) or a unicycle (one wheel) wouldn't be a bicycle, nor would the quadricycle. Exactly what any of those *would* be considered I don't know; I didn't look up any of the other law.

 

[arosenzweig]

Hey wildharemtbkr. We're two of a kind. I patiently waited since 2008 for someone to bring the Quattrocycle to the USA till I couldn't wait any longer. Went directly to Holland to learn first-hand how to assemble them. We shipped 12 here this summer. 6 families are enjoying them now, we have 6 more in inventory. My family of four builds them one at a time, you can see videos of each assembled cycle on YouTube. Yes, any family cycle is heavy, that's why I'm here on Endless Sphere trying to figure out the best way to "equalize" the weight so that it feels like your pushing a regular bike. The current electric assist is great on flat land but struggles on the hills. Without electric assist it still goes well on flat ground but it is geared low. It goes fast enough to feel the wind in your face which is all I care about. I don't know but I'd imagine you couldn't do more than 15 mph. Going downhill there's no point pedaling because of the low gears, you are just freewheeling.

4 young men took non-assisted Quattrocycle across the length of Britain in a little over a week:

http://www.chatnbike.com/family/pageWithName/17/date/Blog/

Cheers,
-- Aaron

Haha Aaron your website is great! I've checked out, online, every quad cycle I could find. You have them all in one place, and how to purchase in north America! To cool. I had previously determined this one to be the best, but was a bit concerned about the weight, although they are all heavy. 85# per rider is allot. How is it in use? Is it something that struggles to go 12mph? Really cool idea to combine shipping.