Questions for Kalkhoff (or Panasonic inline motor) owners

[alins]

Three quick questions:

1. How is this 250W motor on steep hills? I have a hill with average gradient of 6% over 1.6 miles. However it has some very steep parts (18-19% over 0.1 or 0.2 miles) and parts which are around 10-11%.

2. What are my options besides the Kalkhoff or Kettler bikes if I want to get this motor?

3. What is a fair way to compare the Panasonic motor with other geared motors? Example: I did a test ride on an iZip Zuma today (500 W, 36V, rear hub) and while it did go up a 16% road (only 0.05 miles), it did so with some really good pedal assist. On throttle only it was groaning and eventually made it. Will the Panasonic be any better?

Of course my last question is why are they so expensive ... but well, I will be very happy with advice on the three above!

Thanks very much

Paul

 

[Ykick]

I had a 24v panasonic bike for couple years. It's a great pedelec but it only helps if you help. The fact that it drives through the bicycle gearing is a tremendous benefit and I climbed steep bridge approaches with very little leg effort. But it's nothing like a throttle bike.

You might search some japanese websites for national brand bicycles with the panasonic pedelec system. Very little you can do to mod them as far as I know but if you desire a very high electrical efficiency with little added weight in a waterproof package it's the way to go. Crazy expensive and dunno why except perhaps licensing fees and/or import fees?

 

[alins]

Thanks, it's hard to get comparative reviews or opinions of the Panasonic system vs standard geared or direct drive systems.

So would you say a 500W geared hub motor (e.g. iZip Zuma) may actually perform better on hills than the Panasonic? I like to pedal so lack of a throttle is not that big of an issue.

Paul

 

[Ykick]

Sorry, I have no point of reference for comparing 500w geared hub to the Panasonic drive. It's about 200w through the gears and I never encountered a hill that needed lowest gear to climb. Whisper quiet, very lightweight, super efficient but not much more than 10-15mph system.

I found his place selling Japanese goods with a panasonic model:

http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/vvv/item/pana-vivi/

Do some searches using - panasonic + vivi + national That should help you find more info/models.

 

[zap]

Paul, you might find this an interesting read.
http://www.petesebikes.com/blog/item/debut_of_the_kalkhoff_pro_connect_p-11/
He's modded his Kalkhoff with a 11 tooth drive gear and the new Shimano Alfine-11

I have little doubt Chuck would be glad to talk to you, he's a nice guy. I think he's also the one who took a Kalkhoff up Pike's Peak in last years race.

 

[d8veh]

I've tried a couple of Panasonic drive bikes and didn't find them any better than the 250w hub drive bikes. If you're stuck with EU legislation or similar (250w) the new Bosch drive bikes are miles better at hill-climbing and also the Tonaro with the Yamaha drive has a good reputation. If you're not worried about the 250w limit then a code 12 or higher Bafang BPM motor with 36, 44 or 48v and 30 amp controller will get you up any hill with ease. The only ready-made bikes with this motor that I know is the Alien Aurora.

 

[alins]

Doesn't look like I can get any of these bikes in the US ... some links

Bosch
http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/ebike/homepage.html

Tonaro
http://www.tonaro.cn/

The Tonaro bright looks identical to the RMartin R10 and if the claims here are valid, then it should be able to handle steep hills:
http://www.tonaro.cn/support.html

Alien Aurora
http://alienbikes.co.uk/page7.htm

 

[spinningmagnets]

I very much enjoyed reading the Alien Aurora blurbs, such as:

With this performance, the Aurora is therefore illegal to use on UK or European roads and MUST only be used off road. Due to the illegality of the bike, AlienOcean will not take any responsibility for any incident whatsoever related to anyone using the Aurora in either on-road or off-road conditions.

However, it doesn't look too illegal does it? In fact, with the FREE PANNIER SET included with the bike you'd be hard pushed to see that it was an electric bike at all. Is this a deliberate strategy so our customers don't look as if they're riding an ebike and might also get away with it being illegal? Of course not and I could never condone such actions! This bike IS illegal!

(nudge! WINK!)

He openly specs the 36V / 18A rear-hub Bafang as a high performance motor (by EU standards). Its price is 999-GBP ($1600-USD). Which is actually not bad for an integrated complete bike these days. Front suspension hardtail, dual disc brakes...all the extra weight is in the back, but...the Bafang + 10aH lithium isn't too heavy as far as kits go.

If someone wanted to be EU-legal, or wanted to sell something that passes muster...IMHO the hot ticket is some type of nearly silent motor driving the BB (similar to Cyclone). Give the motor some gears and even the small Cute-branded hub driving the bb can outperform the axle-driving Bafang.

24V/48V series/parallel switching with a secret switch that defaults to 24V might even be a great stealth feature to allow (for the technically minded who are comfortable hacking). Not so much for speed, but for low gear hill-climbing. Limiting power is simply short-sighted and somewhat foolish.

One of the reasons the early 1990's 4-cylinder Honda Civic is popular for turbocharging is that...the STOCK crankshaft and block are well-known to easily handle 300-HP (turbod16.com). And this is in a car that is clearly an economy car with a stock HP around 100? Believe me, Honda knew what they were doing when they produced that, it was no mistake.