Re-purpose a Strommer - Syno Sport wheel

[rick_p]

A few notes for those who end up here looking for general guidance on testing Hall Sensors.

You want to start, or maybe end your research on this excellent article: Testing BLDC Motor's Phase and Hall Sensor Wiring.
There is useful information on creating a homemade Hall sensor tester in this thread about an Intermittent No Power Problem

Now on to my issue with figuring out how to connect a Strommer - Syno Sport wheel to a generic controller. One of the first things to note on this topic is, from what I've researched thus far, Strommer has historically put the controller, either complete or part, inside the hub motor. However, this particular model wheel may be a departure (at least somewhat) from that convention. The wheel came up in conversation in the second thread linked above, and I will post the pictures here, but that is where I learned from @amberwolf ...

amberwolf: "That connector indicates it is almost certainly not an internal controller model, but instead has 5 hall wires, 3 phase, and two other signal wires (probably temperature, possibly a cadence or torque sensor)."

Me: I am curious what it was about the connector that tipped you off to determine that it's almost certainly not an internal controller model, is it the orientation of the pins or what?

amberwolf: Well, first, it's the same as the connector used on my non-internal-controller Ultramotors off the A2B Metros and the Phaserunner v6 I use on one of them. Next, there are three fat pins, which is the same as you'd need for phases. You don't need three fat pins if there's an internal controller, just two for battery + and -.



So, with that information I set out to figure out which wires are which. The three phase wires are obvious, three down and seven to go. Here is what the wheel looks like:



What I've tried thus far; I started with AI to hopefully reduce the amount of support I would need here on the forum, I'm not sure how well that is working out, but we shall see. It recommended starting with the most non-invasive approach possible, by methodically testing every pair of pins for continuity (ohms resistance) to see if I could find a common ground, but that test did not provide any definitive results, which might mean that there is some sort of circuit board inside, even if it's not a "controller" as we normally think of it. Here are the results of that test.

Note that pins 1-5 are grouped together (forming a smile) and pins 6 and 7 are adjacent to the phase pins.
Legend: OL means Open Load, and the meter was set to Auto Ohms.

	Pin 1	Pin 2	Pin 3	Pin 4	Pin 5	Pin 6	Pin 7
Pin 1	------------	35	OL	OL	35	OL	OL
Pin 2	OL	------------	OL	Started to read, then OL	11	OL	OL
Pin 3	OL	OL	------------	OL	OL	OL	OL
Pin 4	OL	Started to read, then OL	OL	------------	OL	OL	OL
Pin 5	OL	11	OL	Started to read, then OL	------------	OL	OL
Pin 6	OL	35	OL	OL	35	------------	OL
Pin 7	OL	35	OL	OL	35	OL	------------

The test was inconclusive (no ground pin determined) because no single pin had a low resistence to all the other pins, and pins 4 and 2, which start with resistance for a second but then go to OL might indicate a temperature sensor that requires power to show a reading.

What AI suggested next is below. Note that you need to look at the tester I made for it to make sense, note the 10k resister inline with the 5-volt power wire.

1. Isolate the Motor: Disconnect the motor's 7-pin connector from the controller and connect it to your testing tool.
2. The Pair-Testing Method:Since you don't know which pins are power and ground, you will have to test combinations. This is a safe process because the tester's 5V power source is low-voltage.
   • Use a small jumper wire to connect your tool's ground wire (usually black) to one of the pins on the motor's connector. This will be your suspect ground.
   • Use another jumper wire to connect your tool's +5V wire (usually red) to a different pin. This will be your suspect power.
3. Search for the Hall Signals: With the suspected power and ground pins connected, set your multimeter to DC Voltage mode (e.g., 20V range).
   • Place the multimeter's black probe on the pin connected to your tool's ground wire.
   • Touch the red probe to each of the remaining five pins.
   • Slowly rotate the wheel by hand. You are looking for a pin that shows a voltage that toggles distinctly between 5V and 0V as you turn the wheel.
4. Analyze the Results:
   • If you find a pin that toggles between 5V and 0V, you have successfully identified the power (+5V) and ground (GND) pins on your motor's connector. You can then use your tool's remaining leads to find the other two Hall signal wires.
   • If you get no reading, or the voltage doesn't toggle, swap the jumper wires to a new combination of pins and repeat the process.

I would love to hear your thoughts. Will this work? Is it safe for the wheel?

 

[amberwolf]

What I've tried thus far; I started with AI to hopefully reduce the amount of support I would need here on the forum, I'm not sure how well that is working out, but we shall see. It recommended starting with the most non-invasive approach possible, by methodically testing every pair of pins for continuity (ohms resistance) to see if I could find a common ground, but that test did not provide any definitive results, which might mean that there is some sort of circuit board inside, even if it's not a "controller" as we normally think of it. Here are the results of that test.

The "common ground" isn't likely to be findable via simple resistance testing.

You'll get a dead short between the three phase wires.

If you use Diode Test you *may* read a value when testing *in reverse* from the ground to the three hall signal pins, because they are open-collector transistor outputs that simply ground the output when active, but don't have a connection to the supply voltage without the controller connected.

You may also read a value in DT in reverse across ground to 5v supply for the halls. If they have an internal filter capacitor, you may read a value that changes and then goes out of range, when reading in the correct polarity.


If there is a temperature sensor, it is almost always some form of thermistor, and that will read some resistance, almsot always from it's signal wire to ground, sometimes from signal to 5v, and that resistnace will change with temperature.

Sometimes they use an LM35 or other digital sensor, and you won't be able to tell that signal line from others by a simple resistance test.

1. The Pair-Testing Method:Since you don't know which pins are power and ground, you will have to test combinations. This is a safe process because the tester's 5V power source is low-voltage.

FWIW, that last statement is not correct. If a part is polarity sensitive, it can be damaged or destroyed by even a momentary reverse application of voltage. Whether any of the parts you're potentially dealing with in there are such, you'd have to know what they are and look up their datasheets. Since you don't know what they are, you can't know that it is safe.

This might be mitigatable by limiting the current to microamps up to perhaps a milliamp or few, but it has to be enough to power the device(s) and let them operate normally or the test wont' work anyway. This is what the inline resistor with the 5v supply is for...but it doesn't reduce the voltage, it reduces the current.

Whether it reduces it enough, you won't know until you find all the wires' functions and test them correctly. If you don't ever get signals or you get the wrong ones, you won't know if that's because stuff was damaged by the test itself or was previoulsy not working or if it's simply not built inside the expected way.

Unfortunately there isn't really much of a better way to find out, experimentally. Opening up the motor would tell you, but that's impractical as it requires unlacing the motor.


What I would recommend is the same as before: Look up the pinouts for other systems that use this connector, and use their pinout as a starting point for the testing. it's as likely as any other pattern to be correct, since there are no "standards" all companies hold to.

1. • Use a small jumper wire to connect your tool's ground wire (usually black) to one of the pins on the motor's connector. This will be your suspect ground.
   • Use another jumper wire to connect your tool's +5V wire (usually red) to a different pin. This will be your suspect power.
2. Search for the Hall Signals: With the suspected power and ground pins connected, set your multimeter to DC Voltagemode (e.g., 20V range).
   • Place the multimeter's black probe on the pin connected to your tool's ground wire.
   • Touch the red probe to each of the remaining five pins.
   • Slowly rotate the wheel by hand. You are looking for a pin that shows a voltage that toggles distinctly between 5V and 0V as you turn the wheel.

This procedure is incorrect; it's missing at least one step. If it is a typical standard motor, the halls would be open-collector, and will not output any voltage. Without a pullup resistor from signal to supply voltage, there won't be a signal, just a ground when activated by a magnet (or more accurately, a change in the magnetic field, for most of the halls being bipolar latching OC types). .

I recommend that you look thru the various posts about testing halls and motors and whatnot, to find the actual test procedures to be used to verify if one is working that have been successfully used by real people. (sorry I don't have any links...but there are a lot of them!)

 

[rick_p]

The "common ground" isn't likely to be findable via simple resistance testing.

You'll get a dead short between the three phase wires.

If you use Diode Test you *may* read a value when testing *in reverse* from the ground to the three hall signal pins, because they are open-collector transistor outputs that simply ground the output when active, but don't have a connection to the supply voltage without the controller connected.

You may also read a value in DT in reverse across ground to 5v supply for the halls. If they have an internal filter capacitor, you may read a value that changes and then goes out of range, when reading in the correct polarity.

If there is a temperature sensor, it is almost always some form of thermistor, and that will read some resistance, almsot always from it's signal wire to ground, sometimes from signal to 5v, and that resistnace will change with temperature.

Sometimes they use an LM35 or other digital sensor, and you won't be able to tell that signal line from others by a simple resistance test.

FWIW, that last statement is not correct. If a part is polarity sensitive, it can be damaged or destroyed by even a momentary reverse application of voltage. Whether any of the parts you're potentially dealing with in there are such, you'd have to know what they are and look up their datasheets. Since you don't know what they are, you can't know that it is safe.

This might be mitigatable by limiting the current to microamps up to perhaps a milliamp or few, but it has to be enough to power the device(s) and let them operate normally or the test wont' work anyway. This is what the inline resistor with the 5v supply is for...but it doesn't reduce the voltage, it reduces the current.

Whether it reduces it enough, you won't know until you find all the wires' functions and test them correctly. If you don't ever get signals or you get the wrong ones, you won't know if that's because stuff was damaged by the test itself or was previoulsy not working or if it's simply not built inside the expected way.

Unfortunately there isn't really much of a better way to find out, experimentally. Opening up the motor would tell you, but that's impractical as it requires unlacing the motor.

What I would recommend is the same as before: Look up the pinouts for other systems that use this connector, and use their pinout as a starting point for the testing. it's as likely as any other pattern to be correct, since there are no "standards" all companies hold to.

This procedure is incorrect; it's missing at least one step. If it is a typical standard motor, the halls would be open-collector, and will not output any voltage. Without a pullup resistor from signal to supply voltage, there won't be a signal, just a ground when activated by a magnet (or more accurately, a change in the magnetic field, for most of the halls being bipolar latching OC types). .

I recommend that you look thru the various posts about testing halls and motors and whatnot, to find the actual test procedures to be used to verify if one is working that have been successfully used by real people.

As always, thank you for your detailed reply, very much appreciated. The very first thing I did (extensively) was to search the pinouts for other systems that use this connector, and use their pinout as a starting point for the testing, but I found zero, not even one, not anywhere, so if you know of one, please share.

Regarding...

If it is a typical standard motor, the halls would be open-collector, and will not output any voltage. Without a pullup resistor from signal to supply voltage, there won't be a signal,

It's very possible I don't understand what you're suggesting here, but I did indicate that I would use the power supply wire that has the resister in line, but maybe that is not what you are talking about?

This is a brand new wheel of very high quality, which is why I didn't simply trust AI before posting the suggestion here. I know for a fact AI makes mistakes, I use it for work sometimes, and at times it's on the mark and other times it's flat out wrong.

You mentioned that opening the motor is unpractical, which it is for most people, maybe even me, but I assure you that unlacing the wheel is the least of my concerns, I've laced dozens of wheels, but I'd be much more concerned with damaging something trying to open it, if I even owned the puller required to do so, which I don't.

Bottom line here is, if I can't safely find a way to figure out the pin configuration, I'm likely to put the wheel back on the shelf until I get lucky and find that someone else has already figured it out first and shared that info. This leaves me wondering if contacting Strommer would work, maybe they'd be willing to just tell me what the story is.

 

[amberwolf]

As always, thank you for your detailed reply, very much appreciated. The very first thing I did (extensively) was to search the pinouts for other systems that use this connector, and use their pinout as a starting point for the testing, but I found zero, not even one, not anywhere, so if you know of one, please share.

As referenced but not directly stated in my post about the connector, Grin Tech uses this on their stuff, and they have a common pinout for it. It's in their manuals if not directly on the site.

A search on "L1019 pinout" finds a few images showing which pin is used for what; I didn't compare them to see if they all use the same one or not. I copied the first three here. You may be able to find more pinouts with the other two connector names you foudn for this type, or looking up specific motors or controllers that use them (like a2b, stromer, tdcm, ultramotor, etc) (I didn't check).
etc
There's also a bunch more connectors here

Ebike motor connectors

docs.google.com

if you ever need them (found this in the same search)

Regarding...

It's very possible I don't understand what you're suggesting here, but I did indicate that I would use the power supply wire that has the resister in line, but maybe that is not what you are talking about?

No, that's a separate thing. The resistor in series with 5v supply to the halls *should* limit the current sufficiently; it just depends on the sensitifivy of the parts used in there. If they're typical hall sensors, it rpobably won't be an isssue (you can lookup the datasheets for the SS41 / SS411 types to get an idea of what reverse current it can take on each pin combination; not all datasheets might show this but probably the old honeywell / allegromicro would).

But it doesn't provide the pullup for each hall signal that is required--in the controller there is a separate resistor (probably 1k-5k; too high a resistance allows too much noise, too low is too high a current in the hall signal pin) from 5v to each separate hall signal line. When a hall is not active, this keeps the signal line at 5v. When a hall is active, it grounds the signal line to nearly 0v (may read as high as 1v at the controller with all the noise/etc).

So what I was referring to there was how your test needs to be setup, with that pullup resistor on the signal line when you do the test on each one. This is a separate resistor from any current-limiting resistor that is in series with your 5v supply line.

This is a brand new wheel of very high quality, which is why I didn't simply trust AI before posting the suggestion here. I know for a fact AI makes mistakes, I use it for work sometimes, and at times it's on the mark and other times it's flat out wrong.

Yes...like putting two pedals on one crank over in this thread Just Got the DTTZH A12 – Finally Ditched My Junk Old Bike! Need Y’all’s Tips :lol:

You mentioned that opening the motor is unpractical, which it is for most people, maybe even me, but I assure you that unlacing the wheel is the least of my concerns, I've laced dozens of wheels, but I'd be much more concerned with damaging something trying to open it, if I even owned the puller required to do so, which I don't.

That's what I meant by impractical--you'd have to get the right tools, and work out the procedures for operning it (relatively easy, but you *can* break it; I have one here off an A2B someone broke doing that that is now a parts motor for me).

Bottom line here is, if I can't safely find a way to figure out the pin configuration, I'm likely to put the wheel back on the shelf until I get lucky and find that someone else has already figured it out first and shared that info. This leaves me wondering if contacting Strommer would work, maybe they'd be willing to just tell me what the story is.

I don't imagine you'll get any reply at all, but it can't hurt to ask.

You might even find the pinout in their manuals for the bikes this motor is used on, though that's a real longshot.

 

[rick_p]

As referenced but not directly stated in my post about the connector, Grin Tech uses this on their stuff, and they have a common pinout for it. It's in their manuals if not directly on the site.

A search on "L1019 pinout" finds a few images showing which pin is used for what; I didn't compare them to see if they all use the same one or not. I copied the first three here. You may be able to find more pinouts with the other two connector names you foudn for this type, or looking up specific motors or controllers that use them (like a2b, stromer, tdcm, ultramotor, etc) (I didn't check).
View attachment 377026 View attachment 377027 View attachment 377028 etc
There's also a bunch more connectors here

Ebike motor connectors

docs.google.com

if you ever need them (found this in the same search)

Wow, thank you so much!! I really did search several times and found nothing. I guess I was searching the wrong keywords or something. I think one search brought me to the Grin site, but I might have given up looking before finding the image on the page because I had already searched so much I had already lost faith of finding anything.

No, that's a separate thing. The resistor in series with 5v supply to the halls *should* limit the current sufficiently; it just depends on the sensitifivy of the parts used in there. If they're typical hall sensors, it rpobably won't be an isssue (you can lookup the datasheets for the SS41 / SS411 types to get an idea of what reverse current it can take on each pin combination; not all datasheets might show this but probably the old honeywell / allegromicro would).

But it doesn't provide the pullup for each hall signal that is required--in the controller there is a separate resistor (probably 1k-5k; too high a resistance allows too much noise, too low is too high a current in the hall signal pin) from 5v to each separate hall signal line. When a hall is not active, this keeps the signal line at 5v. When a hall is active, it grounds the signal line to nearly 0v (may read as high as 1v at the controller with all the noise/etc).

So what I was referring to there was how your test needs to be setup, with that pullup resistor on the signal line when you do the test on each one. This is a separate resistor from any current-limiting resistor that is in series with your 5v supply line.

I may have more questions about this later because I'm not sure I fully understand it all. In fact, I'm not sure if you're saying that it's not possible to safely test at all, or it is if you have the right set up and follow the right procedure.

That's what I meant by impractical--you'd have to get the right tools, and work out the procedures for opening it (relatively easy, but you *can* break it; I have one here off an A2B someone broke doing that that is now a parts motor for me).

We're on the same page. My fear of opening it is not from doubt about my skill set, it's all about not being tooled properly for the job, and also from reading a thread where someone opened an earlier model to inspect for water damage, and it broke the circuit board on the inside somehow.

I don't imagine you'll get any reply at all, but it can't hurt to ask.

Agree

You might even find the pinout in their manuals for the bikes this motor is used on, though that's a real longshot.

Given my inability to find any information last time, finding a manual for a bike this motor was used on seems like more than just a long shot.

 

[rick_p]

I compared the pin-out configurations in the various images that you found and they are all the same. And what I find interesting about this configuration is, in my resistance testing, what I was calling pins 2 and 4 would be power and ground respectively according to this configuration, and those are the pins are the ones that would start to show resistance and then go to OL. The other combination that would behave the same way were pins 4 and 5, which according to the configuration, would be ground and a Hall wire. What do you make of that?

 

[amberwolf]

I couldn't give any useful info about resistance-based testing. Without knowing what you're testing, and what pins, anything is a wild guess.

If you look up the datasheets for the usual hall sensors used, you might find off-state resistances listed, and the test conditions those were recorded with (so you can test the same way), and then you can draw yourself up a diagram of what ought to be in the motor and what resistances you ought to expect on each wire connected to the usual points in there.

If there is no data like that in the datasheets, then you can take an existing motor you already know the wiring for, and what parts are in it, and how they are wired up, and measure *those* resistances, and then put them on your drawing. Then measure your unknown motor, and see what, if anything, corresponds to those.

Not much need to test the phase pins as those are going to read a short circuit between all three with any common multimeter. You'd need something liked the DE5000 at minimum to measure an actual resistance for motor windings.

 

[amberwolf]

Given my inability to find any information last time, finding a manual for a bike this motor was used on seems like more than just a long shot.

You coudl start here Stromer: Speed Pedelecs for Commuters and see which ones have that motor / connector type, then start digging for manuals on that site and then elsewhere once you have bike names to look up.

 

[rick_p]

You could start here Stromer: Speed Pedelecs for Commuters and see which ones have that motor / connector type, then start digging for manuals on that site and then elsewhere once you have bike names to look up.

Thank you for the suggestion. That is where I started actually, and was able to determine that my wheel is from an ST5, but there are no manuals on that site that would provide the pin-out information we're looking for. I did some searching and found a site that sells parts, and there is a motor cable listed but the picture is so low resolution you can't glean any information from it, and the cable is sheathed, so you probably couldn't get the pin-out from it anyway. I'll keep searching but I have a feeling I'd have to get pretty lucky to find something on this specific wheel. With that said, I haven't tried reaching out to them, and there is also a Pedelecs forum I could join, post the question, and see if I get lucky. I think it was on that, or maybe another forum that I found a post where someone explains how to open these Syno motors without breaking anything. I don't have the required pullers, and it looks a little risky even with them, but maybe as a last resort I'd consider it.

 

[amberwolf]

This image off the stromer site (found by refferencing the p/n for the motor cable in the manual found there, attached to thsi post for reference) shows what shouoldb ethe connector that plugs into the motor. It doesn't hid the wiring, so youc an see whcih colors go where for some of the pins (not ver ywell, but...) and if they used common coloring (thy mgiht not've), it could help you figure out which pins those wires you can see go to and guess which signals are which so youc an start testing.

(there's rpobably better images or other data out there; this was all i found in a couple of minutes while i waited for a giant soundpack file to extract so I could keep messing around with my music)

Cable Motor SYNO Sport & SYNO Sport II

Das Cable Motor SYNO Sport & SYNO Sport II ist das zentrale Verbindungskabel für die leistungsstarken Stromer-Motoren der SYNO Sport- und SYNO Sport II-Serie. Es gewährleistet eine zuverlässige Energie- und Datenübertragung zwischen Motor und Controller und ist speziell für die hohen...

shop.stromer-bike.de

 

[rick_p]

This image off the stromer site (found by refferencing the p/n for the motor cable in the manual found there, attached to thsi post for reference) shows what shouoldb ethe connector that plugs into the motor. It doesn't hid the wiring, so youc an see whcih colors go where for some of the pins (not ver ywell, but...) and if they used common coloring (thy mgiht not've), it could help you figure out which pins those wires you can see go to and guess which signals are which so youc an start testing.

(there's rpobably better images or other data out there; this was all i found in a couple of minutes while i waited for a giant soundpack file to extract so I could keep messing around with my music)

Cable Motor SYNO Sport & SYNO Sport II

Das Cable Motor SYNO Sport & SYNO Sport II ist das zentrale Verbindungskabel für die leistungsstarken Stromer-Motoren der SYNO Sport- und SYNO Sport II-Serie. Es gewährleistet eine zuverlässige Energie- und Datenübertragung zwischen Motor und Controller und ist speziell für die hohen...

shop.stromer-bike.de

View attachment 377204

You are the master at finding hard to find information on the web, thank you for looking and sharing what you found. I had search returns on pages about the bikes on the main website, but no returns for the store site that you found. Well, not that I noticed anyway. I had a search return for this same cable on a third-party site, but the image was so low resolution I couldn't make anything out. This page you found has two pictures on it, and in one picture you can clearly make out the colors of the phase wires and two presumed hall wires (blue and green) adjacent to the phase wires. In the background there appears to be a purple wire, which is not a standard color for hall wires, but as you have pointed out before, there are no guarantees companies are going to follow "standards". I searched to try and find more images to hopefully get the ones not really visible in these two images, but no luck yet.

 

[amberwolf]

The A2B cable uses a purple wire; I forget what it was, but that info is probalby in my posts about wiring up the phaserunner to it in the SB Cruiser thread.

Regarding the wires not visible, it doesn't really matter too much--the main thing is to use the images with what is visible to see if it matches any of the wiring schemes already known from other sources. If it does, start testing based on that. If it doesn't, perhaps start testing based on what *can* be seen.