Ready to buy a mid drive, questions! Bafang-GNG-Cyclone

[Danschutz]

Im sure its been asked a million times...

Im ready to buy a kit but Ive researched so much that Im getting confused at this point. My basic needs is having a bike to go back and forth to work on (round trip 7 miles) but mostly a bike for recreational sense like riding around the bike paths with the wife and on occasion (10%) of the time some off road rides on the mountain.
I have an older Specialized rock hopper that I may use and Im looking at a 2008 Specialized FSR full suspension or a Kona Stinky.
I have a motorized bicycle and the longest journey Ive been on is 18.5 miles so I don't think I need a ton of ah. I want something that can go a little faster than 35 mph on occasion but I generally cruise at 27 to 32mph.

I first considered Sick bikes mid drive (cyclone) but its to noisy imo for riding along side my wifes DD bike.

Started to look at the Bafang 750watt but Ive read on ES that its not capable of handling 30mph for extended distances and Im not sure it has the oomph to climb trails for more than 5 minutes. What I like about it is how quiet it is! My questions about the Bafang. Paul wont have these till sometime in May and the new controller is supposed to be more stable at 25amps while the older controller goes to 29amps. Is that a bad thing? lol. More amps more power?

Then my attention turned towards the GNG 450watt Mid drive, then to username LR's modified version of the GNG.
What kind of speeds (gear dependent) could I expect out of LR's GNG? Im planning on buying a EM3EV battery and thinking of going with his 20R cells for the higher amp rating in 48v. Downside is the cost of his setup (no doubt a bargain) plus the cost of a CA and BMS is really stretching my budget but I believe in the buy once cry once so if its worth the extra Id do that.

Lastly Ive considered the Crystalyte HS3540 Hub kit. This looks really promising except for going up mountain trails with 48v of juice.

Ive read that mid drives require more maintenance but nobody really covers that topic. Can someone tell me the typical maintenance I would encounter?
What ah would you guys recommend for someone not riding more than 20 miles and even then I don't mind peddling on occasion.
Is it safe to use a battery that is rated no more than 30amp continuous for my needs? http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=123

Ive been lurking a while here! Thank you for any info you can give a noob!

Dan L.

 

[Wishes]

Im sure its been asked a million times...

Im ready to buy a kit but Ive researched so much that Im getting confused at this point. My basic needs is having a bike to go back and forth to work on (round trip 7 miles) but mostly a bike for recreational sense like riding around the bike paths with the wife and on occasion (10%) of the time some off road rides on the mountain.
I have an older Specialized rock hopper that I may use and Im looking at a 2008 Specialized FSR full suspension or a Kona Stinky.
I have a motorized bicycle and the longest journey Ive been on is 18.5 miles so I don't think I need a ton of ah. I want something that can go a little faster than 35 mph on occasion but I generally cruise at 27 to 32mph.

I first considered Sick bikes mid drive (cyclone) but its to noisy imo for riding along side my wifes DD bike.

Started to look at the Bafang 750watt but Ive read on ES that its not capable of handling 30mph for extended distances and Im not sure it has the oomph to climb trails for more than 5 minutes. What I like about it is how quiet it is! My questions about the Bafang. Paul wont have these till sometime in May and the new controller is supposed to be more stable at 25amps while the older controller goes to 29amps. Is that a bad thing? lol. More amps more power?

Then my attention turned towards the GNG 450watt Mid drive, then to username LR's modified version of the GNG.
What kind of speeds (gear dependent) could I expect out of LR's GNG? Im planning on buying a EM3EV battery and thinking of going with his 20R cells for the higher amp rating in 48v. Downside is the cost of his setup (no doubt a bargain) plus the cost of a CA and BMS is really stretching my budget but I believe in the buy once cry once so if its worth the extra Id do that.

Lastly Ive considered the Crystalyte HS3540 Hub kit. This looks really promising except for going up mountain trails with 48v of juice.

Ive read that mid drives require more maintenance but nobody really covers that topic. Can someone tell me the typical maintenance I would encounter?
What ah would you guys recommend for someone not riding more than 20 miles and even then I don't mind peddling on occasion.
Is it safe to use a battery that is rated no more than 30amp continuous for my needs? http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=123

Ive been lurking a while here! Thank you for any info you can give a noob!

Dan L.

Personally i'm bias to the LR upgraded GNG kit. I own 2 original gng kits that have been modified with all the parts he has released and love them.

That being said, the maintenance people refer too really applies to the bicycle part of the setup. Not the motor or electronics. Anytime you push power through a bicycle drive train, you are going to wear it out at a faster rate than from plain old human leg power.

If you are comfortable with basic bicycle mechanics, then don't let that scare you.

As for the battery current limit, that is really dictated by your choice of controller. Although some of them can be adjusted so you can match them with your battery, others cannot.

Wishes

 

[sculptingman]

I have a Bafang 750 with a 48v 11ah battery.

Total bike weighs in at 44 lbs and that's with a kickstand, rack and brooks flyer.

How fast the Bafang goes depends on your gearing. With an alfine 8 and an 18t rear cog I can climb a 20% grade in 1st or 2nd between 6 and 9 mph and I can do that till I run out of juice. ( that's throttle only - under pedal assist I can go up a 20% grade at 15 mph all day )
In 8th gear the Alfine yields 26- 27 mph... Motor alone on level ground... Faster if I'm pedaling...

But if I put a 16t cog on, it should go 30.

And if I switch to the Alfine 11, which has two gears well above the 8, it should go 40.

If you have a rear cassette, then you can experiment with differing gear ratios to achieve the speed you want.
But aside from some super heated monster motor... I think the Bafang 750 gives the ideal balance of power, low visual impact, and quiet operation.

 

[Danschutz]

Personally i'm bias to the LR upgraded GNG kit. I own 2 original gng kits that have been modified with all the parts he has released and love them.

That being said, the maintenance people refer too really applies to the bicycle part of the setup. Not the motor or electronics. Anytime you push power through a bicycle drive train, you are going to wear it out at a faster rate than from plain old human leg power.

If you are comfortable with basic bicycle mechanics, then don't let that scare you.

As for the battery current limit, that is really dictated by your choice of controller. Although some of them can be adjusted so you can match them with your battery, others cannot.

Wishes

[/quote]

Thank you for your reply!
Now if I choose a battery that can supply more continuous amps than the controller can handle that's not a bad thing right?
Also what types of speed are you seeing?
Lastly, your thread build was the first one I looked at but kinda dismissed because I wasn't looking for a mid drive at the time lol. It is a very good thread.

 

[Wishes]

Thank you for your reply!
Now if I choose a battery that can supply more continuous amps than the controller can handle that's not a bad thing right?
Also what types of speed are you seeing?
Lastly, your thread build was the first one I looked at but kinda dismissed because I wasn't looking for a mid drive at the time lol. It is a very good thread.

Thanks

As for the battery and current, no it is not a bad thing. It will mean you will not be running your battery at its maximum levels, those conditions help make them last longer. At worst they don't hurt.

As for speed, as sculptingman mentioned, speed has a lot to do with your gearing ratios. And with the LR gng kit, you have the additional option of playing with the primary and secondary motor gearing ratios that provides even more fine tuning. Then there is voltage input and amps that affect top speed.

With the LR kit, you can pick and choose your controller for voltage and amps you want. The motor runs well from 36v to 100v. And some will claim more. As long as you keep the amps to 40-45 max. You can easily go 50 kmh without pedaling.

But to be fair, the stock 48v gng kit is a 1000 watt and the 60v version is 1320 watts. If you get it from LR, you can custom choose the power levels and voltages you want to use with the selection of controller.





You can probably achieve that at

 

[teslanv]

I can get 30+ MPH with my Bafang BBS02 750W kit. I have no doubt LRs kit is capable of 40 mph or higher with the right combination of gearing, controller and voltage.

 

[Wishes]

I can get 30+ MPH with my Bafang BBS02 750W kit. I have no doubt LRs kit is capable of 40 mph or higher with the right combination of gearing, controller and voltage.

Yup that is why i said "to be fair", the gng and LR can be faster, but are also much higher power levels. I do not think I could hit 30 mph with the gng kit if it had only 750 watts, at least not with my current gearing. So that is pretty efficient.

Wishes

 

[Danschutz]

I have a Bafang 750 with a 48v 11ah battery.

Total bike weighs in at 44 lbs and that's with a kickstand, rack and brooks flyer.

How fast the Bafang goes depends on your gearing. With an alfine 8 and an 18t rear cog I can climb a 20% grade in 1st or 2nd between 6 and 9 mph and I can do that till I run out of juice. ( that's throttle only - under pedal assist I can go up a 20% grade at 15 mph all day )
In 8th gear the Alfine yields 26- 27 mph... Motor alone on level ground... Faster if I'm pedaling...

But if I put a 16t cog on, it should go 30.

And if I switch to the Alfine 11, which has two gears well above the 8, it should go 40.

If you have a rear cassette, then you can experiment with differing gear ratios to achieve the speed you want.
But aside from some super heated monster motor... I think the Bafang 750 gives the ideal balance of power, low visual impact, and quiet operation.

Im not sure if I read about this build or I remember you posting to someone about your mph and grades. I just don't remember if you said how long it could do it for lol.
The rear cassette on my old rock hopper has 9 gears from 11t to 32t what speeds could I get with those?
If you were me would you wait for the "new" Bafang 750 or just buy the old stock version. Also I talked with the fellow over at Lecreic bike and he said they have a new sprocket coming out for the Bafang I just cant find my notes on what size
Also Im looking at keeping my bike weight slim however I have an opportunity to buy a EM3EV 18.5ah battery with charger (the one with the switch) for just over 800.00 shipped. I consider this complete overkill for my situation would I be better off getting something in the 10ah range and saving the weight, extra cost etc?

 

[teslanv]

I can get 30+ MPH with my Bafang BBS02 750W kit. I have no doubt LRs kit is capable of 40 mph or higher with the right combination of gearing, controller and voltage.

Yup that is why i said "to be fair", the gng and LR can be faster, but are also much higher power levels. I do not think I could hit 30 mph with the gng kit if it had only 750 watts, at least not with my current gearing. So that is pretty efficient.

Wishes

Actually, at 50V and 25Amps I am pushing 1250 Watts to the motor. The 750Watt rating is a continuous rating, not max. You can't run the Bafang at 25A full time obviously, so sustained I can probably do 25mph over long distances on flat terrain.

 

[sculptingman]

As far as how long I can ride uphill... I don't know.

With the gear I bought from LectricCycle, I have yet to overheat the motor. And yet to run out of battery. I think its a well balanced battery motor combo in terms of drain.

To get from waterfront back to my house I climb 545 vertical feet over 1.2 miles... Some of its gentle, some of its steep... That last quarter mile is 20%... I have tried taking longer routes with a lot more up and down.... And ran it uphill for about 4 miles yesterday for a test.
No problems so far... But the bike was only finished about a week and a half ago. I'm still testing...trying out different sprockets to see how it affects hill climbing and top speed.

As far as speeds... Visit Sheldon browns site
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal.html

You plug in your wheel size, crank arm length, sprocket sizes and chainrings, and set it to 80rpm ( the bafang's top chainring speed ) and it should calculate the top speed you can achieve in each gear.

But keep in mind... If I ever find a hill so long and steep that the motor seems to be getting too warm... Or the battery draining to fast... I just select a lower gear, and maybe a lower pedal assist factor... And this motor battery combo seems to be fine.

The beauty if the BB motor is that it's using the gearing the same way you do... So it can keep turning at the same speed under the same load... Regardless of terrain.

If you are running a BB motor right... Going uphill should be no more load on the motor than going faster on level ground.

When you shift to super low on a human powered bike, your legs should turn at the same rate as when you are speeding downhill in high... And you should feel the same load on your legs. It's just in super low your legs are turning a way lot more revolutions to go the same distance.

Same with the BB drive. You have to think of the motor like you do your legs. The motor keeps turning at 60-80 rpm going uphill... It's just doing that to go all of 6 mph.

 

[Wishes]

Just out of curiosity, did you decide which one you are going with?


Wishes

 

[Danschutz]

Just out of curiosity, did you decide which one you are going with?


Wishes

Wishes, so many options I even posted a thread about buying a direct drive and got some even more confusing feedback. Apparently the Phoenix 2 hubs are no different than an eBay hub (still trying to wrap my head around that). Dogman and others were helpful in that thread and Dogman brought up a great point that it would probably be best to build a bike that does each task well.

I think if I could get at least 35mph out of a Gng using a 48v 40amp battery from Paul that would fit the bill. I'd really like to get one of LRs new kits but I think the backlog on orders would take months and I'm patient but the warm weather here is short and I don't want to build a ride and have a month to ride it lol.

So I'm glad you asked if I've made a choice because I wanted to ask you If I bought a stock gng what parts should I order from LR off the bat? The biggest drawback I see not ordering the complete kit from him is the shaft with the wider belt, that's the shaft that you kept bending? I guess I would need to order a new controller, something that would handle 40 watts and i could plug a V3 into.

In my research I've read many of your post and some of your threads, they have been very helpful. I apologize for not responding earlier but I've had a stomach bug the last couple days and crossing my fingers that it isn't my appendix! I really do appreciate your time.

Sculptingman, thanks for your input on the Bafang. In the end I don't think it will be enough power for me although I still like that it's quiet.

Dan L.

 

[Wishes]

Just out of curiosity, did you decide which one you are going with?


Wishes

Wishes, so many options I even posted a thread about buying a direct drive and got some even more confusing feedback. Apparently the Phoenix 2 hubs are no different than an eBay hub (still trying to wrap my head around that). Dogman and others were helpful in that thread and Dogman brought up a great point that it would probably be best to build a bike that does each task well.

I think if I could get at least 35mph out of a Gng using a 48v 40amp battery from Paul that would fit the bill. I'd really like to get one of LRs new kits but I think the backlog on orders would take months and I'm patient but the warm weather here is short and I don't want to build a ride and have a month to ride it lol.

So I'm glad you asked if I've made a choice because I wanted to ask you If I bought a stock gng what parts should I order from LR off the bat? The biggest drawback I see not ordering the complete kit from him is the shaft with the wider belt, that's the shaft that you kept bending? I guess I would need to order a new controller, something that would handle 40 watts and i could plug a V3 into.

In my research I've read many of your post and some of your threads, they have been very helpful. I apologize for not responding earlier but I've had a stomach bug the last couple days and crossing my fingers that it isn't my appendix! I really do appreciate your time.

Sculptingman, thanks for your input on the Bafang. In the end I don't think it will be enough power for me although I still like that it's quiet.

Dan L.

Someone in the gng thread posted that the 48 volt version now comes with the chain on it and no longer the belt. I have bought 2 gng kits from them directly. Both the 48v and the 60v version. When I bought mine, only the 60v version came with a chain, the 48v version came with a belt.

The one thing I can say about their chain version, it is loud as hell. So loud that I eventually removed the #219 chain on the primary reduction and changed out for #25 chain and sprocket. Which was not as loud. But still much louder than the belt version. Today I run LR's upgraded belt which is considerably more quiet.

But there is a catch, his belt upgrade only works with the stock 48v belt version of the GNG. He has no solution for he version that comes with a chain on the primary reduction stage. The shaft on that motor is not the same as on the 48v belt version and it is not possible to get a small pulley to fit and hold on that shaft.

Bottom line, if you buy a stock gng and get the chain version. It will be loud as hell and you will not be able to upgrade to LR's awesome belt. His motors come with a replaced motor shaft that enables you to use his belt and pulley upgrade. That is for the noise levels.

And the stock gng belt can barely handle and last under the stock power levels.

So that being said, if you want to go your 35 mph you definitely need to increase the amps to 40. But the stock belt version of the gng will not last long under those conditions. And the chain version will be loud as hell but you will not be able to upgrade that chain to a belt after. We you can, but that involves opening up the motor to replace the stock shaft with a longer one that can accommodate the upgraded pulley. LR posted a video on how to do that.

Now if both version come with the chain, then you don't need to worry about it lasting. It is loud but it holds. You can also easily modify the stock controller and push its amps to 35. That should enable you to hit your speed objectives with the stock setup. Then you can wait on LR's part to be available and upgrade at a later date. Also LR is back logged, but Lyen is shipping controllers already. So you could just buy the controller now to use on the stock "chain" version of the gng and upgrade to LR's parts as they become available.

His replacement upper and lower support brackets eliminates the need for tensioners on both the primary and secondary. Those tensioners are a big source of the noise. I do believe he has those in stock already.

Wishes

 

[wormsman]

I own both GNG 450w chain version with L Rods mods kit on primary T8F chain and the Bafang 750w with my custom adaptor and a 36T front chain ring. Both are a fun to ride.The GNG has far less heat build up going up the same trails I take the bafang motor. However it is more noiser, heavier and more maintenance is required .From what I understand 8fun are having trouble with their controllers and the guy i have brought 4 motors from is no longer is interested in dealing with the returns from other buyers so he is given up on selling them and has said to me he can no longer get them both a 500w and 750w versions. Personally i have had one bafang fail, the fets fried them selves due to heat thermal did not cut out to protect the controller. It seems after replacement of fets its running fine. I have unlocked 9 levels of pedal assist and in each level it seems to under full throddle only deliver that level of power limiting the current in each level. It seems now I know this I just stop after steep climbs and monitor the temp as it can spike very quickly. Both have had there share of problems and there own pros and cons.

 

[Danschutz]

Wishes, thanks again for your insight, you are a great spokesperson (along with some other incredible folks here) for this hobby sir.

I find myself re-evaluating my needs over and again. I took my pup and grand daughter for a walk in the area that I'll be riding some trails on (pic below) and something occurred to me. I need something quiet for sure. Now this won't be the only place I ride but there are miles of trails here and it's about a mile from my house. Some other trails that I'll be riding is up on the mountain (more inclines) but I'll have to pack the bike in the truck as there's no way any ebike is making that long climb.

I read a little blip from another respected member here that said in the near future there will be a Mac mid drive unit that will blow the gng away. It will be based off a Mac hub drive and it sounds impressive.



I wish I knew how loud the LR kit (with belt) is without knowing I will have to assume its to loud for trails in the picture. So here's my plan as of a minute ago lol. Go with a dd for now probably keep it around 48v 40amp and plan to use that one battery between the dd and the mid drive.

A couple of important questions for you.
I understand that a 72v 40amp battery, correct controller and wheel can get me up past the 40mph mark which really isn't that important to me now but will that set up be faster and have more torque from a start than a 48v 40amp set up?

Also how much louder is a belt driven gng compared to a brushless dd?

And while I have your ear.....the batteries I'm looking at from em3ev are all around 10 or less ah that can put out 40-50amps continuous. Can I hammer that battery at 40amps for 15 to 20 minutes at a time without shortening its life?

Dan L.

 

[Danschutz]

How sure am I about my plan? I just pm-ed LR about his kit lol.

Oh Wishes I forgot a question.

I've read here and there that the dropouts and sometimes the swing arm on full suspension bikes can't handle the power of a dd. Any thoughts? The fs I'm considering is a mid 2000 kona stinky.

Dan L.

 

[Wishes]

How sure am I about my plan? I just pm-ed LR about his kit lol.

Oh Wishes I forgot a question.

I've read here and there that the dropouts and sometimes the swing arm on full suspension bikes can't handle the power of a dd. Any thoughts? The fs I'm considering is a mid 2000 kona stinky.

Dan L.

Hmmm, I think you are confusing Hub motors and mid drives. The issue you are referring too with full suspension bikes is with Hub motors. Often the dropout of the FS bikes are very weak. On the derailleur side they are made with an aluminum hanger part that bolts on the swing arm and holds the derailleur. Unfortunately that same aluminum hanger is also what supports the flat on the shaft bolt of a Hub motor. That flat part of the bolt is where all the torque gets applied on the hub motor. And these aluminum hanger pieces are not solid enough and they spread.

But for mid drives, the swing arms and drop outs have no impact. I put my gng on a Kona Stinky Deluxe 2006. But because of how the drop out is built, I could not put a powerful Hub motor on this bike.

Wishes

 

[wormsman]

If you can find a nice bike with a bb shell width of 68mm for your requirements I would suggest a 500w bbso2 with front chain ring reduction to 34t or similar would be perfect.

 

[Samd]

I've ridden several 750W BBS02 and I'm completely underwhelmed with the throttle burst (or lack of it). If you want a smooth cruise go for it.

I normally ride a Bafang code 10 rear hub offroad at 63V 2Kw though. Twitchy throttle response desired and achieved.
How much torque do you want to generate?

 

[wormsman]

Bbso2 are bit a gutless but nice and smooth and are really a pedal assist type setup ,good if u still want a little exersise :wink:

 

[Danschutz]

Bbso2 are bit a gutless but nice and smooth and are really a pedal assist type setup ,good if u still want a little exersise :wink:

I try to ride my peddle bike 11miles a day when the weather permits, it's pretty fast and doesn't take long, got to keep the heart rate and my Dr. Happy! As much time as I spent looking at the Bafang I know I'll need more power.

I've ridden several 750W BBS02 and I'm completely underwhelmed with the throttle burst (or lack of it). If you want a smooth cruise go for it.

I normally ride a Bafang code 10 rear hub offroad at 63V 2Kw though. Twitchy throttle response desired and achieved.
How much torque do you want to generate?

Torque, the magical question lol. Torque is where 80% of the fun is IMO and it's something I'm trying really hard to sort through. Wishes has been graciously answering my Pm's and I'm getting it sorted. I'd like to run 40 amps through the LR GNG but to do that with a pre made battery I'd need about 50 continuous amps so I don't harm the battery and to keep weight down the battery I'm looking at is only 9.7 ah. If I try and protect the battery life and only charge it 90% and only discharge to 10% that doesn't leave much ah's!

I would like to be able to baby it around maybe average 20mph for 20 miles and I'm pretty sure 7.8 ah's won't get me there. So, I might go with a 40amp continuous battery (16ah) and set my controller up for 35amps but I'm not sure if it will fetch me speeds of the occasional 35mph and maybe I'll lose to much torque.

Dan L.

 

[Samd]

Are you climbing lots of lengthy hills? if not, a code ten BPM might be for you.

 

[Danschutz]

Are you climbing lots of lengthy hills? if not, a code ten BPM might be for you.

I've looked at the Mac stuff a little, wasn't what I was looking for. If I remember the Bafang and Mac get compared quite a bit.

 

[vance]

I have a 48v chain drive version that I am using with a Lyen 9 fet set to 30 amps. My battery is an ncm type 15ah and 54.9v hot off the charger. Max draw of 33.5 ams for about 1500 watts peak. I use a 12t top gear with the stock gng gearing and have achived 59km/hr(38mph) and can cruise at 50km/hr all day, but peddling above 33(22mph) is impossible. Very efficient at about 8wh/km. This is my first ebike and I have put over 1000km on it now. This set up is a blast to drive in my city and on light trails., and flies up most hills in top gear, in fact I start off in top gear too. The acceleration has been described as assertive. I too , like some here, are awaiting LR's fix for the loud chain noise and a better guard on the primary. I also plan to quickly upgrade both the freewheels and switch to an isis set up so I can eventually switch to a 72v/40a set up.

Vance

 

[Hasaf]

Personally i'm bias to the LR upgraded GNG kit. I own 2 original gng kits that have been modified with all the parts he has released and love them.

That being said, the maintenance people refer too really applies to the bicycle part of the setup. Not the motor or electronics. Anytime you push power through a bicycle drive train, you are going to wear it out at a faster rate than from plain old human leg power.

If you are comfortable with basic bicycle mechanics, then don't let that scare you.

As for the battery current limit, that is really dictated by your choice of controller. Although some of them can be adjusted so you can match them with your battery, others cannot.

Wishes

Is there a clear parts list with what parts are needed, and where to get them, for the GNG motors?

I am looking at putting together a mid drive for commuting and my priorities are reliability and low maintenance, after that is range. Last for me is raw speed. I am thinking of a mid-drive and a nuvinci rear hub. I was thinking of the Bfang, then I started hearing of burnt out controllers. The Cyclone looks like the mounting system will be a continual hassle. The GNG has a long thread of people trying to get them to work; so far it looks like to bet one to work I will need a complete machine shop w/milling machines.

I don't want to go with a hub drive because the bike I want to use has an aluminum frame, the other relies on an internal gear hub.

Are any of these systems ready for daily use?