grindz145
1 MW
Wow only 30 bucks, thats really freaking good. Lipo really deserves more than a soft case
Recumbent BikeE for Comfort and Efficiency
- Thread starter Alan B
- Start date
StudEbiker
100 kW
I am fairly certain that the front chainring is 110mm bcd, not 130.
Alan B
100 GW
OK on the chainring, I was going by a website on that, not a measurement. I'll measure it. There are variations between models on a number of items, so it might be right for some other model.
Alan B
100 GW
The SE-300 case weights about 2.5 pounds empty.
Loaded with six 6S 8AH Zippy batteries it weighs about 19.5 pounds, so figure about 20 pounds with the wiring. Very close to three pounds per battery. Not quite as light as duct taping them to the bike frame.
Alan B
100 GW
A 2 pound case is too heavy for an 18 pound battery? This battery doesn't feel light!
This is post #2500 for me! Amazing!
This is post #2500 for me! Amazing!
Alan B
100 GW
I ordered the wire for the battery wiring. I have the connectors. The interconnections are made by crimping four wires into the PowerPole 75 amp 6 gauge pins. These pins will take four 12 gauge wires very nicely. No soldering required. Three of the four connections go to batteries, the fourth goes to a bank charging connection so each 6S bank can be individually charged with a 6S RC charger that I already have.
Unfortunately I never got around to getting the 12 gauge silicon wire so that is on order but will delay the project a few days.
I still need to come up with a nice mounting scheme for the cases and controller. I could use the wood rack that I made temporarily but would like to come up with something a bit nicer for long term.
Edit - updated the diagram from the 18S shown before to the 12S appropriate for this thread.
ryan
10 kW
It's great to see how a professional diagrams a setup. I've got so much to learn.
What fuse are you using? Would you recommend it for my setup?
Also, can you clarify your precharge setup? Which Resistor?
What fuse are you using? Would you recommend it for my setup?
Also, can you clarify your precharge setup? Which Resistor?
Alan B
100 GW
Fuses are a really good idea. Seems like my maxifuse holders aren't as big as Ryans, but they do take space. Not sure which I'll use here yet. I have some others:
You can bolt onto these fuses with flexible wire, and then heatshrink over them. Mouser or Digikey had them, they are electric vehicle fuses. Not cheap but not terribly expensive. They are bigger than maxifuses but not needing a holder helps some. I also think that bolting to a maxifuse might be a better way to use them. More on that theme to follow.
How about this:
Drill a #10 hole in each lug of a maxifuse. Use two wires and two ring lugs bolted to each maxifuse lug. One ring lug on each side to get maximum surface contact area. Then join the two wires into the bullet, so the two wires are in parallel. Use two #10's or #12's on each side of the maxifuse. Use a brass #10 screw or bolt to bolt them together to improve the conductivity, though most current will go wire to ring lug to fuse lug anyway. I suspect that would be adequate for 50 amps, but try it and then check to see if the connections get hot. If they stay warm or cooler then it passes!
I have also used fusible link wire on systems like these. Make up a short fusible link section with ring lugs on the ends, or perhaps bullets or whatever connector fits your setup. Maybe put some clear silicon high temperature tubing over the fusible wire in case it melts to try to keep it from the batteries and other vulnerable bits.
You can bolt onto these fuses with flexible wire, and then heatshrink over them. Mouser or Digikey had them, they are electric vehicle fuses. Not cheap but not terribly expensive. They are bigger than maxifuses but not needing a holder helps some. I also think that bolting to a maxifuse might be a better way to use them. More on that theme to follow.
How about this:
Drill a #10 hole in each lug of a maxifuse. Use two wires and two ring lugs bolted to each maxifuse lug. One ring lug on each side to get maximum surface contact area. Then join the two wires into the bullet, so the two wires are in parallel. Use two #10's or #12's on each side of the maxifuse. Use a brass #10 screw or bolt to bolt them together to improve the conductivity, though most current will go wire to ring lug to fuse lug anyway. I suspect that would be adequate for 50 amps, but try it and then check to see if the connections get hot. If they stay warm or cooler then it passes!
I have also used fusible link wire on systems like these. Make up a short fusible link section with ring lugs on the ends, or perhaps bullets or whatever connector fits your setup. Maybe put some clear silicon high temperature tubing over the fusible wire in case it melts to try to keep it from the batteries and other vulnerable bits.
Alan B
100 GW
I measured the bolt hole spacing on the front chainring to be 64.7mm. Multiply that by 1.7 to get 110mm bolt circle diameter.
So 110mm it is, not 130. The Schlumpf speed drive I have is the same.
So 110mm it is, not 130. The Schlumpf speed drive I have is the same.
Alan B
100 GW
Thanks Will. I'm looking forward to some longer rides with it when I get the batteries sorted out. Hopefully it will be good for 100 mile rides.
Alan B
100 GW
Ryan asked about the precharge resistor. Since the capacitors appear as a short initially we can control the initial current with the precharge resistor and calculate the initial current. Since we have a roughly 50 volt system here, a 50 ohm resistor would limit the current to 1 amp. 500 ohms would be 0.1 amps. I would expect anything over 50 ohms would be fine. The one I used on my 18S setup is 100 ohms 10 watts. This will limit the initial current to one amp or less on any system up to 100 volts.
I updated the drawing above to 12S for this application.
I updated the drawing above to 12S for this application.
Alan B
100 GW
Test Ride
Glorious weather today. Sunny and nice!
4.15 miles
1.53 amp hours
46 volts
70.4 watt hours
17.0 watt hours per mile
The terrain for this ride was rolling hills from the house to a major intersection. None of it is level. Pedaled some, not enough to make much difference in energy consumption. Speed was 15-20 mph.
I've done this loop before. I would have to dig up the numbers, they must be in another thread here, but this consumption seems a lot lower than the 9C on the mountain bike. Some of that may be the low speed, but this included a 20 mph run uphill, so it wasn't just loafing.
I really need to get the mirror mounted! It is difficult for me to get used to riding a recumbent. Car drivers give me a wider berth for some reason.
Energy consumption looks great! This would have been good enough for the 100 mile ride!
Glorious weather today. Sunny and nice!
4.15 miles
1.53 amp hours
46 volts
70.4 watt hours
17.0 watt hours per mile
The terrain for this ride was rolling hills from the house to a major intersection. None of it is level. Pedaled some, not enough to make much difference in energy consumption. Speed was 15-20 mph.
I've done this loop before. I would have to dig up the numbers, they must be in another thread here, but this consumption seems a lot lower than the 9C on the mountain bike. Some of that may be the low speed, but this included a 20 mph run uphill, so it wasn't just loafing.
I really need to get the mirror mounted! It is difficult for me to get used to riding a recumbent. Car drivers give me a wider berth for some reason.
Energy consumption looks great! This would have been good enough for the 100 mile ride!
Alan B
100 GW
Looked up the similar test run made with the 9C 9x7 on the Mountain bike, and it used 26 watt hours per mile.
This compares to 17 watt hours per mile with the BMC V4C on the 'bent.
Amazing.
I suspect my average speed with the mountain bike was higher than the ebikeE, but the efficiency difference is too large to be accounted for by minor speed difference.
This geared hubmotor on this bike is quite efficient!
This compares to 17 watt hours per mile with the BMC V4C on the 'bent.
Amazing.
I suspect my average speed with the mountain bike was higher than the ebikeE, but the efficiency difference is too large to be accounted for by minor speed difference.
This geared hubmotor on this bike is quite efficient!
Alan B
100 GW
Tightening the Headset
I removed the stem/steering column by loosening the clamping screw and slid it off. Underneath there is a split tube spacer from the steerer tube cap to the upper headset. There is a hex bolt holding the cap down, and it was loose. I snugged it down and the headset free play was gone, and the headset turned freely. So I reinstalled the stem and went for a test drive.
The feeling of looseness in the steering is gone, so it is definitely an improvement. It still steers quickly but feels more confident.
I removed the stem/steering column by loosening the clamping screw and slid it off. Underneath there is a split tube spacer from the steerer tube cap to the upper headset. There is a hex bolt holding the cap down, and it was loose. I snugged it down and the headset free play was gone, and the headset turned freely. So I reinstalled the stem and went for a test drive.
The feeling of looseness in the steering is gone, so it is definitely an improvement. It still steers quickly but feels more confident.
10 kW
Alan B said:Looked up the similar test run made with the 9C 9x7 on the Mountain bike, and it used 26 watt hours per mile.
This compares to 17 watt hours per mile with the BMC V4C on the 'bent.
Amazing.
I suspect my average speed with the mountain bike was higher than the ebikeE, but the efficiency difference is too large to be accounted for by minor speed difference.
This geared hubmotor on this bike is quite efficient!
I am using a 9c 2810 at 18s LiPO on a mtn bike. Even going slightly uphill (There are some pretty significant climbs but also some valleys. The net result is slightly uphill), I use about 18 Wh/mi. The 9x7 would probably be less efficient on the hills if not kept up to speed but 26 Whr/mi seems much higher than any other numbers I've seen quoted. We built a 450 lb (including driver) electric "car" (actually a BugE, which is a 3 wheel tadpole motorcycle) with a brushed motor and if you keep your foot out of it, you can do 40-50 Whr/mi routinely, even with a modest grade. Does anyone else have some numbers for reference?
Alan B
100 GW
Interesting. I have a couple other sets of numbers. The 9C 2807 has been on two mountain bikes, the 2810 took its place on the newer bike. Rider is about 200 pounds in one case, 150 in the other.
My work commute of 13 miles with 9C 2810 at 18S on a mountain bike uses about 35 watt hours per mile on the inbound, and about 25 watt hours per mile on the homebound trip with light pedaling. There are a lot of hills including some 10% on this route (and I pedal hard on the steep stuff and lightly at most other times). Well over 1,000 feet of vertical on this trip and some of that done twice. My experience is that anything under 20 watt hours per mile is very efficient, or it is flat and/or slow.
My son with 9C 2807 gets about 25 watt hours per mile on the test route (plus a bit further) where he was commuting for weeks when he was doing seasonal work at the shopping center. There are a couple hundred feet of vertical done twice over during each direction, so this is not flat but it is not steep, perhaps 5% at worst, but very little of it is level.
You are doing well to get below 20 watt hours per mile with the 9C. Good job! Do you pedal a lot? What is your average and peak powered speed?
My son doesn't pedal much, so his numbers are fully electric, mostly full throttle with the CA set for 20mph max. Some traffic, a few stop signs and lights and narrow littered bike lanes to navigate. He gets 30 miles range on a 10S 20AH Lipo pack which I think is fairly typical for 20 mph on a mountain bike (and is 25 watt hours per mile).
My work commute of 13 miles with 9C 2810 at 18S on a mountain bike uses about 35 watt hours per mile on the inbound, and about 25 watt hours per mile on the homebound trip with light pedaling. There are a lot of hills including some 10% on this route (and I pedal hard on the steep stuff and lightly at most other times). Well over 1,000 feet of vertical on this trip and some of that done twice. My experience is that anything under 20 watt hours per mile is very efficient, or it is flat and/or slow.
My son with 9C 2807 gets about 25 watt hours per mile on the test route (plus a bit further) where he was commuting for weeks when he was doing seasonal work at the shopping center. There are a couple hundred feet of vertical done twice over during each direction, so this is not flat but it is not steep, perhaps 5% at worst, but very little of it is level.
You are doing well to get below 20 watt hours per mile with the 9C. Good job! Do you pedal a lot? What is your average and peak powered speed?
My son doesn't pedal much, so his numbers are fully electric, mostly full throttle with the CA set for 20mph max. Some traffic, a few stop signs and lights and narrow littered bike lanes to navigate. He gets 30 miles range on a 10S 20AH Lipo pack which I think is fairly typical for 20 mph on a mountain bike (and is 25 watt hours per mile).
10 kW
Alan B said:
Weird. Not sure what the difference it. I can do a 14 mile round trip on a 5 Ahr 18s LiPO on that bike. When I charge it, it looks like I am putting about 4 Amp-hr back in it. Will pay more attention next time and be sure. Also, will look at watt-hr instead of current-hr on the charger if that is an option (I don't think it is though). Anyway, this is with essentially no pedaling, some short 15-20% grades, some (maybe half a mile) 5-10% grade. I do a round trip so I get the benefit of going downhill one way and up the other, so the net elevation change is 0.
Only difference I can see would be maybe my CA is not calibrated correctly for the controller I am using (it is a DP CA with a Lyen controller). I wrote Lyen to ask about what to use for the resistor calibration and used whatever he suggested (don't remember what it was though). I should point out that the rider weight in these cases is 165 lbs and that I usually ride on a Greenway for half the trip where 20 mph is the top speed most of the time. The Whr/mi is pretty sensitive to speed on hills so that is probably the biggest difference. Even off the Greenway, I usually stick to a top speed of around 20 mph to stay "legal". I am pedaling all the time but I know I am not contributing much because if I look at the current/power while pedaling and then stop, it changes very little.
Alan B
100 GW
My experience has been that calibration is required to get accurate numbers.
Alan B
100 GW
I've been looking at packing the batteries into the Searhorse case shown above. My earlier plan of using PowerPole 75's with #6 AWG pins to crimp quad #12 wires may be difficult to fit in the limited space of the Seahorse case. So this weekend I'm going to look for some #6 butt crimp tubes that could perform that role in less space.
I should check the CA calibration, the bike shop indicated they calibrated it but I don't know to what accuracy.
I should check the CA calibration, the bike shop indicated they calibrated it but I don't know to what accuracy.
Alan B
100 GW
Have to work on plumbing today..
Any suggestions for upgrading the brakes on this bike? V brakes, no mounts for disc. Are the stock ones decent or should I look for something better? At least for the front??
Any suggestions for upgrading the brakes on this bike? V brakes, no mounts for disc. Are the stock ones decent or should I look for something better? At least for the front??
StudEbiker
100 kW
There's this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIKE-E-FORK-grey-NEW-Cro-Molly-fork-16-threadless-/120830029769?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c2207efc9
Or this: http://www.cycleclubsports.com/p-36942-sturmey-archer-xl-fd-front-drum-hub-36h.aspx
Someday I plan to upgrade to the front hub brake.
Or this: http://www.cycleclubsports.com/p-36942-sturmey-archer-xl-fd-front-drum-hub-36h.aspx
Someday I plan to upgrade to the front hub brake.
StudEbiker
100 kW
Another option is Magura hydraulic rim brakes. If I could find a set at a good price, that would be my first choice, but with the odd geometry of the Bike E front fork I would like to know if they will work for sure before I bought a set.
Alan B
100 GW
Finally got the plumbing done.
I take it by these suggestions that the stock brakes are a bit weak. That's my impression so far, but I haven't done any big descents yet with mine. Are they up to it? Or do I need to upgrade first??
The bikeE steerer tube may be 1-1/4", isn't it?
How do the drums compare to disc?
Since it is a steel fork I suppose a disc mount could be welded on.
The Shimano XTR V Brakes I put on my Mountain bike are pretty nice. Not sure if they would fit on the bikeE, but they might.
I take it by these suggestions that the stock brakes are a bit weak. That's my impression so far, but I haven't done any big descents yet with mine. Are they up to it? Or do I need to upgrade first??
The bikeE steerer tube may be 1-1/4", isn't it?
How do the drums compare to disc?
Since it is a steel fork I suppose a disc mount could be welded on.
The Shimano XTR V Brakes I put on my Mountain bike are pretty nice. Not sure if they would fit on the bikeE, but they might.
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