Replacing a 48v 1000w brushless Direct Drive motor

[Ltc433]

Hey all,

Im reposting this as I put the other post in the wrong forum.

I have a Cyclotricity 48V 1000W brushless direct drive motor. It is great when it has power but if I turn it off the cogging is bad. I don't think it's damaged but is there any way to test how much cogging it should have? Anyway i;ve got 48v 11ah and I am going to upgrade the battery to a 48 17ah or 48 20ah for range. However the main point is that I only use it in it's 250watt mode anyway. So I'd like to get a new motor/controller/battery. So what's the best and cost is no issue at all. I'm not interested in power, per se, as I never use it at 1000w but I do haul a trailer sometimes. I've looked at golden motors but have no experience with them. Crystalite? Mac? What should I buy? I'm interested in range and top speed. Don't do any hills really so no mid drive as I like the direct drive no pedalling for power somtimes etc.

Desired max speed on level ground. mph or kph
25 mph
Desired max range at what cruising speed. mph or kph
40-60 miles? More if possible

Preferred bike wheel size, or wheel size of bike you want to convert. Most common kits are for 26" wheels.
29er

Brake type of motor wheel. Disc or not.
disc hydraulics

Rider weight.
80kg


Terrain. Exp: mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade, I want to climb mountains, etc., etc.
Mostly Flat

Budget.
unlimited

Tia

 

[dogman dan]

Ahh,, here is your thread. I see why you PM'd me, not much response.

Asking questions right is hard, if you don't have the background info in the first place. I had to read the forum here for 3 months before I had a clue about anything.

Anyway,, re your last pm,, you were asking about your current setup, that runs on 250w or 1000w. Does this setup have a throttle, or is it just PAS?

If it has a throttle, and no pas, then you can leave it in 1000w mode, and just learn to ride it efficiently. It does take some time,, if you have big power there, it does get difficult to stay in a lower power, lower speed mode.

If it has no throttle, then maybe your first purchase needs to be a Grin controller, and a CA for the display. With a DP CA on board, you can make quick adjustments to power levels, speed limits, etc. With a different controller, you could also power up that motor you have, to more like 1500w max, when you need that. Or,, just a controller and display that does allow more power levels to choose from on the fly. Most kits now days offer that.

Here is how I do it, pick an efficient speed. For me, I like 15-18 mph when I'm hypermiling. You can ride even slower, and get even bigger % of the total from your legs only, but I just find it a bit boring. Especially for 50+ miles. It just takes too long below 15 mph.

Ok, next pick the correct gear for your legs, at that speed. I like a high cadence, even if not really needed. Not too high, but not a 50 rpm at all. 80-90 rpm good for my legs. Get going with lots of throttle, its why you got the motor after all,, then back off till you feel good, at the target cadence. You want to feel good pressure on your feet, but not get more winded that you like to. Now you are in the butter zone, where you are not killing yourself, but not just riding the motor and flapping your feet uselessly. Your motor is happy as a pig in shit, in its more efficient rpm, and your CA should be showing well under 400w. Quite likely you can pull only 200w if you are strong. Your legs are working, but not building up lactic acid, so you can keep this up all day long.

But once you need it for a hill, there is no way you avoid using the battery. If you are climbing a mountain with a trailer full of camping gear, you will be pulling 1500w at least to get up it. Splitting that load between two motors works a charm, so get a geared motor on the front wheel, that runs only when you need it.

One of the catch 22's of e bike camping is that your gear makes you use more power to get up hills, which makes you carry extra batteries that weigh more, making you use even more power up hills. Worse still, if like me, you go places where there is no water. Now you need to carry 15 pounds of water up the mountain.

For expeditions, I find about 1500 to 2000 watt hours of battery is what you need. Very pricy to keep that much battery around, fresh and working good.

You can get by with a lot less though, if you are not an old fart like me. But that is just back to suffering on bikes, like I did in my youth. Fine if you dig that, leave the motor at home for that.


Lastly, you asked about wheel size. 20" for climbing moutains, if the roads are paved. The bike I just lost in the fire was ideal, 26" front wheel, 20" in back with a DD motor. The 20" wheel made the same motor much more efficient on hills than the same motor in 26".


But if I replace that burned bike,, it will be a mid drive. With perhaps a front geared motor to help it up the worst hills.

 

[Voltron]

Are you sure you don't want a mid drive? Because it sounds like one would do what you want.

Not sure what you meant about direct drive no pedaling for power sometimes, but if you meant mid drives being pedal activated, like PAS, you can use a throttle on mid drives too just like a hub.

They have a lot of pluses in a mid power set up, like easy wheel size selection, easy flat fixing, whatever on brakes as it uses normal bike parts, gearing down for when you want to haul a trailer, etc. They just chew thru the gears and chain used​ at high power a lot.

That's all said as a hardcore hub motor guy, but as soon as you say you like pedaling with no power, and like moderate power levels, and you want to do mountains sometime, and maybe 29er wheels, that sounds​ like mid drive territory.

 

[Ltc433]

Hi,

So I talked to the manufacturer and they were really helpful. The bike can go from 250-1000w but I only had it in 250w. That was the first problem. I thought I was overdoing it, in fact I was completely underdoing it. I switched to 1000w mode which now allows me to select what wattage via PAS (and throttle). This helps a lot as now when I need more power I just up the PAS to about 300-400w. My mistake was thinking it was in 1000w all the time and not variable.

I have an LCD with 5 pas levels, mph etc but it was pointless in 250w mode as I just had it on 5 all the time. Now in 1000w mode, I switch PAS to whatever assistance i need now. ie PAS 2 is 250w and Pas 3 is 300-400w.
I am going to get a grin controller and CA so I can really see whats going on with the battery etc.

I can do about 15-20 miles but I've been charging and using my bike incorrectly (after talking to the manufacturer). So I discharged it etc and recharged it and it seems to have longer range now.

With hypermiling and cadence it's exactly what I already do, my speed is about 18-20mph and I bought new freewheels previously to hit the exact sweet spot, which I now have. Thanks for the detail I can't wait to get the CA to see whats going on

I did exactly what you said today, saw a hill, upped the power and just went over.

Im thinking of a 48v 30-40ah battery in addition to my own 48v 11ah. As for motor I may stick with this one as now I've put it in 1000w mode it's going great at about 250 and sometimes at 300-400w. I >may< go for a crystalyte crown but it may be overkilll, however it's probably a lot better engineered that my current motor thoguh at 9kg its 3kg heavier than mine (at 6kg)

With regards to a middrive:

I've tried the best mid drives and the problems for me are: drivetrain wear, power proportional to amount of pressure you put on the pedals. I have a throttle but don't use it as the hub motor kicks in when I pedal with zero effort if I want and I like it like that as I can absolutely cycle like mad when I need to.

I dont like to climb mountains and never said that I do haul a trailer but its easy city stuff do no big deal there.

Oh and I have another road bike that i will either mid drive or mac motor geared hub as that's more for recreation and long distance.

 

[Voltron]

Maybe that's a typo then where you wrote " I want to climb mountains " .

 

[dogman dan]

I said mountain with a trailer. Some how I got that idea in your PM's, that you maybe wanted to go camping in the mountains. I often read shit too fast, and then sometimes misunderstand.

In any case, that's the worst case scenario, so I do tend to talk about that if somebody even mentions trailer. Once you have the motor and trailer, a trip to the mountains often pops into peoples minds. Perhaps I should stop talking like that, but I live near mountains, and even short hills with a heavy enough bike can burn up a 500w rated motor. Your setup, as is, can handle 5% grades with 350 pounds fine. that's you, the bike, the trailer, the motor, the battery, and the trailer cargo. By 400 pounds, you will want a bigger motor, or two, for hills 5% or steeper.

Sounds like you have a better way to use your current setup sorted out. Great! for any kind of normal rider under 250 pounds, riding streets anywhere but San Francisco, your current setup is all you need.

But start using that power, your battery does get used up fast. Packing 1000wh is all most people will ever need. 48v 20 ah. Riding hypermile, easily 40-50 miles range. Hills may not cut your range that much, if you get to go down just as much vertical on the other side. Hitting 2 miles per ah should be easy.

But if you want to go really far, you get into a bit of a catch 22 of how to carry a big battery. Sure, you can fill up some panniers with 20 ah on each side, but most bikes handling will get funny at that point.

This is why I went to cargo bikes. They can carry 40 ah with ease.

 

[Voltron]

"Terrain. Exp: mostly flat, some short hills under 20% grade, I want to climb mountains, etc., etc.
Mostly Flat

Budget.
unlimited

Tia"


...thats the last few lines from the first post, but like I said, prob a typo, or maybe he was pasting you or something.