Hub mid-drive dual motor combos

[ebike4healthandfitness]

How much does it cost?

It's hard finding the hub outside of pre-built bikes but these guys told me in an email today the price is $369 plus $70 shipping and $10 alibaba fee:

Electric Bikes, Ebike Frame, Ebike Motor, Ebike Battery, Ebike conversion Kit – Joyebikes

Joyebikes is a professional leader China Electric Bikes, Ebike Frame, Ebike Motor manufacturer with high quality and reasonable price. Welcome to contact us.

www.joyebikes.com

Not sure why there is an alibaba fee when I inquired directly to the website? (It is sold on Alibaba by joyebikes and that is how I found out they sold it....but on Alibaba the listing says I must by two hubs and the shipping is very expensive for some reason)

 

[hillslayer@]

I been running a 42 t chainring on the BBSO2 and am finding out I don't have to ever shift out of the 14 t cog I think I will have to see if the 46 t fits or just say screw the chain line and run a 52 t on the outside of my adapter. The sub $200 DD 1500 watt hub is amazing how fast it goes on 48 volts and pulls hills at speed with help of the mid-drive.
.

 

[Lectriceye]

How much do you weigh?

My bike and I weigh 300 lbs: bike 80s lb, me 220 lbs

 

[yantra yatra]

I been running a 42 t chainring on the BBSO2 and am finding out I don't have to ever shift out of the 14 t cog I think I will have to see if the 46 t fits or just say screw the chain line and run a 52 t on the outside of my adapter. The sub $200 DD 1500 watt hub is amazing how fast it goes on 48 volts and pulls hills at speed with help of the mid-drive.
.

What’s the hub?

 

[hillslayer@]

What’s the hub?

CSC 1500 watt on a 29" wheel.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Earlier in the thread starting on post #87 I mentioned complaints by ES members that "when a front hub motor accelerates hard it causes the forks to extend and pulls on the fork lowers in such a way that the stanchions are not used to."

Hub mid-drive dual motor combos

But isn't this only because a comparable hub is a much larger motor? A comparable hub has both more thermal mass and a more efficient path to ambient air. At the same time, it has the capacity to burst far more power, even on a pound for pound basis.

endless-sphere.com

Obviously running larger diameter stanchions would be helpful in this scenario. However, typically the largest diameter stanchions only come on the longest travel forks. This larger diameter stanchion to counteract the larger bending force exerted on the fork when hitting bumps and braking. For example, Fox specs their 100mm travel forks with 32mm diameter stanchions, their 150mm travel forks with 36mm stanchions and their 203mm travel forks with 40mm stanchions. Since 40mm diameter stanchions are 95% stiffer than 32mm stanchions the 103% increase in travel increase (of the 203mm fork over the 100mm fork) is compensated for.

The only place where I have seen this stanchion diameter to travel length ratio disrupted (for Fox) is in the gravel fork range.

Example below where the Fox 32mm stanchion gravel fork has only 40mm of travel:

FOX 32 Taper-Cast

With racing in its DNA and good times in its blood, FOX has enjoyed 50 years of going fast and taking chances. From twisting throttles to spinning pedals, we love all things on wheels. Buy your official FOX Factory suspension, apparel and accessories. Free delivery on orders above $99.

ridefox.com

 

[yantra yatra]

Does the hub motor cadence sensor work with the mid drive installed?

 

[hillslayer@]

Does the hub motor cadence sensor work with the mid drive installed?

Hub motor throttle only use the cadence sensor of the mid-drive. When trying to extend range using the hub at around 25 to 30 mph by itself you can pedal if you want with the mid-drive on 0 assist. This would be on level ground or slightly downhill. The geared hub bike I only use the hub for climbing. If you don't mind the extra weight I would use the direct drive hub over the geared hub when building this.

 

[bengxe]

Earlier in the thread starting on post #87 I mentioned complaints by ES members that "when a front hub motor accelerates hard it causes the forks to extend and pulls on the fork lowers in such a way that the stanchions are not used to."

Hub mid-drive dual motor combos

But isn't this only because a comparable hub is a much larger motor? A comparable hub has both more thermal mass and a more efficient path to ambient air. At the same time, it has the capacity to burst far more power, even on a pound for pound basis.

endless-sphere.com

Obviously running larger diameter stanchions would be helpful in this scenario. However, typically the largest diameter stanchions only come on the longest travel forks. This larger diameter stanchion to counteract the larger bending force exerted on the fork when hitting bumps and braking. For example, Fox specs their 100mm travel forks with 32mm diameter stanchions, their 150mm travel forks with 36mm stanchions and their 203mm travel forks with 40mm stanchions. Since 40mm diameter stanchions are 95% stiffer than 32mm stanchions the 103% increase in travel increase (of the 203mm fork over the 100mm fork) is compensated for.

The only place where I have seen this stanchion diameter to travel length ratio disrupted (for Fox) is in the gravel fork range.

Example below where the Fox 32mm stanchion gravel fork has only 40mm of travel:

FOX 32 Taper-Cast

With racing in its DNA and good times in its blood, FOX has enjoyed 50 years of going fast and taking chances. From twisting throttles to spinning pedals, we love all things on wheels. Buy your official FOX Factory suspension, apparel and accessories. Free delivery on orders above $99.

ridefox.com

Most/ all of those forks can be lowered. Lowering my 35mm Pike from 150 to 120 helped my bike in a lot of ways. And not all 32mm stanchions are the same. A 32mm, 100mm travel dirt jump fork is dramatically different from a 32/100 Fox 32 xc fork. A manitou circus weighs more than double an equivalent size fox 32 and is in a different ballpark of durability and rigidity.

Does the hub motor cadence sensor work with the mid drive installed?

If you have the right kind of cadence sensor, you could install it on the mid drive crank arm.

 

[hillslayer@]

Earlier in the thread starting on post #87 I mentioned complaints by ES members that "when a front hub motor accelerates hard it causes the forks to extend and pulls on the fork lowers in such a way that the stanchions are not used to."

Hub mid-drive dual motor combos

But isn't this only because a comparable hub is a much larger motor? A comparable hub has both more thermal mass and a more efficient path to ambient air. At the same time, it has the capacity to burst far more power, even on a pound for pound basis.

endless-sphere.com

Obviously running larger diameter stanchions would be helpful in this scenario. However, typically the largest diameter stanchions only come on the longest travel forks. This larger diameter stanchion to counteract the larger bending force exerted on the fork when hitting bumps and braking. For example, Fox specs their 100mm travel forks with 32mm diameter stanchions, their 150mm travel forks with 36mm stanchions and their 203mm travel forks with 40mm stanchions. Since 40mm diameter stanchions are 95% stiffer than 32mm stanchions the 103% increase in travel increase (of the 203mm fork over the 100mm fork) is compensated for.

The only place where I have seen this stanchion diameter to travel length ratio disrupted (for Fox) is in the gravel fork range.

Example below where the Fox 32mm stanchion gravel fork has only 40mm of travel:

FOX 32 Taper-Cast

With racing in its DNA and good times in its blood, FOX has enjoyed 50 years of going fast and taking chances. From twisting throttles to spinning pedals, we love all things on wheels. Buy your official FOX Factory suspension, apparel and accessories. Free delivery on orders above $99.

ridefox.com

I don't think front hub motors should be on most bikes, they are not designed for it. If you go on the MTB Reddit those guys freak out if you put a longer travel fork on a bike than it was designed for, adding a motor is even worse.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Most/ all of those forks can be lowered. Lowering my 35mm Pike from 150 to 120 helped my bike in a lot of ways.

Yes, I see that Rockshox has a 120mm travel option for the Pike.

But Fox is much more limited.

 

[hillslayer@]

Still haven't broken a side cover, love the DD hub, but if you wanted a hill climbing monster that was lighter than the econo version I think a CYC photon and a geared hub would be sweet. Photon is known to overheat if pushed the hub could take the load off. If you have $ build it might be the first.

 

[hillslayer@]

Have found a couple more cases of broken side covers planing some longer trips will have to pack a spare cover and freewheel until I have faith they won't break. Took one off they don't weigh to much freewheel is heavy will get a single speed one to put on my spare side cover.

 

[bengxe]

I would walk my broken bike as far as needed to not have to open my motor up on the side of the road, but I don't see any reason it would be impossible. You may want to try a single freewheel if you aren't, and maybe turn down the power coming from your mid drive for your long trips.

 

[hillslayer@]

I would walk my broken bike as far as needed to not have to open my motor up on the side of the road, but I don't see any reason it would be impossible. You may want to try a single freewheel if you aren't, and maybe turn down the power coming from your mid drive for your long trips.

It came apart pretty easy, l don't see how they fail looks well built but if the bearing in the cover starts to fail it would put a huge load on it. After a thousand miles will pull the cover and inspect. Willing to bet all the failures had the bearing go first.

 

[hillslayer@]

Was having trouble with the Vinka geared hub so noticed CSC had a 1500 watt hub laced to a fat tire rim . The way they make it fit a 190 dropout is extend the freewheel mount about an inch out with a different side cover. I would be scared to pedal this when shifted to the last gear much less run a BBSHD on it . But it might work as a single speed so going to put a 14t on hope it holds up.

 

[Chalo]

Was having trouble with the Vinka geared hub so noticed CSC had a 1500 watt hub laced to a fat tire rim . The way they make it fit a 190 dropout is extend the freewheel mount about an inch out with a different side cover. I would be scared to pedal this when shifted to the last gear much less run a BBSHD on it . But it might work as a single speed so going to put a 14t on hope it holds up.

So now you'll really only have the disadvantages of mid drive, and not the one advantage? Seems like you'd be better off putting the sum power of your two motors into the one rear hub motor, if it can tolerate that much.

 

[hillslayer@]

BBSHD 160 NM of torque is not easy to get in a direct drive hub. On my other bike with same motor and just a BBSO2 I hardly ever shift out of the 14 t cog. To get the same torque in a hub you have to do 72 volts with a huge hub and still worry about getting it to hot.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

BBSHD 160 NM of torque is not easy to get in a direct drive hub. On my other bike with same motor and just a BBSO2 I hardly ever shift out of the 14 t cog. To get the same torque in a hub you have to do 72 volts with a huge hub and still worry about getting it to hot.

That 160 Nm of torque would be only for a pedal drive train with 1:1 chainring to rear cog ratio. For a single speed drive train where the chainring is larger than the rear cog the torque at the rear tire will lower. For example, if your chainring is 48T and your rear cog is 16T your torque at the rear wheel would be 53.3 Nm. (Re: 16/48 * 160 = 53.3)

 

[hillslayer@]

I decided to return it,didn't see it was such a bad design until I had it.

 

[Chalo]

BBSHD 160 NM of torque is not easy to get in a direct drive hub.

That's because it's not a direct drive motor.

On my other bike with same motor and just a BBSO2 I hardly ever shift out of the 14 t cog. To get the same torque in a hub you have to do 72 volts with a huge hub and still worry about getting it to hot.

Power is power. BBSHD and other mid drives are power limited compared to hubs. You might get plenty of wheel torque by way of gear reduction, but you'll chip away at the hill rather than slaying it.

Most of the time, the mid drive will be in such a gear that its maximum wheel torque will be less than that of a hub of similar power. To meet or exceed that torque, you have to trade off wheel speed.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I decided to return it,didn't see it was such a bad design until I had it.

With fat bikes being so popular I'm a bit surprised there aren't more "optimized for fat bike rear hub motors". This especially with 190mm/197mm TA rear spacing taking over compared to 170mm/177mm TA (re: 190mm offers 55mm more space compared to 135mm for extra width stator and/or reduction gears).

P.S. Did you notice if that CSC 190mm spacing fat bike 1500w hub motor had aluminum threads on the side cover for the freewheel?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Although it is somewhat disturbing to me that fat bikes have such wide q factors.......having fat bike rear spacing doesn't necessarily mean the q factor has to be so wide.

Below is an example of a fat bike with 177mm TA rear spacing yet it uses 83mm BB and has a q factor of 183mm:

Otso Cycles Voytek

The Otso Voytek is a versatile fat bike with a narrow Q factor that can and should be ridden all year. It is built to have fat bike wheels for riding in the snow and plus mountain bike wheels for riding in the dirt when the seasons change. Ride it for snowy singletrack, dirt trail touring, or...

otsocycles.com

And I reckon if the frame were designed around shorter cranks q factor could be shrunk down even further:

Q-Factor and the Voytek

Simply put, Q-Factor on a bicycle is the distance between the outer surfaces of the crank arms. This affects how far apart the pedals are, which in turn affects the biomechanics of pedaling and the handling of the bike. A bike fitter's rule of thumb for a good lateral fit is to have the hip...

otsocycles.com

 

[hillslayer@]

With fat bikes being so popular I'm a bit surprised there aren't more "optimized for fat bike rear hub motors". This especially with 190mm/197mm TA rear spacing taking over compared to 170mm/177mm TA (re: 190mm offers 55mm more space compared to 135mm for extra width stator and/or reduction gears).

P.S. Did you notice if that CSC 190mm spacing fat bike 1500w hub motor had aluminum threads on the side cover for the freewheel?

Didn't check that one but my other one does have steel threads and seems to be holding up running on the 14t cog almost exclusively around 300 miles so far.

 

[Chalo]

Although it is somewhat disturbing to me that fat bikes have such wide q factors.......having fat bike rear spacing doesn't necessarily mean the q factor has to be so wide.

Well, chainline isn't negotiable once it starts to foul the tire. And since every feckless poser in the world has to have at least 11 sprockets back there now, the cassette width isn't very flexible either. Frankly I'm a little surprised that the BB can be shaved down to 83mm and still work with 100mm fat tires and derailleur gearing. But that Otso bike isn't as greedy for short chainstays as most.

The original fatbike, Hanebrink Extreme Terrain, was immune to the factors that result in wide Q.

Hanebrink Extreme Terrain: The First Production Fat Bike

Released in 1991, the Hanebrink Extreme Terrain might be the most radical bike ever to land on Earth. Discover its fascinating history...

bikepacking.com

Here's a new bauble to distract folks who must take things to foolish extremes:

Surly Moonlander | The Largest Fat Tire Bike | Worlds Biggest Fat Bike

The Surly Moonlander is the most capable fat tire bike ever created. Featuring this worlds widest bike tires

surlybikes.com

24 x 6.2" tires! Who will be the first to put in a pair of All Axle hub motors?