Replacing my motorcycle with an E-bike, advice needed

[jbrown]

I wrote up a big long post several days ago, but it vanished. After looking at all the options I decided to jump right into trying to build up an E-bike. I used to commute on my motorcycle, but in typical Vancouver fashion, the city plopped a meter in the motorcycle only spot, at 2$/hour.
The scooter riders and I have all vacated the spot for more pleasant places, but there really aren't many spots left I can park. I've had it with the hassles, I love my bike but they've finally pushed me over the edge on being able to afford to ride it. For what I spend in a year thanks to the endlessly increasing excessive insurance rates(1200$/year liability only on a 1979 CX500 and that's with a safe driver discount), the total lack of affordable parking and I've had it.

My commute is pretty basic, approx 4 miles each way 4 days a week, and 9 miles one day a week but I can charge while at work at 4 miles. Once a month or so I want to go about 30 miles to visit my parents.

I work full time in the evenings and am a full time university student too. I looked at a MC conversion but decided against it, likewise the BMX, the cast wheel with better cooling really appeals for hills, but realistically my

I've purchased the following:

-26 Inch Rear Magic Pie 3 Conversion Kit
(Throttle: 48 Volt Twist)
-48V10AH LiFePO4 Aluminum Cased Battery
-6 Speed Freewheel
-Freewheel Tool
-Front LED Light
-Rear LED Light
-Battery Rack (Black)
-Torque Arms
from Goldenmotors.ca

I'm on the fence as to what type of bike to build, originally I was going to build a nice full suspension bike, but with all the bike theft in Vancouver, I'm worried about painting a big target on my expensive electronic bike setup by doing that.
Now I'm looking at putting it on a surly troll frame, and then disguising the frame as a piece of junk(top-coating it with crappy black paint and iron filings to get it to rust and look like crap).
I'm still torn on the suspension issue, I'm thinking that front suspension might be nice, and I could get a good quality front fork, put the ugly rubber boots like on the cheap forks, and put some Suuntor or whatever brand Walmart puts on their shocks stickers/stenciling on it.
Advantages are that I'll have a really good quality cro-moly frame that can take a ton of abuse, and can be built into a lot of variations as my life changes, including side mounting batteries in the back, downsides are no rear suspension

What sort of extra waterproofing is needed for riding in the rain? I was thinking of using GM gasket sealer around where the wires come out(pure latex, only thing my friend will put in hot-rod/motorcycle engines due to it's durability and adhesion compared to RTV silicone)

Is there anything I'm missing for a first build? I'm also trying to figure out how to put more power into it, I'd like to be able to get 40 miles of no pedal range, and 33 mph. I've been reading that more voltage through the motor with an external controller is actually better for keeping it cool because high amperage and 48v will overheat going uphill.
I read one mention of someone filling their hub motor with ATF, I've built oil cooled computers before so this doesn't strike me as a bad idea.

I have access to vacuum molding equipment so I can easily fabricate carriers for batteries to keep them safe and mount farther forward but I haven't seen any sensibly shaped packs for putting in the triangle that way, or along the outside of the frame by the head-stock(single width cells in a row would be perfect there) why is that?

Is it possible to build something with Ping's packs up front if nothing is available custom, and still keep compatibility with a GM battery on the rear rack as a booster? Or even just 2 GM batteries I'm thinking like 20-30AH up front and 10 on the rear rack would give me the range I'm looking for, and down the road the pings packs could be wired in series for increased voltage. Is this possible?

 

[nebriancent]

ive been riding in vancouvee weather on my e-bike for over a year now and have had no real problems riding daily year round

as far as water entrey into the hub i foind it not to be too big a problem
in one year ofriding on my gm hub (befor i got my 9c)i only had one isue due to water entrey andthats my hall sensors
took about 1hr to rep,ace them and i was on my way

if you wanted to talk via the phone or in person i would be more then happy to help you out on your build or with advice
as for the battery if you want a custom shape and dont wanna spend a arm and leg you are going to have to build it( can help you here to)
i know Some of the best local spots fpr parts that i wouls be happy to share with you
but for most of your questions tjere is no one ultomate answeer

 

[dogman dan]

I have a bad back, and a 15 mile commute. So I found a FS bike mandatory on crappy local roads.

4 miles is still no sweat for me though. I'd be tempted to build on a fairly cheap beach cruiser frame for a 4 mile ride. Get one with a 7 speed rear shifter and decent v brakes. Schwinn from wallmart for example.

Why the crusier? Less steal me, especially after you uglify it. Nice stiff frame, so it will ride comfy at 30 mph with no frame sway. Huge area for the battery in the frame. If you GM battery doesn't last, a 48v 15 ah ping will fit in the middle real nice.

Another option would be a really cheap coaster brake bike, but steel frame. Why steel? so you can weld on it all you want. Disk mounts for brakes the first mod of course. Second mod, big fat steel dropouts for when you go to 40 mph on 72v.

 

[nebriancent]

i wont run w/o disk brakes in van
they grab just as well wet as they do dry

parts lats longer
and you dont chew through your rim like with vbrakes

 

[jbrown]

@Dogman: I'm planning to build on a Surly Troll, I'm undecided on front suspension or none at all. I picked it for the good quality steel frame, and the fact that once repainted it won't look like a valuable frame. In terms of disguise, I'm torn between powdercoating the frame a colour I'd like(satin black or a dark green), it should look like any other steel framed bike then, or going all out and doing a bad quality rattle can paint job with some iron filings mixed in. The real coating underneath will keep the frame from actually rusting, but the paint and iron filings on the surface will look terrible and hopefully avoid anyone taking a second look, the skinny frame, and paint job should keep it looking cheap. Either using the matching the front fork, or putting a good quality 120mm suspension fork on the front(increase the wheelbase slightly, which I think would actually be a good choice on a motorized bike, giving more of the DH bike angles). I'd paint the suspension fork, then put fake logo stickers on it to match the walmart brand ones, cheap fork boots and cast some silicone rubber caps to hide the controls and mimic the look of cheap suspension.

I'm not sure if the effort of doing an ugly paint job is worth it, after all the rear motor will be pretty obvious still.

That leads into my next question: Can a hub motor take a hit, like from a staircase or a small drop, or would I need full suspension for that? I'm used to hopping curbs on a non-suspended bike but I don't know if the motor can take it? Would rear suspension change that any?
If I do the troll build, I'll be putting a good quality front wheel on it with disc brakes on both wheels, then crapifying it to make it look worthless.

This will allow me to build a long distance capable perfectly fitted frame and component set, something that is fully capable of being upgraded later.
-What offset is required in comparison to standard pedals to allow the triangle to be stuffed with battery packs, or is there already sufficient clearance that I could put ping packs into the triangle? Because if I could fill the frame with ping battery packs then I could get some pretty decent AH.

Is it possible to use the GM pack as a range booster with the ping packs in the triangle?

Option 2 is to get a decent full suspension bike.(budget of about 700$ used)

@ Nebriancent: that sounds excellent, I would love to meet up, and any advice would be appreciated. Any reason you switched from a GM motor to the 9C? After reading about 9C motors on ebikes.ca, I decided on the GM engine sounded better in terms of durability and power output.

-Any way to prevent the hall sensors from going dead or protecting them from water?

I saw some mention in other threads of people running the GM motors at higher power outputs(75% up to 120%), as well as adjusting the regen. Is this possible with the internal controller, and how do I change that?
IIRC they were talking this not being available running sensorless? Do the hall sensors avoid the jerky output?

 

[dogman dan]

Quickest easiest way to crappify a bike is throw oil on it, and ride it in the dirt. Back in the 80's a freind of mine had three brand new honda 750 motorcycles stolen in 6 months. After insurance bought him the 4th one, he took it and poured two quarts of motor oil all over it, and never ever washed it off. After that, he dared em to take it again by leaving the keys in it 24-7. The bike never got stolen. Not even from in front of a bar he worked at.

Another good way to crap up a bike is stickers or duct tape or some kind of art bike approach that makes it too identifyable and harder to fence. Too hard to peel 100 stickers for the tweakers to bother with.

A smart thief though, is gonna know a surly frame when he sees it. He wouldn't even glance at a funky old used beach cruiser though. I know you don't want to ride crap, but 4 miles doesn't reqiure anything but a bike shaped object.

In general, a battery box needs to clear the pedal arc. Once it does that, up to 6 inches wide can be tolerated ok. But 4 inches wide is much more comfy. Get some longer bmx trick riding, or cruiser pedals so you can shift your feet out another half inch or so.

Edit. Re reading your first post, I see I missed where you want to occasionally ride 30 miles. That range is doable with a 48v 15 ah pingbattery if you slow down enough for that particular trip. 18-20 mph should do it. But it does make wanting a better bike than a cheap beach cruiser more needed. I'd have to have FS to do it often, but even for an occasional trip, you should go with a front shock. Maybe just a cheapie, like a bottom of the line alloy shock. 60-80 mm travel is plenty for street. Can't be showing thieves a $400 shock.

Curb hops don't hurt motors much, but without decent rear suspension you'll tend to bend rims. Oops, just went to bikes thieves will take. Just take it easier on the curb hops. Roll the back wheel over it slower. The motor and battery weight doesn't rocker on the pedals like your weight does, so it pounds hard on the rims.

 

[Alan B]

For the longer rides, I'm setting up a recumbent. I wonder if folks would steal a used recumbent, they are just not popular and probably hard to fence.

For water, it gets drawn into the hub when it is cooling. Fully sealing is not possible, the pressure when the air warms and expands will find a path or create one. The important thing is to bring it out of the wet during the cooling cycle. Just the motor and cable ends where water can be drawn in. Drilling holes in the cover to let moisture out so it can dry properly is another technique.

If you are going to rely on the ebike on a daily basis it might be important to consider having two. If one has a problem or is being upgraded you have a spare, or perhaps you can walk or use public transportation or a pushbike for that. Or have one nicer bike set up for the longer trips and a minimal cheap one set up for the short daily run. Take the battery off of the short run bike and use a smaller more stealthy when parked geared hub. With a little effort the electrics can be nearly completely hidden. Since the trip is short the speed doesn't need to be as high.

Often it is possible to bring the bike indoors at work or school and reduce theft and moisture problems.

 

[nebriancent]

@ Nebriancent: that sounds excellent, I would love to meet up, and any advice would be appreciated. Any reason you switched from a GM motor to the 9C? After reading about 9C motors on ebikes.ca, I decided on the GM engine sounded better in terms of durability and power output.

-Any way to prevent the hall sensors from going dead or protecting them from water?

I saw some mention in other threads of people running the GM motors at higher power outputs(75% up to 120%), as well as adjusting the regen. Is this possible with the internal controller, and how do I change that?
IIRC they were talking this not being available running sensorless? Do the hall sensors avoid the jerky output?

i have found they easiest way to protect the sensors from water it to ignore water entry to the hub and make sure the halls are sealed internally (i use high temp silicone to pot them into the hub sealing the leads to the wires with a double walled waterproof shrink tubing and pot over the tubing to and over the sensor body)
soldering connections and using a double walled waterproof heat shrink (has like some sort of hot glue inside) prevents watter from being drawn through the wire casings but watter still will enter the hub (in rely small amounts) so you are best to just not seal it 100%

i found the gm motor after one year has no visible signs of rust on the iron laminations and my halls failed on it only after i tried to seal the hub
and they didn't fail all together but would act up in wet weather

the reason i swapped out to a 9c is i wanted a localy available lower wind speed motor that i could get some hard acceleration out of without a excessive current draw off the battery

i learned my lesson this year during winter that you draw more current in snow and what have you causing a higher amperage draw from the battery and you can potentially damage said battery due to the higher internal resistance in the cold

so my 8 wind motor draws less amperage per rpm at the same voltage
stays colder on hills
has a harder acceleration per amp (at the same voltage)
trade off is i get a little bit less top end (per volt)

so far i have completely avoided drilling out my side covers for fear of debry entering said hub
and i am now hammering my hub with 4kw peak values but since the acceleration is so much faster i don't have the time to heat up and burn it

upgrades that i wont live without to any hub is a phase wire upgrade
i have found it to drastically reduce heat generation in the hub by sinking more heat from the windings

i use 8 gauge wiring (think Canadian tire jumper cables) from the windings in a nice loop to the Axel
shove as fat a wire as i can get though the Axel without compromising the integrity of said Axel by drilling it out (commonly somewhere between 12 and 14 on easy to obtain wire) then make another connection to it using 10 gauge wire to my controller connection

trick is with phase wires is to keep them all the same length to avoid problems with a resistance mismatch between phases

 

[jbrown]

@Alan and Dogman:
Thanks, that gives me some good insight into what I'll need, pity about the curb hops, but i'll live. Guess I wasn't really going to be bunny hopping 25lbs on my rear wheel over a curb anyways.
Re 2 bikes: not enough space in my house. Gonna need 1 to do it all. I was thinking surly would be the least obvious since it's a skinny tube frame like most of the cheap frames, and once blacked out, covered in crap with bits of foam taped on to protect my testes from the front post, bits of clear water bottle to protect my cell phone mount on the bars, ugly fenders with bits of juice box to extend them I'm hoping it won't get a second look. I could easily get both solid and suspension forks for it, as well as a couple sets of tires(frame will fit up to 3.0 and 2.7" tires front and back).
Maybe I'll just get a cheap frame to get rolling, and figure the rest out later, but I'm usually of the buy once cry once school of thought when it comes to stuff I rely on. I've got an indoor lockup at work apparently At school there is a cage, and I'm only there one day a week.


@ Nebriancent:
That sounds good, but I'm thinking I'd definitely want to meet up in person, beyond the concept of potting the hall sensors(which I understand from potting flashlight electronics in epoxy, I'm pretty much lost.

 

[Oakwright]

I had once heard a great technique to make a bike less desirable to steal. TWO coats of paint. The first coat some sort of rust colored paint (brass color, or some sort of red). Get it dirty, and then repaint it with some cheap paint. Scar up the paint a little and it will look like the frame is rusted out underneath. No one wants to steal a bike that looks like it has been rotted out with rust.

Personally, I just make sure I lock it in publicly visible places, and lock it properly. If really paranoid, I use two locks. I have an extra cable that I loop through everything that can walk off (such as baskets, seat etc) just to make it more of a pain for a thief. Also, I have a beach cruiser style, so that might be a bit of deterrent too.

As for water, I'm near seattle, and have had some water damage in my motor. Once I knew how, the repairs were fairly simple. It is basically impossible to keep water out if water wants to get in. However, there are things you can do to minimize that, such as having our cables dip down a little before going into the motor so that water drips off the cable instead of flowing right into the motor. Sealing the pieces inside the motor that actually matter (like the hall sensors) might help. Treating the metal bits with things to prevent rust (acf50, paint, etc) can help. Some (like me) have elected to drill holes in the casing of the motor, which does let more water in, but more importantly it lets water OUT. Much of the techniques used to prevent water damage seem to be personal taste to how to approach the problem, and some folks never seem to have the problem at all.

One thing I should note though... getting an ebike isn't a simple solution to a problem. It is a whole new hobby. Hardly anyone with an ebike just gets it set up and is done. There is constantly tinkering. Minor malfunctions. Constant tuning. I have spent way more time tinkering on my bike than I have spent on all other vehicles I have owned combined. It's enough tinkering to warrant the existence of this entire site. And it is a lot of fun! Most of the things are easy to learn, and easy to do, but it is a constant thing, which I personally enjoy.

 

[jbrown]

Started a new thread instead of poinst here. Not sure how to delete it.
I've ended up with the Mp3 kit, thumb throttle cruise control etc, and a Voodo Wampa instead of the surly troll(400$ for the whole bike incl a Bomber front fork hydraulic disk brakes, bars etc.

Can't find instructions anywhere that match what I actually have in terms of # of wires etc.
Feeling awfully stoopid, could definitely use a little hand holding so I don't fry the whole thing with a silly mistake somehow. Anybody got a bit of time?