Requesting Sanity Check Before Buying

[jcouvret]

I hate to be another one of those newbies with a what-do-you-think post, but here goes...

I have a Novara Buzz commuter bike that I want to convert. It is a beefy aluminum frame bike with mountain bike components and disc brakes with 700c wheels. It's a firm ride, but I love it. I am overweight (but not weak) at 220lbs and looking to commute 13 miles each way to work on relatively flat terrain with up to 10mph headwind and really only one 3%-grade, 1-mile long hill. There is a bike lane the entire way. I am comfortable working on bikes and electrical stuff.

Here is what I would like to accomplish:

- Cheap. I am approved by my wife to spend up to $600, so I am hoping to spend no more than $750

- Easily make it the 13 miles with light-to-moderate pedaling. I am okay charging at work in order to use a cheaper/lighter battery.

- Keep it light. I really like riding this bike and don't want to make it so heavy the handling changes significantly.

- Easy to use, safe, and decent life. I don't want to be shopping for all new stuff in a year, assuming I will be satisfied with <20mph. (I know, everyone says I will want more and more speed as I get sucked into this new hobby!)

- Keep the original bike intact enough that I can still use it as a regular bike occasionally. The rear dropouts on this bike look very non-ebike friendly. They are small, aluminum and the wheel bolts down against the rear derailleur mount. I lean towards not using them as I don't want to destroy the bike if I screw something up. I have always kind of wanted to put a chromoly fork on this bike to soften the ride a bit, so I am perfectly fine changing to a steel fork to support a front motor.

- Goal speed is 18 mph on flats with moderate pedaling. I'll take faster if it meets my cost and weight budget.

- Ultimate goal is health and sanity. I would like to get some exercise out of this, so this is definitely more a pedal assist than electric motorcycle. I would also like to regain my sanity by not sitting in traffic twice a day.

I have gone back and forth between front or rear, geared or direct-drive so many times my head is spinning. Right now, I am thinking of getting an MXUS 350W geared front motor from either e-bikekit or cell_man and a 36V 10Ah LiFePO4 battery, either an a123 from cell_man or a ping. I will purchase torque arms, probably from e-bikekit. What's lead me towards these choices:
- Geared due to weight
- Front because of my rear dropouts and desire to keep the existing drivetrain. I am also looking forward to putting a chromoly fork on the bike to soften the ride just a touch.
- 36V 10Ah LiFePO4 to reduce cost and weight, simplicity and safety, and that I want some exercise.

If anyone thinks I have come to the wrong conclusions or has any suggestions, I would truly appreciate the input. Am I correct in thinking a low/moderate-power front motor like I have spec'd is safe? Should I be considering a direct-drive for my needs, even though it is heavier?

One last question - I need a steel fork for a 700c wheel with disc brake mounts. The only thing I've found so far is a Kona P2 Fork for around $70. Anyone have other suggestions?

Thanks so much!!!

 

[neptronix]

350w cell_man geared kit shipped via sea = under $225.
10ah 36v ping = $365 shipped.

That leaves you with $590 spent thus far.

Add ampedbike's front torque arm if you are set on doing front motor ( though i do not recommend it since rear is stronger ), a turnigy watt meter, and you've tacked on about $50 for that.

Expect to spend $50-$100 on top of that for battery mounting, wiring, switches, etc etc.

Lipo can shave some money off this build and reduce the weight some, that's how my first build was a bit cheaper than the estimate i just gave you.

 

[jimw1960]

I think you are on the right track as far as the motor. As you were describing your needs, I was thinking "geared motor" before I read that was what you were leaning toward. As for the battery, for the relatively low power you are needing, A123 cells will be underutilized. So, if you can save money with a Ping, I'd go that route. I agree with your choice of 36v, but for the Ah capacity, 10Ah won't be enough to get you the 26 mile round trip. If you can recharge at work, you are golden (but then you have to carry a charger). Otherwise, I'd go a bit higher in capacity to a 36v15Ah -- even that may be pushing the capacity limit.

P.S. Some may disagree, but if you have fairly beefy rear dropouts, you can do without a torque arm at that relatively low power.

 

[neptronix]

P.S. Some may disagree, but if you have fairly beefy rear dropouts, you can do without a torque arm at that relatively low power.

That works for some bikes that are earlier than the 2000's.. modern bikes have really bad dropouts though. It's kind of on a case by case basis. 350w nominal is not a lot of power and the 350w geared kit does have a soft start, so that helps.

 

[Gordo]

You appear to know what you need and what you want. As this thread fills up you will undoubtedly get multiple varying opinions. Maybe more confusing than helpful? Good luck with your build and health/exercise program. Tell DW about the cost of going to a gym.

 

[jimw1960]

neptronix is probably right. you did say it was an aluminum frame.

 

[Rassy]

I think you are on the right track too. Always remember, most of us do several builds before we are really satisfied, so you have to start somewhere.

Good luck with the build.

 

[jcouvret]

Thanks all for the quick replies! I appreciate the feedback - I feel more comfortable moving forward with the build.

 

[stanz]

1) Convert the front forks as you suggested, front drive will give you better balance. I wish I'd done a front conversion but it was more work than I wanted to do.

2) Go with a geared motor if you don't want to effect the normal bike operation. Direct drive puts a drag on when not under power, gear drive doesn't. Geared drive will also net you longer range.

3) Buy more battery than you think you need. Extra capacity means you don't have to discharge your pack deeply, this will extend the pack life.

4) Buy from a recommended source, trust me, as a newbie support is important. I appreciate having the folks at AmpedBikes ready on the other end of the phone.

5) Research, research, research.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

Keep it simple:

ebikekit.com Direct Drive front hub motor kit. $400 (has every single item but the battery)

36volt, 15 ah battery from Pingbattery: $385

Two hours to install.

Go ride.

Forks? Well, if your forks aren't steel, find a beater bike at a garage sale for ten bucks, take the forks...done.

OR: Ebikekit.com complete set for 500 bucks, including 36 volt, 9ah SLA battery (16 pounds). It'll get you to work just fine. Charge up, and ride home at the end of the day. In the meantime, take the next year to save up for a better battery.


For your budget you can't go wrong with them (ebikekit.com). It's a complete kit. Nothing else to buy (except, perhaps a rear rack for twenty bucks if you want your battery there. You can probably put it in the bike frame for better balance. Use industrial zipties, about five bucks a bundle, or velcro straps, etc.

Keep in mind that guys in New Jersey put those kits together (ebikekit). That means something in this recession. Plus, customer service is fantastic.

This build is all from them in one package. Rode great. I put the kit on a tricycle eventually and it's a bundle of fun. I'm in the process of starting a second bike and will be using one of their kits again. It's easy. That's why I like it. For me it's more about the commute and the fun and less about the technicalities, but some like shopping piece by piece. You can save money that way, but you could also be riding in a week if you order stateside. Something to think about.

This took me one hour:

Eventually I moved the battery to the frame (and was lucky that it fit perfectly). The balance was fantastic. Very fun.

Then, I moved the kit to its original home, the tricycle:

 

[neptronix]

Egh, i wouldn't wish SLA on my worst enemy.

Good price for a starter kit, but you will have a 20-40+ lb box of crap on your hands. And after you get tired of them in a month.. nobody is really interested in taking off your hands. There goes $100+

Shelby electro bike has an interesting article on this, from the perspective of a SLA refugee.

http://sites.google.com/site/shelby...lead-acid-batteries-do-not-belong-on-an-ebike

Sorry to ding ya Mike, but he's got the budget to do lithium so why not spend money on something that's quality & will last.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

No worries.

I'll go LifePo myself soon enough. But I'm saving for the big gun: 48 volt, 15ah Ping. That's about 5 Benjamins. My goal is to wait until next summer for that, unless I get rid of camera gear, and I can't bear to do that.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

For the hub motor, you can get any of the cheap low end kits and probably would be happy. Nothing terribly special if you want to go <20 MPH and want light. The beefy hub motors are really heavy, and costly.
I have a Q100 kit coming from BMS battery for a co-worker to screw around with. About $220 shipped, should do everything you want. 350W is probably 'enough' if you dont mind helping out up hills. It will take you to 15-20some MPH on flat roads with slow acceleration.

http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/352-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html

24V means you can run 6S LiPo straight up. Get something like the ECO 6-10 charger from Hobby King...
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=15167
4 of these in parallel would give you enough power to expect 15-25 mile range unassisted. Should be enough to take you to work and back if you pedal.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=16207

This setup cost him about $500, and will be going together shortly. I cant speak on the quality or reliability of the Q100 hub kit, since I didn't get it yet. However, the Turnigy LiPo is great for the price, but its not as easy to use as a premade pack. It will be cheaper and likely more reliable, however. Don't bother with lead whatever you do. It will be dead in a year or less, then that money is out the window.

 

[el_walto]

I don't see any problems with your proposed build. Just remember it's not an easy task to change your bike back and fourth all the time. Also, you might not need a torque arm at 350 Watts.

 

[morph999]

so you want to eliminate your car and commute by e-bike and your wife is putting you on a $600 limit? WTF. Doesn't she realize how much money you are going to save almost regardless of how much an e-bike costs? Even if you spent $2000, the e-bike would pay for itself after the first year. As long as you know that you won't have a problem commuting by bike, I don't understand why your wife is so nitpicky on this. Try biking to work without a motor for a few days and once you really know you can do it, your wife should ease up on the $$ amount in my opinion.

Everytime I hear "my wife...." I just cringe. I'm glad i'm single.

 

[wesnewell]

My whole bike with motor and battery pack cost less than $600 and would easily fit your needs.

 

[jcouvret]

so you want to eliminate your car and commute by e-bike and your wife is putting you on a $600 limit? WTF. Doesn't she realize how much money you are going to save almost regardless of how much an e-bike costs? Even if you spent $2000, the e-bike would pay for itself after the first year. As long as you know that you won't have a problem commuting by bike, I don't understand why your wife is so nitpicky on this. Try biking to work without a motor for a few days and once you really know you can do it, your wife should ease up on the $$ amount in my opinion.

Everytime I hear "my wife...." I just cringe. I'm glad i'm single.

I shouldn't have blamed my wife for the budget - I am imposing the budget on myself as well. And in her defense, we both used to be debt-ridden consumers and have broken free since getting married by helping each other watch what we spend our money on. I totally agree on the potential savings in auto expenses and if I can get in better shape - I can't put a value on that. However, the question is whether I will stick with it, which is why I set a budget to see how well this works out. If I stick with it for a year, I'm sure I could see myself investing more in this hobby.

I've done the commute before occassionally, but usually just one way. I find myself too sore the next day to do it again for a week, which is why I'm hoping with pedal-assist, I can find it comfortable to do everyday. Plus, I hope with power, I can make it fast enough to be within 10 or 15 minutes or my typical 25 minute commute. Heck, maybe I'll get in good enough shape to quit using the electric motor!

Yes, married and now with a baby, I have essentially no time for myself - but it is also the best time of my life! As a man, I could never knock bachelorhood - but I personally have found life much more invigorating now that I'm living it as part of a team.

Thanks for the input though - I am trying to balance cost with not wasting money on something that doesn't meet my needs. One thing I'm torn on - 10Ah vs 15Ah Ping battery. I plan on charging at work, but that means either carrying the weight of the charger or spending $50 on an additional charger. However, will I get longer life out of the battery by drawing a lower C on the 15Ah battery and then potentially have a large enough battery to make it to work and back?

 

[jcouvret]

My whole bike with motor and battery pack cost less than $600 and would easily fit your needs.

I like your setup and have had LiPo in the back of my mind through all of this research. Why I have stayed away so far is I want something easy to manage on a daily basis and would really like to just park my bike in the garage when I get home, plug in the charger, and walk away so I can spend the small amount of free time I get each workday with my son. The risk of fire, even if really small, scares me that I would have to be watching constantly to make sure I'm not burning down the garage. Has your experience with LiPo been good? What charger do you use and what's your charging process like? Thanks for your input!

 

[dogman dan]

Neptronix nailed it on the first reply. Only by using the weaker wattage kits can you get away with a battery that small, and stay on budget.

Screw the budget though, and get a 36v 15 ah ping battery. Why? because you will want a stronger motor later, and will be stuck with that small battery for years and years. So save on the motor now, but buy a slightly bigger battery. You'll love the extra range, and the battery will last better. It's the one thing you shouldn't scrimp on, the battery.

You can get a very cheap second charger on ebay, even a charger for sla can work fine on a ping.

 

[neptronix]

I agree, a 15ah will cost a bit more, but you will get better range out of it, less voltage sag and thus higher top speed when hitting hills/accelerating etc. You will also get better cycle life out of it from stressing it out less.

The cell_man kit is happy with a 350w 10ah ping ( 18 amp controller ) if you really have to cut costs.
The yescomusa 250w 36v kit is going to be super weak in terms of acceleration so you will want to avoid that kit altogether.
The yescomusa 500w 36v kit is going to be actually worth buying, BUT it will need the 15ah ping because the controller is going to need just a bit more than 20 amps, probably 22 or 25 amps.

I think the cell_man kit shipped via sea still comes out to be cheaper though. Not by much!

 

[wesnewell]

My whole bike with motor and battery pack cost less than $600 and would easily fit your needs.

I like your setup and have had LiPo in the back of my mind through all of this research. Why I have stayed away so far is I want something easy to manage on a daily basis and would really like to just park my bike in the garage when I get home, plug in the charger, and walk away so I can spend the small amount of free time I get each workday with my son. The risk of fire, even if really small, scares me that I would have to be watching constantly to make sure I'm not burning down the garage. Has your experience with LiPo been good? What charger do you use and what's your charging process like? Thanks for your input!

Whem I first bought lipo I didn't know which charger to get so I bought one that I knew would charge the whole 14s pack at once, a Hyperion 1420i. And yes, it works great, when I use it. Most times I just pull in the garage and plug in the sla charger that came with the motor kit, and then come out in an hour and check on it. I really should buy a wall timer to plug it into so I can have it shut off automatically (about $15 at home depot), or get a bulk charger with a set voltage for $29, but I haven't forgot it yet. Since I bought a $19 HK-010 Power Analyzer with a built in balancer, I really could get by completely without the lipo charger. Even with the charger I rarely do a balance charge. I've had no problems with lipo. That's all I'd use now. IMO the hazards blown way out of proportion. The only thing I'd be careful about is storing it for long periods without checking it. As long as you are going to use it every day or so, I wouldn't worry about it. Just visually check it when you use it. See Ypedals Lipo Abuse thread in the battery tech forum here. That should ease your mind about how fragile it is.

 

[neptronix]

Hey wes.. let me know how that balancer goes. It is kind of a new item. There are a lot of reviews on hobbyking saying that as a balancer, it is really bad. But maybe that was the first batch.
Nobody here has reported on it.

 

[jcouvret]

Thanks all for the input. I decided to break the budget a little and went for the 350W Front Geared Kit from e-BikeKit and a 36V 15Ah Ping battery. Little things like the torque arm, throttle choice (I have thumb shifters and cell_man's kit is a thumb throttle), shipping, and having a vendor available for questions from my home country added together to make me realize the kit from cell_man wasn't going to be drastically cheaper. I really think I could have gone either way and am certainly not trying to push any particular vendor. I appreciate what cell_man is offering and I am impressed with his input all around these forums.

I also ordered the Turnigy Watt Meter - that looks like a sweet little device I didn't know about! I just need to find a steel front fork with disc brake mounts before all the stuff shows up in a couple weeks.

I will make a point to post the final product once I get it all assembled in a couple weeks. Thanks again!

 

[wesnewell]

Are you talking about the balncer in the HK-010, or the Hyperion 1420i? I haven't even tried the one in the HK-010 yet, but will if that's the one you mean.

 

[neptronix]

Solid choices
Hopefully the wife will understand once she gets to ride it, hehe.

Good luck with the building.

wes: i was referring to the hk-010 unit.