Ruined $150 Shimano Deore hydraulic brakes

[ben2401]

I forgot to mention with those brakes that broke. They would make an extremely EXTREMELY loud noise whenever they would build up heat. I tried to look it up on cycling forums to see if that was normal. The best thing I read was that it's normal for the metal sintered pads to " HOWL" I am using those types of pads. It was a very loud screeching noise, not sure if you guys have the same thing. It was so loud in fact that I people in cars would turn and look at red lights . Scrrreeeeech. :lol:

They get hot and noisy QUICK.

I wonder why the hope tech v4s are " only a half step down from a motorcycle brake" they look tiny and just like all the Shimano saints.

I have a BR-MT520/501 combo on the front of one of my bikes (the same 4-piston Shimano that you have). In my experience, it is a great brake. Basically the same performance as the Deore/SLX/XT 4-piston (even has ceramic pistons and servo-wave lever) but painted black and marketed as an OE ebike factory brake. Mine came stock with the Shimano resin pads and it was very quiet with great performance. Living in a very hilly area with long downhills on one of my daily rides, I wanted to try metallic pads.

I got a 4-pack of the best metallic pads Aliexpress had to offer for 15$. I’ve had the exact same howling/resonating problem as you. Glad I tried them first and not the 40$ Shimano metallic. The performance at the limit is good, metallic pads don’t fade. They are quiet as long as you are braking HARD. The problem is for 90% of braking they don’t get hot enough and with light to mid pressure (10-60% or so) they cause the rotor to resonate and it’s loud as hell. I have a 203mm floating rotor btw. Cleaned them way too many times to confirm although it does get a bit better when pad material is distributed on the rotor, and also, as the pads wear. I think the resonance is basically caused by too-high coefficient of friction on the pads/rotor so when they grab the rotor at lighter pressure it basically stops/moves many, many times/second (the flex in the rotor and hub allow this against the rotating wheel). This resonance has also broken spokes in a well-built front wheel. I will be switching back to resin/organic pads after my stock runs out.

 

[MarkJohnston]

That explains the broken spokes! Yeah I've had two break. Yeah resonance.

 

[MarkJohnston]

I just bought the same brake with resin pads. Knock on wood it was just a manufacturer defect before and this won't happen again. Now I know to never ever drag the brakes. Otherwise I'll jam it up, or destroy it internally.

I still have a stock of metal sintered pads. These are the highest quality Shimano ones. $25 a piece. I'll try resin, I do live in a dry environment. Do I need to clean the rotor switching to resin? I already cleaned with iso propyl 99 %

 

[DogDipstick]

I still have a stock of metal sintered pads. These are the highest quality Shimano ones. $25 a piece. I'll try resin, I do live in a dry environment. Do I need to clean the rotor switching to resin? I already cleaned with iso propyl 99 %

DO2s are junk. The resin ones with the fin are the best. I turn my rotor(s) red hot regularly.

No you dont need to do anything. The only thing I do is scuff the rotor up really good on the garage floor. Or I use sandy paper. Sometimes a file or a grinder if I am in a rush. So the pads bed in. Final clean and install.

 

[MarkJohnston]

I'm trying resin no fins, but don't the finned pads rattle like crazy?

 

[ferret]

I use Discobrakes' Kevlar pads.
They have braking characteristics similar to metalic pads, but without the noises.

https://www.discobrakes.com/?s=0&t=0&

I also only use 200mm rotors (on both electric and human powered bikes), no reason to compromise braking using by smaller rotors.

Avner.

 

[giantfan]

Bicycle components are under sized for your speed and load requirements no matter how you apply them.

That's the simple truth that eludes many riding beefed up e-bikes

 

[MarkJohnston]

Bicycle components are under sized for your speed and load requirements no matter how you apply them.

That's the simple truth that eludes many riding beefed up e-bikes

I disagree. These brakes are meant for down hill riding. Other guys are much heavier than me.

 

[Chalo]

Bicycle components are under sized for your speed and load requirements no matter how you apply them.

That's the simple truth that eludes many riding beefed up e-bikes

I disagree. These brakes are meant for down hill riding. Other guys are much heavier than me.

There's a much larger, deeper, and more experienced knowledge base that says you're wrong. Bicycle disc brakes have been engineered for a limited, defined use case, which makes them fundamentally different than rim brakes or motor vehicle brakes that have been vetted in the field for generations.

Downhill racing isn't what you're doing, and isn't even harder necessarily. Remember those guys are trying to slow down as little as possible to clear the course.

 

[MarkJohnston]

I was using them improperly the first time. I didn't have a bleed kit so I never bled them. I twisted the hydraulic line. I would drag the brakes on hills a lot (because I had so little power from no bleed.) I would only use the front brake, never the rear. I was using metal pads which create resonance that break spokes. I had two break.

This time will be different. I have resin pads, I am using both brakes ( rim brakes on rear Chalo) I am going to perfect my braking technique and alternate brakes, much like an ABS system. No more dragging brakes. And I'm going to stay on top of bleeding.

Something internal to the caliper must've been destroyed or loosened from aforementioned. When I went to change pads and pushed the Pistons back in that's when a lost all feel at the lever.

 

[Chalo]

I was using metal pads which create resonance that break spokes.

Funny, the only disc brakes I've ever had that complained loudly were Mountain Cycle Pro-Stop with organic pads. The Hayes, Avid, and Tektro disc brakes I've had all used metal pads and didn't sing/moan unless they were really wet or contaminated.

No broken spokes to show for any of them. I would suspect the spokes first.

 

[MarkJohnston]

I forgot to mention with those brakes that broke. They would make an extremely EXTREMELY loud noise whenever they would build up heat. I tried to look it up on cycling forums to see if that was normal. The best thing I read was that it's normal for the metal sintered pads to " HOWL" I am using those types of pads. It was a very loud screeching noise, not sure if you guys have the same thing. It was so loud in fact that I people in cars would turn and look at red lights . Scrrreeeeech. :lol:

They get hot and noisy QUICK.

I wonder why the hope tech v4s are " only a half step down from a motorcycle brake" they look tiny and just like all the Shimano saints.

I have a BR-MT520/501 combo on the front of one of my bikes (the same 4-piston Shimano that you have). In my experience, it is a great brake. Basically the same performance as the Deore/SLX/XT 4-piston (even has ceramic pistons and servo-wave lever) but painted black and marketed as an OE ebike factory brake. Mine came stock with the Shimano resin pads and it was very quiet with great performance. Living in a very hilly area with long downhills on one of my daily rides, I wanted to try metallic pads.

I got a 4-pack of the best metallic pads Aliexpress had to offer for 15$. I’ve had the exact same howling/resonating problem as you. Glad I tried them first and not the 40$ Shimano metallic. The performance at the limit is good, metallic pads don’t fade. They are quiet as long as you are braking HARD. The problem is for 90% of braking they don’t get hot enough and with light to mid pressure (10-60% or so) they cause the rotor to resonate and it’s loud as hell. I have a 203mm floating rotor btw. Cleaned them way too many times to confirm although it does get a bit better when pad material is distributed on the rotor, and also, as the pads wear. I think the resonance is basically caused by too-high coefficient of friction on the pads/rotor so when they grab the rotor at lighter pressure it basically stops/moves many, many times/second (the flex in the rotor and hub allow this against the rotating wheel). This resonance has also broken spokes in a well-built front wheel. I will be switching back to resin/organic pads after my stock runs out.

This member had the same issue Chalo. I don't think it's a coincidence. My wheel is reasonable built. It's a jalco with a quando hub.

 

[Ishikawa]

I am surprised that nobody suggested a dual brake up to now. Nobody have it? I have been using a V and disc brake together on my front wheel. Works pretty well. Stops fast, no heat issue, and easy on the spokes.

 

[MarkJohnston]

Thought about it, but no. Problem solvers don't work with HYDRAULIC disc brakes. Also I'm not 100% sure the rims on the front wheel can be used with rim brakes

 

[Chalo]

Thought about it, but no. Problem solvers don't work with HYDRAULIC disc brakes. Also I'm not 100% sure the rims on the front wheel can be used with rim brakes

http://www.tektro.com/mobile/products.php?p=37

https://www.tartybikes.co.uk/hydraulic_disc_brakes/magura_shimano_twin_caliper_hydraulic_disc_brake/c558p13126.html

You can get twin caliper setups for hydraulic brakes.

We even tried a few sets of the Tektro Auriga version with big rotors at Precision Pedicabs. Though we had high hopes for them, we switched back to Avid BB7s because hydraulic bicycle brakes weren't adequate for commercial use conditions. We didn't want to be like Main Street Pedicabs, most of whose hydraulic rear brakes don't work most of the time. (Theirs aren't dual calipers; they're just hydraulic and unreliable.)

 

[99t4]

I am going to perfect my braking technique and alternate brakes, much like an ABS system.

This sounds interesting, can you explain further?

 

[MarkJohnston]

I am going to perfect my braking technique and alternate brakes, much like an ABS system.

This sounds interesting, can you explain further?

It's simple. Just alternate hard pulls of the brakes. In an accident though best bet is pull front hard. Otherwise you fish tail.

Sheldon brown had an article about this or so I thought

 

[MarkJohnston]

For the love of God people!! It's a bicycle not a motorcycle! A motorized one albeit. But think about it...

A motorcycle can go excess 200 mph+ easy. A motorcycle can go 0 to 100 in two seconds. A motorcycle weighs at least half a ton with some models easily going over a ton.

Compared that to an ebike. 120 lbs tops. Top speed?!? 35 mph. Slooooow. Torque?!! None. I probably don't even need a torque arm with my DD motor.

Clearly an ebike still falls into the " bicycle realm". Mopeds SCOOTERS Hondas 50cc are overbuilt, heavy, UGLY.

Of course motorcycle rotors have to be HUGE. THEY NEED TO stop a heavy heavy vehicle from moving at 200 mph.

 

[Chalo]

For the love of God people!! It's a bicycle not a motorcycle! A motorized one albeit. But think about it...

A motorcycle can go excess 200 mph+ easy. A motorcycle can go 0 to 100 in two seconds. A motorcycle weighs at least half a ton with some models easily going over a ton.

Okay, then. Name one. Name one single motorcycle anywhere, anywhen that weighs at least 1000 pounds, accelerates from zero to 100 miles per hour in two seconds or less (hell, make it anything under three seconds, because that's a drag racer's "two second" run), and has a top speed of at least 200 mph.

Find me a single production motorcycle (thus qualifying as a "model") weighing over 2000 pounds. So, not this one:

Everything you have said so far in this forum makes so much more sense to me now.

Are you a minor?

I'll pick a motorcycle. A very average motorcycle. Kawasaki KLR 650. It's been made for ages. It's not really a dirt bike and not really a street bike, but has things in common with both. It's neither small displacement nor large displacement. It's not heavy but not light.

Curb weight: 432 pounds claimed
Top speed: 95 mph estimated
Zero to 100 mph time: No
Zero to 60 mph time: 5.4 seconds (what weight rider, not specified)

That's not even relevant to this discussion, though. There are some amazingly slow and lightweight motorcycles and mopeds out there that don't pack any more kinetic energy than a bicyclist barreling down a hill. But none of them will use anything like a bicycle disc brake, because those are toys that would expose the manufacturer to liability for negligence. The fact that some bike discs can be tortured into doing commercial duty is mostly dumb luck. And they're not very good at it.

 

[MarkJohnston]

You know Chalo, what's childish is you trying to get Under people's skin. But I have years of experience dealing with people on the internet like you. Instead of getting into a flame war with you and having the mods step in and lock the threads or worse, boot me off endless sphere, I'm just going to let you keep talking.

Anyways ignoring your question.

FACT: Some motorcycles MODELS definitely can HIT 200
FACT: there was a showing near Compton, LOS ANGELES here with heavy half ton motorcycles. TONS OF THEM.

You're taking what I said so out of context. I never said that a half ton motorcycle could go 200 mph+. I just said heavy motorcycles need more heavy duty brakes. And that a 100 mph+ vehicle also needs heavy duty brakes.

 

[99t4]

I am going to perfect my braking technique and alternate brakes, much like an ABS system.

This sounds interesting, can you explain further?

It's simple. Just alternate hard pulls of the brakes. In an accident though best bet is pull front hard. Otherwise you fish tail.

That's it? :?
I'll pass. But it might work for you?
Not sure that's how ABS works.

 

[LewTwo]

Jeez .... I wonder how I managed to survive my youth with nothing but SA (british) IGH and a coaster brake to rely on

 

[MarkJohnston]

S.h.i.t. new brake and I stripped the bleed port. The stupid o ring. It won't stay where it's suppose to. Oil is seeping out the bottom of the lever. Man, I just read some reviews for the deore model and it doesn't look good. Lots of people with their brand new brakes arriving damaged and leaking.

This lever is toast, the metal is so soft and these are made in Malaysia not Japan.

I didn't even put much torque into it. Less than a newton meter. In fact the last one I had could take much more to torque. No it's like the o ring wasn't right.

Seems like Shimano has QC issues. Or maybe I need to pay for top of the line is stuff like the saints? Or switch brands,... hope, magura?

 

[Chalo]

Maybe you cross-threaded it, maybe you over-torqued it. It's not a fastener; it's only a seal. Not a lot of torque is needed.

You could persist in your folly, or you could get a brake that isn't as persnickety. BB7 with 200mm rotor. You won't boil it, make it leak, or contaminate the pads with brake fluid. It won't get air in the line or absorb water. Routine adjustments don't require any tools. You can use any lever pull ratio you like, including a lever with adjustable gain.

Or you can keep dicking around with leaky hobbyist junk. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[MarkJohnston]

Can I even use rim brakes with these rims? I'm thinking now I might get an avid bb7 mech disc brake + to use a generic no name rim brake. CAN I EVEN USE TWO BRAKES WITH ONE LEVER? doesnt problem solvers have something for this?

I run a generic no name rim brake in the rear. It stinks. it needs to be re adjusted all the time. There is always slack In the cable. IMO mech brakes stink.